Will Evercold be a Good FFXIV Expansion? | UNCHAINED Podcast with Xeno, Arthars and Narrlocke

I guess we should do introductions or something. Um, I am Zenosis Vex. I stream and I'm on YouTube and [ __ ] I used to be a main tank, but now I got pushed to side tank. But little do the people know is that in 8.0 the meta is going to be two side tanks. But anyway, um, so yeah, uh, if you guys want to introduce yourselves or you know, whatever. >> Oh, I don't know. I'm I'm Narlock. I don't do anything important. I do world race in the past specifically for Dawn Trail. Uh but now I'm washed up and I don't do anything. >> Yeah. Now you carry me. So, okay. >> I don't know if I would call it that. You know, I remember one of the first things you told me when you when you when you first did World Prague was you were like, "Yeah, so in the group, uh I can't remember exactly how you said it, but you were like Yeah. So, the way they referred to to the group as this guy, this guy, and Zeno's friend, which apparently was [laughter] >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. the the original forming of of uh Neverland the like was uh like a couple weeks before DSR came out and it was a mashup of uh one of the Tempest groups >> on NA and uh one of the uh angered or whatever they're called now entropy groups on EU >> and it was like four people from uh it was four people from Tempest and three people from Entropy and also Zeno's friend. >> I always thought that was funny. [laughter] >> Yeah. Anyway, Arthur. >> Uh, yeah, Amatas. Uh, I'm also Zeno's friend. Uh, how do I say? I I mean, I guess I stream also. Yeah. And, uh, I play Final Fantasy 14. Uhhuh. Used to tank, but now just play DPS and, uh, used to play on JP, but now mainly play on NA. Yeah, I guess. I guess. Yeah, that's the intro. Anything else? No. Right. >> Nope. Okay, hold on. Hold on. I gotta move my arrow. All right. So, I don't know about you guys, but when I first saw it, when I first saw the changes, I hated it. And I hated it be mostly because um I got like flashbacks of like [ __ ] just horrible decisions like that Square Enix has done with like Heaven's Ward and like a Realm Reborn and just [ __ ] like that because so a lot of people they didn't play back then. Um they didn't they they have no idea that this is not the first time that Essie has tried to do this before. This is actually like the the fourth time. I think the first was in a Realm Reborn, second was in Heaven's Ward, and third was in Stormb Blood and then after that is when they went to Shadowbringers or whatever and then they then they changed a lot. But so this is like the fourth time they've done it. They failed in Arom Reborn, they failed in Heaven's Ward, and they like half failed in Storm Blood. Um, but so this will be the fourth time that they've done this. Um, so obviously when I first saw the main tank off tank, it was a huge Oh, okay. Nars Cat just turned off his PC. That's okay. I'm going to yap anyway, so it doesn't matter. No, it's okay. It's okay. Okay, I'm going to yap anyway. So, so obviously that was a huge like that was a huge [ __ ] like red flag for me, right? Was I was getting flashbacks of like Heaven's Word because like Paladin was literally unusable. Uh, Dark Knight was supposed to main tank, but it was the worst design main tank in the history of any game I've ever played in my life. Um, warrior was an insane main tank, but it was designed as an off tank. Like, basically, they don't know what the like they don't know what the [ __ ] they're doing. Um, and so when I first heard that, I was getting flashbacks of that. Now, I don't think it's going to be that bad. Like I really don't think it's going to be that bad. But just the fact that they had like an almost perfect system and then they just ruined it or well not ruined it but then [snorts] they decided to change it like they decided to like you know reinvent the wheel. Um so I obviously when I first saw it I was like this is going to be horrible. Then I looked into it or then I like, you know, I watched it more and I was like, "Yo, yo, yo, >> my cat turned my computer off 5 minutes ago." >> No, you can knock again if you want. >> I'm not going to turn my screen. It's fine. >> Um, but um, but anyway. Yeah. So, so I hated it and then I liked it and then I looked into it again and now I'm like I don't hate it, but I'm really worried. Um, so that was my like initial thoughts. What were your guys' initial thoughts? >> Got to go first, man. >> Where are we at here? 10 seconds. >> I'm just talking about Okay. >> When they first announced the tank changes, when you first saw that slide, main tank, off tank, that What was your initial thought? So, where I'm at with the game right now is I'm like so sick of uh every expansion them turning a tank into another copy of warrior that I'm so at the point that I'm at is I'll take like anything that diversifies the role like at all. So, like to me, I'm kind of excited for it just because having two separate roles means there's like two completely different design spaces that they might like go into, which would hopefully lead to less homogenization. But, >> you know, there's more more to talk about that later in that there are some things that don't look very good about that and some things that I'm hopeful for, but so I think I'm positive on it. I don't mind the main tank off tank thing. the same way they have healers split into like one two different kinds of healers. >> I think that has relatively worked pretty well. >> Okay. For me, right, my first impression is I'm kind of with Na here like you know you know that I mean maybe maybe people don't know uh so I didn't want to talk too much about it intro so we can talk about it when we talk about this job. I used to be I used to play I used to play tank main tank. I used to play 1.0 tanking. I played warrior. I played paladin and then 2.0 I played warrior. I tried warrior and then I played paladin but warrior was really bad so you have to play paladin and it doesn't matter whether you're main or off tank you always play paladin for both until they fix it right and after they fixed it yes warrior start to become the main tank but >> because I played uh warrior paladin the only two jobs back then I didn't mind who main who off because I feel like both tanks are different unique in a way and then when I play 3.0 old Dark Knight came out. So that is like perfect for me because I came from FF11 of a Dark Knight uh DPS player and when they make it a tank I find it very interesting. So I tried it and like you said they they obviously want to make it a main tank thingy because you know they have this like dark dance they have this like parry into reprisal. So clearly they want dark knight to like you know take damage and right but same for paladin you got shoe swipe and stuff but it didn't really work. So >> the player is become the one that shaped the meta right you know eventually we are like oh [ __ ] you know you need duff that debuff and then warrior because they whole hit better and paladin just be >> so >> I ended up just stop playing paladin but I only play warrior and dark knight ever since because there was still the identity like you said they want one to be off tank and they want it to be main tank and eventually you realize that again not sure whether this is what square Dark Knight became the better off tank, you know, and then warrior become the better main tank because empathy and damage, right? So, it just work like that, work like that, work like that until 5.0. Now, again, I'm a tank player, right? So, when when a when a new tank come out in 5.0, Gun breaker came out, like, oh [ __ ] let's try it. Okay, but at that point, I think they start to shift away from main and off tank. Really, they kind of want everybody to just be able to do both. Except Paladin is still like [ __ ] main tank back then, right? You don't have any I don't think any combo back then for paladin have any HP recovery right but every other job you have some sort of like a health leech so you know work some sort like a regen so but but it didn't felt like you needed paladin to main off tank or there there wasn't any main off role but once we go into 6 7.0 Then you realize that okay it's homogenized really like N says they want to make every tank like one play style and every every tank is like pressing one combo and then you have one big hit and then you evolve around playing that one big hit in your burst. So now suddenly it's gone like the main off tank is gone and for me as a tank player that is exactly why I quit playing tank because okay 2 3 4.0 5.0 I used to play other tanks because I could do different things in the party, right? I play main tank, I do this, I play off tank, I do this, I offer different things. But when Gunbreaker came out, you realize that it doesn't [ __ ] matter. I play Gunbreaker, I can be main, I pick it off, it's fun, it's like a DPS, and it does more damage. So completely just make me not want to level any other tanks anymore. And then 6 7.0 is like, yeah, I'm done tanking, you know, because it's there's no more like it's too homogenized already. So I think they tried before it work or don't work I guess it depends on how you look at it and then they homogenize it after it works or don't work I guess it's up to you but I agree with N here after seven expansion six seven expansion 67 I'm sorry I throw it there uh and I'm like bro just I want to thank again give me some excitement so I'm sorry if I go a big round to the the the the the point in time now what is my first impression when I look at it myself say yes that's good like I don't mind playing a different tank for a different role because rather than just playing Gunbreaker for me I use my own experience rather than Gunbreaker just do both and then every now and then try Duckn and realize that okay I might go with Gbreaker because Gunbreaker Gunbreaker does both better at that point right so now it's like oh wow I can choose to play Wish now I'm forced to play both if I want to be into tanking if I want to tank I'm forced to go both I want to I have to learn main I have to learn off and maybe through that with the job identity that they're going to come away maybe I will find it fun to thank again but the thing that puzzle me is the way they split it because we done you know we talk I talk about we done um warrior um is the main tank you know um dark knight is like okay you can m it's better off and then paladin is just usually just off so now it's like wait why did they make paladin main wait why is warrior off and then the first impression is yeah zeno is going to demand you know. So, that was my very first >> I didn't get I didn't get I didn't get mad. I didn't get upset because Warrior was off tank. Warrior [music] was Warrior's like pretty much always been designed as one or attempted to be. I got like >> I got upset because they're because I have no faith in them to do it right because I was getting like flashbacks of like [ __ ] Heavens Warden and [ __ ] Bro, >> you went over like a lot of points in a row there, Arthurs. I kind of want to like talk more about I guess like the reason why I feel like tanks are so homogenized right now is uh like you said in in Shadowbringers that's when they kind of like standardized the defensive cooldowns across the tanks and it like kind of worked fine in Shadowbringers like you know some people complained a little bit about it but like it wasn't the worst thing ever because at least like offensively they all still played pretty differently and then warrior was by far like the most popular tank in in Shadow Shadowbringers and everyone liked it because you know people like pressing inner release and getting three huge fell cleaves and like yeah we we [ __ ] love that. >> I was against that change by the way. I was always against that change. >> That's a whole other thing. Yeah. How there was a version of warrior that only existed for one patch in Storm Blood. I was also not happy with the way they changed that. But like you know it kind >> remind me later. I'm going to rant about that. >> Yeah that's that ship is long gone by this point. But >> yeah, >> then so in Shadowbringers kind of everything got like defensively homogenized which wasn't the worst thing ever. You know, it kind of worked fine. >> And then people uh Square saw that everyone like Warrior and then the expansion after that they're like well Dark Knight's not that popular. So what if we just make Delirium a button that you press and you get three big blood spillers, right? And then Dark Knight turned into Warrior 2. And then in Dawn Trail, they're like, "Well, what if we just make a Blood Festa button that you press and you get three big Lion Hearts every 60 seconds?" And now Gunbreaker is warrior 3. So we're at a point where like you have Paladin and three warriors. It feels like to me at least. But >> well, Gunreaker was scuffed ever since ever since past Shadowbringers >> because >> it was the best at Shadowbringer. Perfect at Shadowbringer. Yeah. Like they [ __ ] it up after Shadowbringers by adding the extra cartridge and by adding Double Down and all that [ __ ] because they had no idea what the [ __ ] they were doing. Like they added >> the third cartridge was terrible. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like literally every change that they made to Gunbreaker made it worse and more unplayable. It made it more like rigid and just horrible. And so there was so like because they did that [ __ ] there was only like so many things I could do to fix it. because they're not going to go back to shadow breakers >> because see that's the that's the thing about the job right because you know I there are some job I mean I I guess since we are talking about gum breaker I mean it kind of apply also to every other job it's like the moment they decided that the moment they the moment they decided that they want to okay this is the final product that we think that the game should be played the thing that they do is to add an off GCD and then they add a GCD in general this is what they do And what they don't realize is that that doesn't really will always make the game better. Sometimes it will just make the job worse. And a lot of jobs suffer for that. Dragon also suffered for that. Red Mage also suffered for that. >> Reaper suffer obviously. >> Yes. Exactly. So a lot of jobs suffer for that. Which I I I don't know whether we were derail over here, but this is the reason why they have to think about going from reborn to evolve, right? But you know that's the topic for later. So we stick with the tank. Yeah. >> Yeah. The best the best version of warrior in my opinion was 4.1 and a lot of people didn't get to experience it but 4.1 warrior was in [music] like it was the most skill intensive in my opinion it was the most rewarding and it also rewarded the highest damage for the >> wait let me stop you one sec here. Is that the point where they did the um gauge the the stupid five gauge and the shaking it off? >> It was after that >> the Stormb Blood Warrior was um >> the original Stormb Blood Warrior was when inner release was like a 15 to 20 second buff that made your fell cleaves cost half instead of free. >> Mhm. Yeah, they were both 20. You stacked your buffs and it was awesome. >> Yeah. And you had you had inner release and berserk at the same time still. So you would be in berserk and your fell cleaves would cost half. So warrior had like a really >> strict rotation because you wanted to get like exactly 100 gauge right when you were bursting. >> Yeah, it was very it was very rewarding but also very punishing. It was it was very difficult to like get uh like play optimally or whatever. Yeah. And crit also gave you gauge too. So that was awesome. That was another like small optimization they took away after they made the change in I believe it was 4 point um what 4.2 >> 3.1 I think. >> No, it was like the it was like the patch of Kefka actually. >> Yeah. Oh, was it? >> Yeah, it was like the patch of >> Kevka for two patches. >> They just changed it. Yeah. >> Uh you a bit cuz I remember I warrior. >> Yeah. No. Um, you could play 4.1 warrior on on Yukob cuz I cuz I remember there I had this god run one time where I crit like I think it was like four out of my five fell cleaves. I like crit all of them uh under the golden buff and I like it was very nice. But anyway, yeah. So, uh, >> another thing that, uh, Arthur's brought up, sorry, I just wanted to like finish the points that I was thinking about when Arthurs was talking was like I thought about it a little bit more and I realized I think I don't actually like really care about the main tank off tank thing like whether it is there or not because uh, >> yeah, same. I don't either. >> Like I think it's like actually fine either way. >> Mhm. My my Okay. Okay. So, so here is Okay. Here is my biggest concern with the main tank off tank is that they do [music] it right. And like me and you were talking about like all right cuz at the end of the day and this is so weird. I don't know why people think this but it doesn't matter like which tank has threat on the boss. There's more like >> there's there's there's so much more involved than that simple. Like that's like such little dick energy, man. It's [ __ ] weird, man. It's [music] it's really weird. But like there's so much more involved than just which tank has threat on the boss because the way that they're going to do the off tank main tank is going to create issues in this game. So like one of the issues like they and me and you were talking about this the other day. They didn't even get it right step one and step one >> let me I'll pull up the slide real quick of like >> okay >> how they said they wanted to do it. So like step one is for whatever reason they gave the off tank the party mitt but the main tank I guess the counterattack. So I'm going to tell you right now based on the past that like from what I can see one of two things is going to happen. either the main tank is going to be excluded from from like optimization because they can't they're not going to be as good at helping the party as the off tank. Um or two uh they're going to Yeah. So like you're you're not going to be able to run two main tanks. So like I don't know how they're going to do now. Now now obviously this is all speculation, right? This is all speculation because we need to see we need to see what an off tank has and we need to see what a shield healer has. >> So, okay. Sorry, I pulled up the slide now. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, yeah. So, basically, uh skill at taking direct damage, actions to counter enemy attacks. Okay. So, the the two most important parts here are skilled at lowering damage taken by allies and actions to lower enemy damage because Okay. So, um, so like cuz there's a lot of people that don't that don't know about >> we can just like we should like uh just to take it like one point at a time. Like you see starting on the main tank is skilled at taking direct damage. Like pretty experienced in tanking, right? >> We can all probably pretty immediately agree that uh it's pretty unlikely that they're going to ever tune boss damage high enough that this is probably ever going to actually matter, right? Like this basically doesn't matter. >> Yeah. >> Yep. because they're going to be too scared to make bosses so dangerous that you actually need this because they want like less skilled people to be able to kill bosses, right? >> And >> because apply in before also because you remember warrior actually suck at taking direct damage. Guess what happened? Warrior became main tank anyway. >> So this first point is completely irrelevant in my opinion. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And also this this this also goes with with J with boss with boss design >> because one thing I've seen like people say is that oh well they're going to make a main tank buster. Like I that's just not I I mean it's okay. It's possible but like I just don't see that happening. Like they're going to make a buster that only a main tank can can take. That that doesn't that doesn't make any sense. >> Yeah. That that doesn't make any sense. that they never done anything like that before. And not only that, but this this main tank off tank [ __ ] is only starting in uh 8.0. So there's still all of this other content in the game that you're going to have to be able to tank with an off tank. So are they going to go back and add that [ __ ] Like, and another thing is this is is if that's the case, okay, if that's the case, then how are you, excuse me, how are you going to do double busters? How are you going to do double auto attacks? So, I personally don't think that they are going to design fights around an off tank and main tank. Even though they said they were going to, I don't believe it. I h I don't have faith in them. Now, I could be proven wrong. I could. But I still remember all the fuckups they did in the past, which is why that I'm extremely hesitant to think that they're going to actually do anything like this. Now, they could, but like think about a Savage fight. So, you're telling me that you're going to have to have one of each tank, one of them is going to be a main tank. B? Like, that just doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make any sense to me. Like, there's no way they're going to do that. And >> yeah, plus the fact that like there's going to be, you know, quant uh content like quantum like fourman content that you have to be able to use any tank for, right? >> Yeah. So, >> there's like an extra wrinkle in the fact that like, oh, maybe they'll make like the main tanks way tankier. There's an extra wrinkle in that and that we've seen Paladin and we've seen that they've barely changed Paladin at all, which means the only way this could actually be true is if they take multiple cool downs off of all of these other tanks, right? Yeah, that would make them basically completely inept at four player content. >> Yeah, that's another thing I was going to say was that since we've already seen Paladin, they didn't really take anything away in the evolve mode. They took Bullwark, but you can sheltron more, so it makes up for it. So, because of that, they're they're not they didn't really take anything away. And you can also use reborn mode on the other tanks, too. So, let's say that they do take stuff away from from evolved on the other tanks. Okay. Well, you're just going to use reborn then because they didn't change like hollowed grounds cool down. Now, all that's subject to change obviously, but they didn't change that. So, like unless they take away CDs from the other tanks like you said, then I wonder how they're going to guarantee a main tank spot because that's the whole point of this, right? The whole point is to have one main tank and one off tank. But the problem is is how are we going to get there? And I don't think they're capable of that because I just man like I said earlier they've tried this three times and every time they failed like and in Heaven's Ward they they they failed. That was literally the worst tank meta I've ever seen in any game in my life actually. So like and I mean I don't think it's bad but yeah like in heaven >> really bad like Paladin is straight up not playable. I mean if you remember Frosty you remember we always make fun of him play Paladin back then remember? >> Yeah >> it was really bad. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, like they can't really remove CDs from off tanks because the off tanks still have to be able to tank past content and future content with fourman stuff because we're going to because assuming we're going to get like criterion, we're going to get like other [ __ ] like that too, right? And so it's just going to be inter like we need to see an off tank because if an off tank >> all this thing like all this thing that we we [clears throat] can only speculate now right is that >> like like N says there's just no way they can make a content that you have to have made them [clears throat] I do think that they said something along the line of uh you don't need it but having it will make it will make clearing high-end content a little bit easier. So I think that's probably what it's just going to be like even if you want to bring two off tank maybe you have one less cool down or maybe you have one less I don't know insert button or maybe somehow it will do you know slightly more damage because of the counter mechanic but in terms of can you do every content with two main tank can you do any content with two of tank I'm pretty sure you can >> I don't think that's mainly for casuals you know >> since [clears throat] you mentioned it just to like >> we so this point we already talked about this point doesn't matter at all. Skilled at taking direct damage. We don't like this. This is a a real problem as a design goal. >> Actions to counter enemy attacks. What we saw of Paladin is this is essentially completely a function of DPS, which means this is going to be completely reliant on DPS tuning, which means in order for this to ever matter, the main tank has to do more DPS than the off tank, right? >> If the off tank does more DPS, you don't care about the counter, right? >> It's even easier, right? You don't have to play the counter play and you just do more or equal damage. Why do you bother with the counter, you know? >> So, this is tuning reliant and not necessarily like utility or or boss design reliant. And then the off tank side here, skilled at lowering damage taken by allies. Uh like we've talked about this before and and like the best conclusion for this, how they could design this so that you would want one off tank is basically to just put Storm's Path back in the game and like make it non-stacking between like a generic Storm Path. And that's and that's going to be a problem because imagine if you can stack the storm's path. Like even like even if they just put Storm's path in the game, that's already going to be super huge cuz that was literally the best debuff in the game back in the day. It was literally the best. >> It was insanely good. Yeah. Like it's the the problem with >> that's why warrior is there. That's a reason why warrior was there. Yeah. Like the problem with this slide is that from their design goals here, it seems like it it's going to be really easy for them to make you want to have one off tank. Like you can you can clearly see how like you're like, "Oh, we have to have an off tank." >> Yes. >> In our like party comp. The main tank side here is like really questionable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So like I don't actually think the off tanks are in danger. I think the main tanks are actually in danger because the because like you know like I've like we've said this before but the tank is the least like or in danger the least like of all the party members the tank is the one that's going to die the last like even during a buster because you're just so strong. So the problem is the party damage. So, if you can stack this off tank party damage while also being able to survive busters, which I'm like, you know, I'm almost positive you will >> if if you're a good player, you will this will almost certainly you will find a way to survive like almost no matter what. >> Yeah. So, I think we need just real quick. I think we need to tell people why that that first one or I guess the first the first two po or the the two points on off tank are so important is because back in the day when they tried to do this, you had multiple uh abilities that would lower the enemy's damage. You had Storm's Path, which was the best in the game. It was free. It was a It was a 10% 100% up >> time. Paladin. Paladin had strength down and dark knight had intelligence down and warrior basically had everything down. It was it was just both like glued together combined in better in every way. >> Yeah. And it also and it also mitigated darkness damage >> as well. But that's >> Yeah, that's like a different I guess that's a different combo, but my Oh. Oh, and you could stack them because reprisal was specific to Dark Knight. So you could stack reprisals 10% plus storm's path 10%. Which was [ __ ] insane. >> Also was though that's the thing on a lot of >> on a lot of raidwides uh you like a lot of raid wides you could also stack delirium on top of it like the old delirium the one that put intelligence down. So actually that's that's his exact situation where we're talking about where >> if you had warrior and dark knight you had two permanent boss damage downs and if you brought a paladin you just lost one of them and like that was a big reason why you wanted to bring dark knight >> that's why no one no one takes the palad and also I mean the damage is so so >> also the DPS and also they couldn't survive anything but like the the delirium basically for free permanently reducing the boss's damage was like a big reason and like is would be a relevant reason here also like if if so these these they cannot let this stack like no matter what like this has to be a generic >> I I think the old I mean okay after so many years I mean we we talk about you know we talk about all these like stuff they tried all this is like you know the very first expansion right heaven's word after 13 years I don't think they will be that dumb to let off tank >> I do >> have to stack like I think they are very simple it's evolved they just going to make storms path come back I'm pretty certain in some sort of way and every other off tank will have that button but I don't think they will stack. If they do, >> then is still stupid. >> I think that they're going to stack. And here's why I think they're going to stack. Because they're going to try to make them less homogenized, and then they're going to realize that it was a [ __ ] mistake. That's what I think. >> Yeah. If they do that, it will it will suck. Then main tank will be in danger. Yeah. So, >> I don't I don't think they're going to >> I don't think they will do that. I don't think they would do I mean, don't get me wrong, like, like, see, okay, here's the thing about all these changes, okay? Cuz I want to be clear about all these changes. >> I don't even care. Like, I don't care if I'm wrong or if I'm right because I think that this is so interesting. Like, I'm here for the [ __ ] storm. You know what I mean? We're either going to be in the bunker because there's going to be a [ __ ] storm outside or we're going to be celebrating in the streets because they got it right. So, I don't really So, I don't care which one. I just find it very interesting. >> I I have a like a actually a very specific point as to why I think that about about the storms path like debuff. And the reason like the reason is this is exactly this is the literal exact reason why shields don't stack because if you could stack sage and scholar shield like sucker on top of each other it would be so obscenely broken that like you would only ever play those two jobs frog always no matter what. They don't. And >> that's the exact reason why the shields don't stack. >> Yeah, but I don't think that the shields can be comparable to a debuff though cuz you can stack debuffs in the game already. Like you could stack like faint with add and [ __ ] >> I mean, they can just make it two different debuffs that don't stack the same way that shields are two different buffs that don't stack. >> Yeah. No, they can't. >> The fact that uh shields don't stack means they're like cognizant of this like >> possibility. like they're they're like very specifically aware of like a problem this would like present. >> I guess I think I just have no faith. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think that's what I don't blame you. I don't blame you. >> I think it's just I have no faith. >> They [laughter] like like you said they done it so many times before and they failed and now they are revisiting it. But they did and should have learned a lot from the last 10 years and now that they want to do it again. >> I think it should be better. But will it be better? We don't know because I want able to work. I want this main off tank to work because you know like I mentioned in the intro, right? Able to play both tank or understand what the strengths of each tank and then you as a main tank player can venture into both main and off tank role and hopefully not homogenize so that you can play them completely differently. I think it's really fun to think about right and I think because right now right let's just say you are looking for a static let's just say you're in the static and then people is like which then can you play? I mean the answer is pretty simple. Oh, I can play all. Oh, which uh do you want to play or off or main? Oh, I don't care. Now it's just like everybody can play anything and do anything. So now if they introduce this main off and if they make it work, if they really can draw the line between these two point uh these four points and then I think that player will be like there will be more skill expression. Okay, I can play this as a main tank. Okay, so you are only a main tank player and I can also do this as off but I'm more comfortable main. But hey, can you play off tank and still main tank? Oh, you know what I mean? Like I feel like it's something interesting to think about. You know, maybe the meta will change. Maybe players will have more responsibility. They will have to be better than just press three buttons. >> See, you know, so for me that is the that is like the exciting part, you know. But they have to make it work. If they don't make it work, like you say, we're going to come off the bunker and we're going to be like, well, here we go again, you See, I think they can make it work because Okay, so we'll we'll talk more about like evolved in the the the evolve mode and reborn mode later, but the reason why I think they can't make it work is because instead of evolved and reborn, they just should have had main tank off tank on every tank so that that way you can play Yes. So that way you can literally play any tank and do any role and get the benefit. You just turn on your main tank stands, turn on your off tank stands. >> Okay. See, see now that is where I don't trust them to be able to do so much changes at once. Like this is a good thought. If they make this work and then they think about, okay, what if we just let >> both tank be able to do both? Because I think like you I don't really trust them to make too big of a changes. I mean that's why everybody is scared right now, right? >> I think they can make one thing work and they should have learned from the past and maybe they will make this work. If this works I agree next time in the future. I mean it's not just uh tanks even healers right because they done it before astrologian you can like okay I want to play astrologian I can play barrier and shield so even even maybe even ra mage right okay I can play pure DPS because that's what ra mage is about in you know other final fantasy especially 11 I can play ray mage as a full DPS or I can play rage as a full support DPS so I think that might extend to in the future but now 8.0 with already so much and Mr. Prime one person have to do 21 job. Can he make two versions of those job? I I mean for now probably not. Just let them cool first, you know. >> So So just to like give an example [clears throat] of like the So right now we have Reord and Evolved. Well, if you have like the main tank mode and the off tank mode, there's a lot of different things that they could do with that. But what like what they're doing with it currently they already [ __ ] up and that is they're not giving the you and me and Nar were talking about this the other day. >> So I was uh I was going to lead into that after like another point I wanted to make. >> Okay. Okay. Go ahead and make your point and then we'll talk about that. Yeah. >> I I had like two more so like two I had two more points I wanted to do on this slide in particular. >> Okay. The first one is that I wanted to like talk about this very last bullet point like a little more specifically. >> And this is so like you read this and you see uh like presumably the off tanks would have like extra party m on top of their debuff, right? >> Yes. >> That's that would be why this would be two different bullet points. This one on the bottom is like storm's path and this one on the top is they should have like an extra party mitigation. But the problem with that is because we've seen Paladin, we've seen that Paladin is almost completely unchanged from how it is now. Paladin already has extra party mitigation now like in the current game than all these off tanks, right? Paladin is better at mitigating the party by like a lot, right? >> And so what are they going to still have reprisal, they still have Divine Veil, and they still have Passage of Arms. And Passage of Arms has an extra followup, too. So it's even better >> and clemency and cover. >> And and clemency and cover. Yeah. Right. >> So the huge problem with that is since they didn't take anything away from Paladin, this is another thing. There's a big problem with the fact that Paladin is almost completely the same in this slide. And that is uh since Paladin is almost completely unchanged, they still have a just a ton of party mitigation. That means the onus is on the design of the off tanks now where they have to greatly change how the off tanks are in order to make this work. So if the off tanks are barely changed, like they're going to have to add like three party mits to all these tanks to make them better than paladin party mits, right? Cuz right now as a war, you have like shake it off in reprisal. And in order to be better than a paladin at that, they're going to have to add something to like compete with passage of arms and they're going to have to add an extra thing on top of that, right? >> Yes. Yeah. >> So the partymate creep is like on an off tank in order to make this work would have to be gargantuan. So you would have So let's just assume that the main that the that the new main tank [music] has the exact same like amount of mint as a paladin, right? Let's just let's just say they're going to copy paste it >> presumably. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So in that case then all three off tanks if they want the off if they want this slide to be true they're going to have to do exactly what you said. They're going to have to give all of the off tanks at least at least two more Because right now, Paladin's one ahead. So, they're going to have to give it one to equal Paladin and then another one to make it better because they're supposed to specialize in this, right? So, that means that you're going to have two off tanks with like four [ __ ] party mitt. So, between the two of them, you're going to have like eight. That is insane. That's crazy. >> That's more than >> That's like more than That's like That's like reaching healers or more. That's crazy. So, you're going to have tanks with more mit than healers, >> which I don't necessarily think that is inherently a bad thing, but like >> it just it's a very drastic change >> to like to make this design go true. >> Mhm. >> And another So, like piggybacking off of that is uh I really dis >> Well, of course, we're assuming it because we can't do anything else. We're assuming what we saw, right? We talked about this the other day, Zeno, where like in other MMOs, uh, like the tried andrue tank dynamic that happens in other MMOs. >> Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. This what we're talking >> what should what should happen here is like, >> you know, there's a lot of like people that are seem like upset that off tank looks like they're like a basically like a debuff [ __ ] right? >> Mhm. Like the the triedand-true dynamic that like people want to see is the main tank should be the support [ __ ] with like extra mitigation and like support for the party and the off tank should be like a big DPS guy, right? This that would be something that would immediately make it so that you want a main tank and an off tank. >> Yeah, and that's like the simplest thing. >> The main tank could just have storms path. You automatically want one. The off tank can just do more DPS, but it doesn't have Storm's path. And that's like instantly you want a a main tank and an off tank and it works, right? >> Yeah. And like and it also fits the like job fantasy where like you know paladin players you know like you would want a paladin to be supportive and like warrior, dark knight, gunreaker, those are tanks that like you want to do big damage, right? You want to be like a tanky guy that does big damage and can't die. And as a paladin you want to like be supportive, right? That would be like a dynamic that would instantly work. But like the way they split it here is like so strange where they're going to have to make the main tanks do more DPS and they're going to have to make the off tanks have like the debuff, which seems kind of backwards. Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't make sense because like why would you give like why would you give the main tank like sorry why wouldn't you give them some type of like ability down or something like that it it it just it the way that they split it just creates more problems than like you don't gain anything by doing this and I I think I think that's the biggest that's the biggest thing that a lot of people aren't seeing. What are we gaining by splitting it like this? Because based on what they showed on Paladin, it's not [ __ ] dehomogenizing them because they didn't even change Paladin. As a matter of fact, they actually took abilities away from Paladin. They took the entire atonement combo away because you're supposed to focus on this counterattack, which the counterattack isn't even that intricate. It's three counterattacks a minute. That's what it comes down to. It's just going to be you're going to counterattack three times a minute, that's it. So, is that more because to me that's not more fun than the atonement combo. Like, it might be more fun at first, for the first couple weeks, but then after the couple weeks, you're going to do your opener, going to pop your pre-pop Sheltron. Okay, there's one counter. Then you're going to wait for either the buster, you're going to do another one, there's another counter. Okay, so now you're done. You're just spamming one, two. You know what I mean? like it's it's it's not it's not going to it's not in my opinion I don't think it's going to be I think this would be dumbed down because when I originally saw it I was like okay cool you're going to get to do like wreck every 40 seconds instead of a minute okay that's pretty cool but the am like the amount of buttons you hit or whatever because they also took off um they also took off one of the offGCDs and your dash no longer does does damage which is good because I I don't think dashes [music] should do damage, but I also don't think that dash should have cover. I think that's [ __ ] horrible. You You should be able [laughter] You should be able to put cover. Like, it's really strange to me that they kept cover on the dash. And the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that they just copy pasted it from PvP. There was no thought behind it. There was no thought process behind that because >> I mean that one is that one is going to be the first thing that go there's no way that will stay like that is just oh whoopsie you know because screen yeah like immediately right when I saw that the cover was on dash I'm talking like within 5 seconds I was like no this is horrible because what if you need to cover someone and there's a [ __ ] pit or an AoE or something in between you and the person that you need to cover. Well, that it was it was [ __ ] nice to use this an expansion ago. Guess I'm just [ __ ] now. Like, what? That's what I mean. Like, what are we gaining here? Because with every expansion, we should try to gain something. You know what I mean? So, what exactly is it that we're trying to gain? And if they're their goal is to dehomogenize the jobs, splitting them in this way is the laziest way they could possibly [ __ ] do it. like you can have all the tanks do this. >> This is a little bit Okay, I think this is way too thinking way too deep, which is not a bad thing obviously because this game is not new, right? This game is really 30 years. There are things that they tried, there are things that they failed, there are things that they succeed, there are ways that they want us to play, but we don't play their way. We forge the meta. But the thing is right now we and and this is on them. like why do they show uh Paladin and then bring out this slide? In order for them to bring out this slide and like really convince people that this is the philosophy they going for and will work, they need to show us how an off thing is >> because we are missing very important information here because all this that we think and you know not gain or gain anything, we don't know. We need to see how a warrior, a gunreaker and a dark knight is before we can draw the conclusion. Hopefully Berlin we will see it but right now it's just like a bottomless well we would be talking about and then they will be maybe watching this and like laughing their ass off like just wait just wait we don't know you know >> because because okay they they could get it right like I I I don't want anybody to think that that I'm all doom and gloom cuz I'm not like I want them to get it right because if they get it right then that means the game is going to be better than what it is now. So I want them to get it right. It's just I do have some concerns, right? Because they have this is the fourth time they [ __ ] tried this [ __ ] you know, and it's like I feel like that they should have shown a main tank and an off tank because of this change. >> Yes. >> So, I actually uh when you were talking about the things you don't like that they did change on Paladin, I think I actually diverge from you a lot there. actually like a lot of the things that you said you didn't like about uh about the cover on dash and uh uh what was the other thing? Cover on dash. >> Uh I didn't like that they removed atonement but >> oh and the and the the counterattack. So the reason why I like those is right now like one of the big problems I have with like the current design of the game is the way that your characters like abilities and rotation almost like barely interact at all with the boss in the encounter. there like you're kind of just doing the same rotation always for every boss and the only thing that changes with the boss is just where you walk in the room. >> And I think that's like a really bad problem that this game has right now. Actually really I I really like the way that you like jump to someone when you cover them or like the counterattacks makes you like pay more attention to the encounter because it's like it's more it's more interactive with like the encounters I guess and I I think that is going to counter excited for that. >> I just don't like that they removed atonement for it as all. I think they should have kept atonement. No, but I really do like the counterattack. I think it's cool. >> I I I actually really like the the cover on dash like on a 30 second cool down. I think that's gonna be awesome. And I think it's going to be it's also going to be awesome the way you have to figure out not how not to kill yourself with it. I don't know. >> I think it's going to be incredibly frustrating when you can save someone and you can't dash to them. And yeah, I think >> Yeah, but think about how awesome it's going to be when you do manage to pull it off. >> I'd rather just I'd rather like a [ __ ] >> I'd rather just cover, man. >> I think what's going to happen I think what's going to happen is you want to do it one time and be like, "Oh, that was so cool." And then that situation will like never happen again and you're going to be like, "Oh man, I [ __ ] hope they change this shit." >> I don't know. I'm I'm really excited for it. I I'm I'm really positive on that. That's that's all >> I think that of the two roles the main tank role like and this again is purely speculation because we haven't seen the off tank but just based on the cooldowns Paladin had based on its uh hollow ground was still 7 minutes but again they could change it. It's all subject to change, but we have to go by what we saw, you know, so obviously we're going to go by what we saw. Plus, it's just fun to speculate. But anyway, so I the reason I think the main tank role is actually more in danger than the off tank is because of all that [ __ ] we were talking about with the party mid, you know, you you're going to, you know, you're going to be able to mitigate more on the party. But what if the off tank does the same damage? Or what if the off tank does just a little bit less? Your even if the off tank does a little bit less, if they have like two extra party mits, you are going to take them 100% over the [ __ ] main tank. Like there's going to be no [ __ ] question, man. because you are not going to lose a fight over like half a percentage of damage from one of your party members. You know what I mean? Not when you have these huge benefits of what the off tank can potentially bring. So that's why we were talking like earlier when they [ __ ] up at step one. If they were going to do the off tank main tank, I think they should have done what Nar said and they should have made the main tank be the support [ __ ] and the off tank should have been the DPS [ __ ] That's what I think. That's like the classic the classic main tank off tank [ __ ] But the fact they didn't do that is just weird to me. I just feel like it's this is all 13 years of playing this game mentality kicking in, you know, because for me I feel that all tanks should just do the same amount of damage just like DPS, just like a caster. All these four tanks should just do exactly the same amount of damage. But the difference would be if you can minmax that counter as a main tank, you will gain just slightly that ever more. But that is that little bit that an off tank can never make up because off tank is just you know hit the boss ass you know you are just off tanking you don't have any special mechanic your mechanic is just put a debuff and your mechanic is just make the party able to take damage better now I know that suck from from an optimization um from a let's say a passer standpoint that suck because that means your off tank might never reach a ceiling because it's just going to be >> overall x amount of damage whereas a main tank played right in the right situation and optimize all your block and your counter will means that you will always do X plus one damage. I think that's what I want to see in this scenario. Right. >> In this scenario, >> they it's a lot of work for them to like make it happen. Like the job has to be so unique, so different. All the jobs have to play differently and then you know different people have different sort of fun. It have to be something for everybody. And it used to be five jobs. I mean if we get a fifth one and they keep the current philosophy it would have been fine job playing different way and different roles main or off and it will work but now you are forced to two main three off and now you are forced to only be settled for this type of optim optimization or DPS so that that that is that that is going to be very very difficult and and that doesn't apply just for tanks I think also for healer and also for DPS because if I would I mean now that I say this out loud a lot of people is probably like wait a second if every DPS do the same damage. That sounds boring. If every tank do the same damage, it sound boring, right? But not necessary because as long as unique comes in like your like your mele right now, all meies are extremely very very close right now. Closer than ever, they will be right at [music] the moment. But all of them are very unique except for Reaper, which is broken. But if they can nail it for tanks, I think it's going to be, you know, it's going to be fun. But really, without the other tanks to look at their kit, we really don't know what's going to happen. So like I I and they never mentioned will we see more of all these um evolve showcase in Berlin or in Tokyo. We should say it. >> We should. Yeah. >> Yeah. I hope we do because based on just so limited showcase >> there's going to be so much question mark before 8.0 you know. >> Yeah. So >> I think uh there's also another like very not only like possible but probably more likely than not scenario and that's they they just also barely change these things off tanks. >> Oh yeah, >> it might just not even barely it might just barely be any different except that they get like storm's path or something and like it's exactly the same otherwise which is like basically what Paladin is. >> Yeah. Well, see then it Yeah. Then it begs a question. Okay. Well then why even split them in the first place? >> Yep. So like, oh, oh, here's here's one quick thing that I want to that I want to talk about. So like, and this this is warrior specific. Um, so by doing this, if they are wanting warrior uh to off tank, that is going to absolutely destroy all of its identity right now. Um, now that's okay. That's okay as long as they give it something else to make up for it. But one of the main things that I love about warrior is the fact that I can selfheal and the fact that like I can take a lot of damage and then equilibrium right back up or I can combine like thrill and equilibrium. Like I think that's cool. It's the only tank that can do that. The only one. All of the other tanks rely way more on mit whereas warrior relies on like mit HP and self-healing. That's like so you know uh like if you think about it like defensively warrior is the most unique and it it by by putting them as off tank which again is fine. They are completely stripping it of all of its uniqueness because if you're not if you're designed to not take damage or not take very much damage well then what the [ __ ] are you doing? So, and again, that's okay, but what are they going to add to it? Like, are they going to add like >> um are they going to bring back a DPS ability? Are they going to bring back a DPS stance? Are they going to bring like a DPS cooldown? Are they going to bring back uh because I will say this, it's going to be really [ __ ] lame if the only thing you do as offang warrior is nent flash people. That is going to be really [ __ ] lame. That's going to be boring as [ __ ] >> Okay, this one. this one. I mean, there's a lot of echo around the room regarding this one because it's not just warrior. It's every job. I think every job is afraid of that identity that is being taken away because of this massive change to, you know, every job's game play because he also came out to talk about draon, right? Okay, we understand that draon the uniqueness in every FF is the jump. So, they do something to it. So if they truly believe that as a warrior the uniqueness is not the get a big ax and do crazy big damage flashy move like you know primal ren more fell cleave like like all this big effect big hit big damage as a tank and they you know if they do agree that okay warrior is more leaning towards the uniqueness of healing then I think they will keep that but brother you really got to and and this is not just you the entire community. We need to prepare for the storm, man. A lot of things is going to change. A lot of jobs might have what you think is the unique identity, but Square Annies don't take it that way and it might be taken away. And the not identity that you thought >> wasn't an identity could just become your new identity. So, >> bro, I I I mean, bro, as a ninja man now, I'm also scared to [ __ ] that they do something to my mudas. You know what I mean? But I guess we can talk about that later. But I understand your concern. you know, you think that warrior needs to be uh able to self sustain. That is the most unique part and I hope they keep it. But it really depends on what they, you know, what they think about, you know, >> so like it doesn't need to keep like Yeah. Like it doesn't need to keep it. I don't like if they want to change it, that's fine. That's that's completely fine. Um, I'm just saying that because of this split, warrior is one of the tanks that suffers the most in terms of identity because you don't like like all of your self-healing is based on you taking damage. Well, if you don't [ __ ] take any damage, then like thrill is half useless. Equilibrium is completely useless. um like blood wedding is half use. You you know what I'm saying? So like it's fine if it's fine if they want to take it away but just give them something to replace it. So like if they want to make them if they want to make him like a faster GCD or if they want to make it like you know what I'm saying? Just just something to change it. But like what I don't want to see happen is I don't want what Nar said earlier to just have all of the off tanks remain the same and nothing's changed because then you have to think to yourself, okay, well as a warrior, what the [ __ ] are you supposed to do now? Like because now your equilibrium doesn't do anything. Now your thrill is only half useful. You know what I mean? Like you can't even get vengeance procs anymore. Like it's just kind of like what the [ __ ] are we supposed to do at this point? I guess and that's that's just what I that's that's one of the concerns that I have as all. >> I just think a lot of these job identity pro like concerns would have not been such a problem if they just gave the main tank the storm's path and then the off tanks could just have like big DPS rotations because all three of these jobs are like jobs people like doing damage on. >> Yeah. I just think that like I don't know. I just have concerns, man. We'll have to wait and see. They really should have showed an off tank. Mhm. >> They like like I do have some predictions though. I do have some predictions. One of my predictions is this. Uh the off tank is going to deal as much damage as the main tank or more. It's going to have just as many defensives and it's going to have more or equal to uh [music] party ability. So in that case, you're just going to take two main tanks of call or sorry, two off tanks and call it a day. Um that's like scenario one. Scenario two is they actually get it right and you take a main tank and an off tank and that they just they just get it right. There's not much discussion there. They they just get it right. It's you know it's it's cool. Everybody's you know everybody's happy. That's fine. Um, but and then like scenario three is very similar to scenario one except for you have this awkward [ __ ] where like like let's say you and your buddy, one of you is uh the new the new tank job and the other is a paladin. Okay. Well, one of you is going to get [ __ ] you know? And that's that's the whole like that's one of the reasons I don't like that the way that they're doing it because the new tank can only play evolved. So if the if the new tank can only play evolved then that means that the new tank it will never be a benefit for them to off tank. So because of that now the paladin is going to have to play it like if if you're trying to play the new tank with a paladin then the paladin is going to have to play reborn and I guess that can be fine to a certain extent but it's just going to be a bummer because the new stuff you're going to be forced to not play because because of the other tank. So it's just kind of like these awkward situations that I'm thinking about, right? Or like let's say that they do [ __ ] it up and you're going to be required a main tank. Well, if you and your buddy play two off tanks, well, one of you is going to have to swap. Like I just don't like that they split the role. I think that they could have just done it a different way. Uh because like right now uh like every tank can do main tank or off tank. They could have just expanded on it and they could have just made it more intricate. They didn't have to completely split the role. So, like I think there's a higher chance that they [ __ ] it up to a certain degree. I don't think it's going to go back to Heavens Ward. Um, I think ultimately super good players are going to be able to play whatever the [ __ ] they want and it's not going to matter. I think that there will be a meta. What that meta is, I think it's higher chance that there's going to be a two offtank meta than a main tank and an off tank because like I said, I just have no faith in SE. Um, but you know, hopefully I'm wrong, but I just even if they get it right, what are we gaining? Because if the answer to that question is job identity, that is a really, really horrible lazy way to create job identity. So instead of like actually working on the jobs themselves, they just, nah, let's just give these two tanks a counterattack and call it a day. Like that's just that's so that's so lazy. And to me it comes off as like incompetent. Like so you're gonna do that when you could have just made the job better. You could have given them like another combo. You could have given them something else to manage. You could have actually put work and effort into it. But nah, [ __ ] it. Let's just give them a counterattack. So that's that's like my biggest concern is like what are we gaining by doing this? And obviously, you know, it could work out, but until we see an off tank, like we're not going to know. But yeah, >> I guess I feel a little bit more like uh a little more um I don't know the word tepid about it in that it's so like like you guys have been saying we haven't seen very much obviously like they could there could be a lot more changes that we aren't seeing but it's just that it's just that the changes that we have seen make like their stated design goals seem like un uh less than likely right to to be successful just just based on the changes that we have seen. But what I'm hoping for is that Paladin just happens to be the tank that changed the least and that maybe they did a lot more changes to all the other tanks, right? Like that's definitely possible. >> It's hard to like say for sure. It's just, you know, early concerns. >> Mhm. Yeah. But I don't know. We'll see. I think Berlin's going to be lit, though. So, [music] yeah. >> It's the same way I feel about white mage also. >> You guys want to talk about healer stuff now? I think I kind of ran it. >> I think I kind of I think I'm done. Uh, ranting on tank stuff. I guess I guess I got it all out of my [ __ ] system. I guess I I guess I just want to end it with a TLDDR. And the TLDDR is I don't think it'll be bad, but I think it'll be unnecessary. And I think the meta might call for two off tanks depending on how it is. Um, I think at best case scenario, they get it right and we have a main tank and an off tank, but it's not going to be better than what we have now in terms of like flexibility. And I don't I don't understand what we're gaining by splitting them because if it's homogenization then they could have just made the jobs better themselves and kept the tanks being flexible. So I guess yeah I guess that's it for me. But >> no I mean I think I mean I didn't say too much also because I mean you are the one I mean you guys are main tanks right? You guys are tank players right? I'm already, you know, retired thanking for now. Maybe come back in uh the next expansion after this split and obviously the new tank. But it's nice to hear that, you know, people are thinking about preparing for the worst, right? You know, I mean that that's what we should do, right? We should always prepare for the worst and we need if they ever listen to us. I mean, I think they do because otherwise they wouldn't have make literally this entire fanfest about all the changes. Most of the people in the community who played the game long knows what they are thinking, knows what they are talking about and they made all these changes all based on that, right? So hopefully they listen to all this because bro it's Final Fantasy 14. If Final Fantasy 14 [ __ ] up, it will take 3 years or even in this case 13 years before they make one change. So we are all concerned. You as a main tank player, you have all these concern prediction and things that you want to see not want to see. Hopefully they listen to it and hopefully >> you know we 8.0 0 we get a better version of the game than before or or just different different but better you know hopefully >> it's not different but worse you know >> uh >> I guess uh >> or go ahead >> sorry go on I was just going to say like uh uh in terms of like overall like feeling of the evolved stuff I guess since that's kind of like the direction we we're talking about. I'm personally at a point where I'm just excited for anything to change cuz >> Yeah, me too. A lot like a lot of even cas so here's the thing like like hardcore players you know they they kind of feel this like fatigue faster than like casual players cuz you know the game has like so much more casual content and casual players like just go through it more slowly they don't feel that fatigue like as much but even a lot of the like casual players that I know are like if the game doesn't like change like like the game is getting so stale for us for me and if the game doesn't change in some way by the next expansion like I'm just going to take a break for for like two years because like the game is just getting too stale even for casual players which is like a real problem right and I'm I'm at the point where I am excited for any kind of big change that they're doing like I'm I want them to just start trying some some [ __ ] and >> and uh it is true that the jobs can be more unique than they are right now and it can be balanced but like I'm willing to take big changes even if it like damages balance in the in the short term and it takes them like a raid tier to like sort it out like I'm fine like there's always going to be a meta I'm fine with there being a meta. As long as the game is balanced like good enough, I'm I'm totally like on board personally. But >> yeah, like we all live through, you know, we all went through uh you know, Heaven's Ward. So like I I really don't think that they could ever [ __ ] up as bad as that. But like you said, I am just glad that they are changing [ __ ] And regardless if we're like celebrating in the streets or hiding in the bunker, I am [ __ ] all for it, man. Like I will [ __ ] wait out the [ __ ] storm with you guys and still be excited >> because I mean I want to try to be a little positive >> because ultimately >> it's hard to change. It's it's difficult to ch I mean people people don't like change, right? And especially after 13 years like I'm not saying that it's going to be good. I don't know whether it will be bad but d they got to change something because numbers don't lie. There's a reason why Dawn is so many more doom and gloom. Yes, obviously they are still enthusiastic. Yes, there are some good things about this game but the overall sentiment of Dawn Trill right now is the lowest Final Fantasy 14 ever has been. And we are not even the one with actual number is Square Enix is is the CEO is the company is Yoshi P. They seen the numbers. They know that they can't wait for another expansion for another 6 7.0. Oh god. Uh, you know what I mean? Like it needs to start now already. So hopefully they get it right. Like like you said, I hope that they got it right and even if they don't hope that they will make it right fast, not make us wait 13 years, you know. >> See the Yeah. So the thing is is like as a content creator, people have this completely wrong perception because even if it's bad, bro, I love to [ __ ] I love to complain. And if if [ __ ] is bad in 8.0, holy [ __ ] that is going to be an unlimited well of content, man. So dude, that's what I'm trying to say. I don't even care. Like, of course I want it to be good, but even if it's bad, it's exciting. It gives me something to talk about. It gives us It gives like all of us something to talk about, something to [ __ ] about, something to like deal with. You know what I'm saying? So, like even if it's bad, it's still going to be good. >> It's a brand new game. >> Oh, tell you. Real quick, real quick. Do you think that the leaks are right and that it's going to be a hammer tank? >> Yes, >> I think so. >> Blonde weapon. Blonde weapon tank. I think more accurate blunt weapon tank. >> Yeah, I think so. Did >> the question is does he have a shield? >> Did you guys hear Did you guys hear the the the theory like the like the like the stretch the reach from his shirt? Because it said you know um [ __ ] what did his [ __ ] shirt say again? It was like >> and guess who's back? >> Yeah, it was Guess who's back, right? Well, somebody was like somebody was like guess who's back? you know, Slim Shady, you know, Marshall Mathers. The job's [music] going to be called Marshall. I don't know, man. I don't know, dude. That's a little bit of a stretch for me. That's a little bit of a stretch for me, but I'm going to believe the leak. >> You think it Okay. Do Do you think he has a shield? Oh, no. Do you guys think that >> I don't know. It I mean, it I mean, it could have. Yeah, it could have. Um, but uh I do Okay, so I have a Okay. And I probably told you guys this before, but I a but I when I went to the Shadowbringers media tour, one of the questions I I asked Yoshi, I actually asked him why they went with Gunbreaker and I asked him about a sledgehammer tank and he told me that they actually had a sledgehammer tank in the like the concept like the pool of ideas, right? So whenever they come up with a new with a new job or whatever, they come up with like, you know, multiple ideas and then they pull one idea from that. Well, one of those ideas he told me was a hammer take. So, he told me that back in Shadowbringer. So, I can tell you >> Gaia also, right? Ga was like eventually, you know, shown to be the hammer, right? So, everybody was expecting a hammer, but they went with the gunreaker. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, >> eventually. Yeah. So, so I can tell you that he did tell me that. So, that's not like that's that's fact. Like, he he literally told me that. Um, and that was a long but that was a long time ago. Um, and you know, obviously things can change, but but I think it's going to be a hammer tank, but it could be wrong. >> It's a hammer. Flush up. Flush. >> I I think it's going to be some type of blunt weapon. So, I don't know. But anyway, yeah, those leaks were pretty accurate. >> Others, I have to ask. Uh, people are very seem like the the easiest target for people to argue with each other about with the evolve changes is uh combos. How do you how do you feel about the combos? Uh, you mean for like the DPS or you mean like >> in general the >> Okay. Do do you mean the one one instead of one, two, three or do you mean like >> Yeah. Yeah, that's what I mean. >> I mean, I think I I think one button is fine. Most games are like that already. See, the the the thing about Final Fantasy 14 and or even wild players, right, is that most of Final Fantasy 14 and W players only ever play one MMO. And >> that's fine because not everybody got time to play multiple MMOs, right? But they need to know that every other game already adopted this system if not now. But already 10 years ago, this is not new. Pressing 111 and pressing one, two, three doesn't change anything. It doesn't make it better or worse. You know, >> I >> So I don't I don't have any problem. One1 back. Everybody shut up. Two. I feel pretty similarly in that um like it's fine to prefer the one 123 like I think that's a valid you know like opinion that like you prefer the 1 123 over the 111 but [clears throat] the the goal of like reducing the number of keybinds I think is a good one. So like even if I slightly prefer like that hypothetically you know the 111 is like not really a big enough of a change to be like you know upset about. Plus, uh, if you're a job that cares about when your combo finishes, which it seems like a lot of them do, you're probably going to keep track of which step on the combo you're on anyway. So, it's >> Are you talking about one 123 versus 111? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> No, I'm glad that they consolidated it, man, because one, two, three is [ __ ] stupid. You should never be able to put two on your [ __ ] hot bar. Like, you should never be able to accidentally hit two. There should always just be chain skills in my opinion. >> Yeah. I mean, at the beginning, they do that because at the beginning of the game, there isn't a lot of button. So they do that as a bloat as like a >> you know doesn't want to make you feel that you are not pressing much but but now with how all these button that we have I think it needs to consolidate already because what what else more do you want them to add to the reborn hot bar? >> What another four like why >> no yeah they could >> consolidate so that we can get more things. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when they consolidate, when they go 111, uh, you know, you can you can actually add more abilities by consolidating. So like Viper has a [ __ ] ton of abilities, but it's in like two. It's [music] in like two, right? Well, you can keep adding to that if you really want to. Whereas if you have to put everything on your hot bar, that is extremely limiting in what you can do and give the classes. >> Yeah, I exactly how I feel as well. Like I I like slightly prefer the one two three, but like it's actually like so many jobs have so many like permanently available GCDs that you just always press like in a certain order that it like really damages their ability to like manage keybinds now, right? So I'm I'm personally for it. Plus, like I said, uh it you're probably going to want to like keep track of what step you're on anyway if you're a job that cares about that, which is looks like most do. So And like Box says, right? Like Box says on his tweet, if you guys really upset about this, just put one one or the three button into one, two, three. You can also still simulate to press one, two, three. Boom. That's not the same thing. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> No, that's the same thing. It's exactly the same. It's exactly the same. >> No, because the the the the main like thing the the main thing you immediately like stumble on when you Okay, so actually Okay. when they changed Gunbreaker Nashing Fang from three buttons into one button. I actually did that. I I put them I put them back into three different buttons because I was like, >> I don't like it because what happens is I'll start pushing the one button and I'll forget which part I'm on while I'm pushing it and I was like I'll push it a fourth time by accident and do nothing or I'll cut it off by accident cuz I'm like bad at counting it, right? Like that was the problem I was running into. You you still have that problem if you put it on three different buttons, [laughter] but like you get used to it, right? It's just muscle memory. Like you just you get used to it, right? Like it's not a big deal. But I'm the guy that did that and I I can tell you it's not the same. [laughter] >> Okay. So, Okay. So, healers. All right. So, obviously, white mage didn't change at all really. I mean, you still have the lilies. You still have like all that [ __ ] It's just um like you still have your blood lilies. Um now though, it's going to be a DPS gain, not DPS neutral. I'm pretty sure now it's DPS neutral, right? To use your lilies. It's neutral. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So, it's going to be a gain after in 8.0. It's going to be a gain every time. >> So, for Well, okay. So, obviously the numbers are subject to change. So, the actual potency numbers like didn't see much, but maybe I missed something, but from what I saw, it seemed to be a loss to push the healing buttons, but obviously like if it's intended to be a gain, then they would just fix it, right? >> So, when I looked at it, it uh the whatever that [ __ ] ability is with the two >> uh Yeah, that one right there. >> It does more. It does like I want to say 15% more than a glare. So just by using it alone because it's [music] a GCD, it will do more than a glare. So >> right. So this this is essentially a like uh analogous to like FGMA where it's just a GCD that just does more than your glare on like a 30 second cool down or whatever. >> See, I thought it was See, I thought it was misery. >> No, it Okay, hold on. So if if you you can just use it with no stacks of of like heals, right? And if you just press it baseline, it's on a 30 secondond cool down. You always want to p push this even if you're not healing because it does do more damage than your glare. >> But when you heal, it increases the potency up to three times, right? >> So it it is it's kind of both. It's like both a cool down and like a a misery replacement. >> Yeah. >> But at least from the number I could be wrong. I didn't I only looked once and I not very closely, but it looked like the amount of potency that it the amount in order for it to be a DPS gain, the amount of potency that it increases each stack has to be at least the amount that the glare hits for. And it looked like it wasn't that much. >> N so obviously they could fix that. >> When I looked, he he hit it for 172,000 and each glare did 50k. So with three stacks, it did or sorry at uh >> Right. So So if if those two numbers are accurate, that means this button is a DPS loss >> or uh No, no, sorry, it was two. It was two. It was two. Sorry. >> Two. Oh, if it two stacks and then then it would be a gain. Yeah. But >> but like obviously they wouldn't balance it that way because they know better by now, right? So like it could just even if what I said was true, like they would just fix it later. Like the potency numbers are not final obviously. But >> yeah. Well, yeah, that's that's another thing is people there's a couple people in chat. They're like the potency numbers aren't final. But one thing that I think people have to understand is that we are talking about this stuff as it is current. Like we like Yes. like the people that are saying nothing is nothing is like you know it's all subject to change. Yes, we understand that but we are still going to talk about it because it's important that >> that we do because they might not like just because something is subject to change doesn't mean that it's going to change. >> Like I'm going to like I'm going to give you an example. They never [ __ ] change Lion Heart breaking your Nashing [ __ ] thing. And I told them that there at the [ __ ] media tour. So you guys have to understand that sometimes Square Enix is [ __ ] stupid. There just because something is subject to change doesn't mean that they're actually going to change it. That's it. >> I mean I I don't know if I would go as far as to call them stupid. >> No, no, no, they are. It's >> No, they are. >> There's uh [laughter] there's always the possibility that they catch something that they missed because of feedback, right? So >> yeah. Well, I was [ __ ] there, bro, and I told them and they still ain't fixed it. You know what their fix was for it? Their fix is this. We're just gonna wait till 8.0, remove the [ __ ] thing, and now we don't have to fix it. NASA fix. I really hope I get to go to the media tour this year. By the way, >> the white mage changes were uh they removed the dot and as so now you just have glare and uh misery basically >> super glare. >> A lot of people I've seen a lot of people are upset about. And holy also, by the way, notice notably. Oh yeah, we can talk about AoE later, but [laughter] >> I I I looked at this on my stream earlier and I think I know what they're doing with AoE, but >> yeah, I think I think >> uh I seen people some people upset about like the the misery thing and like >> what why were they upset about it? >> Cuz they're taking away even more damage buttons from healers basically. >> Hm. But isn't that But that's like kind of the same though. Like cuz isn't that button the same as misery? That's how I >> see you have four buttons right now. You have glare and your dot in misery and like as a as like a off GCD cool down, right? And they took away two of those. So now you only have two left. >> Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought they were complaining about that. >> Uh like my my copium at least is that white mage they're deliberately like making white mage easier than the other healers because that's always been kind of its identity and it's always been extremely popular with like you know >> casual players. So I'm coping that I'm I'm hold I'm I'm I'm reserving my my dumium until we see a second healer basically. >> Yeah man they just Okay, first thing first my wife love it. My wife think this is awesome. But then my wife is also like a you know LNA say she's a new player. She only started playing in 6.5. So all these changes like perfectly feed her you know because I always tell her please don't use GCD heal. Try to learn the fight that you don't have to. And then she's always like oh you haven't played with park healers healing is good. I like to heal. So now they are actually rewarding her. So >> everything and and also her glare right she suck at slight casting not until she do ultimate. So now she can cast glare and move. It's like wow you got what you want you know and her dot up time is absolute [ __ ] and I don't think I see a dot. So maybe just like wow maybe square you watch your stream more than Zeno. You know what I mean? Maybe they do all this thing for you. So overall I think she likes it and I think a lot of things is taken away and I think um I know what they are doing but one thing they should not have done which I think really pissed off the healer or rather why Mish community specifically is that you come out and you say that why M is already easy we already know that >> and they double down and say we are now going to make it easier. I feel like that is just like would you like it's like such a >> it's actually I I I think like this is something I've always said and this like supports my like stance that I just really want jobs to feel different again. I think there should be like at least one job in each role that's just like really easy. Like I think that's healthy for the game. But the problem is that when they make these kinds of like systematic changes to the game, they tend to do it to everything at the same time so everything continues to stay the same, right? So all that needs to happen is this time they need to just not do exactly the same thing and remove the dot from every healer and every offic damage ability from every healer like they do every other time. Right. >> So yeah. So going by what you said, you're hoping [music] that the simplicity of Paladin and White Mage are only to those jobs. Yeah, that's my copium because those two because they happened >> the the pattern is that the four jobs they showed off like bard, dragoon, paladin, white mage, those are like traditionally very popular jobs like >> Mhm. >> for you know like story players and stuff like that. So may those might have been like first targets for simplifying stuff just because they're like >> those jobs are always popular even when they're bad. Even in Heavensword, even Heavensword when compadin was basically completely unusable. >> It was just so like it was unbelievably terrible. Like literally bottom one worst job in the entire game. >> Like people still play Paladin like all the time. People even when white mage is bad, there's still so many white mages. Like they're such popular jobs, right? So >> maybe that's why they showed them off first. And maybe that could also be why they might seem a little simpler than they probably should be. But you know, that's kind of copium. But >> would Okay. Okay. Okay. So, so I asked this question the other day on stream and I was actually surprised by the answer, but do you do you guys think that one of the optimizations [music] of playing a healer is slide casting? Because I do. And [music] when I asked that, a lot of people were like, "Oh, no. You're just bad. You're just bad." But I've actually helped some friends before improve their healer damage and one of the reasons their damage was so bad was because of the lack of casts that they had. >> Like absolutely. >> So I actually think that slide casting is a huge part of healer optimization because that's one of the only things that you can do [music] to improve your damage. Optimizing your movement is actually way more important than optimizing your healing on healer if you care about your damage. Like it's it's actually almost all movement. >> Yeah. So >> my Okay. My about healing my my take about healing optimization is never about the damage. Like to me right you can never come up to me and tell me how much damage or how good you are at doing damage and convince me that you are a good player. Now I am not saying that if you are a good healer passer doesn't mean that you are a good player. No, that's not what I'm trying to say. But for me, how good a healer is is always about how good they proc a fight, how they heal, how they can read the situation, and not about how many glare or how many slide cast you can do. So, if you were to ask me, [clears throat] do I think that slight casting is, you know, important for healing customization? My answer is I don't care. >> Well, no, no, no. So, going by what you just said, you can apply what I just said to healing as well. Yeah. So, so because I understand what you're saying, like, okay, so let's take glare out of it. what I said still still is applicable to healing because let's say that you're out of position and you need to use a heal but you don't have swift cast well if you can't optimize your slide cast to heal then people are going to die of course >> yeah yeah yeah so when I said optimizing slide cast I wasn't just talking about damage I was also talking about healing too because if you don't position yourself correctly as a healer you might not even be able a heal because you're too busy running away uh and trying to reposition. >> They didn't Okay, but they didn't take away casting from heels, right? >> Yeah. So, so I guess this leads Yeah. So, this leads into my next question. This Okay. So, so I so I asked that question just to get your guys' opinion because I want to ask this question. by making DPS healing or by making the DPS cast instant. In my opinion, that dumb the job down even more because now you don't have to optimize your glare cast. You only have to optimize your healing cast. Now, I'm not a healer main and I'm not going to pretend to be, okay? But I'm just saying that slide like one of the from what I've noticed uh one of the most important things is positioning yourself correctly as a healer and slide casting. And [music] now that they've took the glare slide cast away in my opinion I think they made it that's another step to make it even easier. That's another step. That's all I was trying to say. >> I I am a healer player actually and you're definitely right. Okay, let me let me use my let me let me use my shitty analogy here. Okay. >> Okay, you're working on the office desk. Okay, your job is to go to the copier and always print papers for your boss. >> All right now, >> the copier is in a distance that is like within arms length but not really. But then every time you have to stand up, walk there, press the button, go back down and sit down versus you could just roll your Herman Miller chair and we roll over there, press the button and roll all the way back. Which one do you prefer? I think rolling the chair over is better, right? It's more comfy. It's easy. >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. But that is not realistic, right? But now if I tell you, bro, you can do that. Wouldn't you have be happier? >> Yes. Right. So then that is now casting glare without cast bar. So I think it's not >> I think that's a bad >> not realistic but now that it happened I think it's awesome. It's that's that's a so that's what you're saying is like a I feel like your analogy that you're giving is like a much deeper thing that we could talk about and that's anything that makes the game easier is generally like people like when the game gets easier >> and the thing is that as the developer you like it is their responsibility to resist that to some extent right because everything that that's kind of how we got to where we are now that's why the boss hit box was like the size of the whole [ __ ] room in Abyss Because melee players complained they couldn't hit the boss. They're like, "Oh, we make the boss hit box bigger." And was like, "Yay, we love it. We can get up time all the time." And now it's like you just do your rotation exactly the same every every every boss fight because, you know, you get free up time all the time. You know, it's like the game will be ruined if they just make people happy by making the game easier every time, right? So like >> to some extent, yes, people like it, but also to some extent they have to resist that >> at least to some amount to like maintain an identity in the game, right? you must answer. >> See, I think I I think the best middle ground is right now. Like say you have your 1.5 cast and then you can still weave a GCD off GCD. I think right now it's perfect. >> But then Scholar also got the ruin to situation which is by the way the most the most broken button that any healer can have especially in the pro but but it's very underrated right and then you know you got sage which is you got half and half. You got your two charges of melee range instant and then you got your three toxicon which you can get back if you you know use break a barrier unoptimally. Okay, so I think right now it's okay. But if they were to make just white mage, okay, just white mage. If they were to just make white mage glare like that and like N says earlier they just want one job to be easy, I'm okay with that. But if everybody in the office start rolling their chair like that, like if all four healers are like that, then I think we have >> Dude, that's going to be like some [ __ ] office [ __ ] chair destruction derby, bro. >> That's the [laughter] That's the That's the biggest thing I'm concerned about right now, is that they have such a long history of whenever Square uh decides they don't like something about the game or they want to change something, this happened with Dots, by the way. >> Like specifically, I'm think I'm I'm like pointing at Dots as I say this. whenever they want to make a change to the game where they're like, "Oh, there's too many dots in the game." Like every job has this 30-cond GCD dot, like flabbotomize, uh, like fracture, like touch of death, uh, [ __ ] mutilate. Those are all those are all the exact same button that every single job had. And they said, "We don't like dots anymore." And they took the dots away from every job. And now no jobs have dots now. They make these big sweeping changes and they put it apply it to everything at the same time, which is like kind of the problem with with like with uh >> that's where the homogene goes. Yeah. >> So, so regardless of what they change, all I want all I want them to do is to just not do the same thing to every job at the same time for once. Like that that's that's all that's all I'm asking for, right? Like earlier you me and like this is I mean I know we talked about tank stuff earlier but earlier you mentioned like all of the tanks having like very similar mit like that is fine but if you're going to do that then you have to make the rotations different you have to make them you have to make them different like in another way. So like >> yeah exactly the the damage ab rotations should be a lot different. >> Yes. >> And the the utility should be a little different right there's a necessary evil there. The utility has to be like some there has to be some base level otherwise you end up in a situation where a job becomes just completely unplayable which is which is also not good. >> That's what people or sorry go ahead. >> I was just going to say it's it's also I think it's also not good that they're all exactly the same just about I like there should be like one or two things different between each job and I think that and like they should have like three or four things that are exactly the same and I think that's like a good balance but I don't that's just how I feel about it. >> Yeah. So it like one thing people don't understand is that a certain level of homogenization is necessary. You have to have it for balancing purposes. If you don't have that, you end up like heaven's ward. Like that's just fact. Like if you have a a tank or a job that literally can't do something, but every other one of that in the role can, that's a problem. You know what I'm saying? So there has to be some level of homogenization there. It's just >> they have went overboard with that. That's and that's also a problem. So it's like finding this like middle ground where you have to homogenize enough but not too much. So like hopefully with the with the healer, which is what which is which is what I was like getting to with um like the slide cast being, you know, like skill intensive or whatever. And I know it might be tedious, but it's regardless like it's still skill intensive because I was because I was helping some of my friends, a couple of my friends uh try to try to optimize more on uh healer because this this raid tier, you know, M11 like I mean obviously for you know hardcore groups and you [music] know world prog groups, they didn't really have too much of an issue for the DPS check, but M11 [ __ ] all over the community, man. That is a fact. You cannot argue that. M11 [music] the dude the tyrant [ __ ] dick slapped so many [ __ ] groups so [ __ ] hard some of them fell apart man you know that is crazy like this was one of the best third turns that we've had in a very long time and uh one of my friends their damage was bad purely because of sly cast like purely because of slide casting so that's what I was saying man is like now that they've taken that away and done the job Uh like do you think they're going to do that with the other healers? >> So um >> so uh I don't know how much uh how much like experience in other like jobs do you guys have? Like do you guys play casters for a long time or healers like often? I used to play caster a lot, right? >> I used to play all the jobs back in the day, but I kind of quit around Storm Blood or uh Shadowbringers because they all became the same. So you you uh so there's been a very long-term trend like over the game's lifespan where casters have basically gotten movement creep like very consistently over time each expansion. >> Yeah. >> Like casters have always been moving in a direction where it becomes easier to move every expansion and never harder. Like that that's just it's just been a continuous thing. It's not like a a sudden jump they've done with that. I think the most sudden jump they did with that was when they reduced the healer GCDs or Astro GCD to 1.5 and then all the other healers after that. But it's always been a thing where casters just gradually gained more and more instant casts and now swift cast cool down shorter and now like there's so many instant casts and now glare is instant. But along with that, they've also been demanding you to move more and farther and more often in in boss fights, right? like there there has been kind of a a a rising expectation of movement in the boss fights alongside that cuz if you if you go back and do like an old like Heavensword boss, you do like a like a you get like Sophia in in your trial roulette or something, you'll realize uh you you'll like remember how much moving somewhere in the room used to be like a mechanic for range, you know, like caster board and all that. Like it used to be like you used to care a lot about how you move between mechanics and now you go back and you do those trials and you're like there's literally nothing happening because moving is easy now, right? But in all the new fights like you do so much moving nowadays that like >> it seems I I personally think that they are moving will get easier probably across all the casters. Like hopefully not all the healer fillers are instant cast, but I think healers are going to continue to keep like a pretty high amount of instant cast and ways to move, but also I think the bosses are also going to make them have to move because that like that's also is a trend that's been going up over time. So that's just how I feel about it. >> That was actually one question I was going to ask. What would you prefer? Would you prefer the old style where you >> Yeah. Yeah. That's what I wanted to say. Yeah. >> Yeah. So Okay. So basically which which path do you want to move more but have more instaccast or do you want to move less and have less instac because me personally I think moving more is more interactive but >> that's the problem right that's the that's the million-dollar question for people who play an MMO RPG because MMO PG like nowadays have moved on so much already like if we are talking about vanilla while we are talking about old school MMO you are just standing there cast a spell the mob comes very slow, you can root them and then you are just standing and cast because the game wants you to do that. That is what peak gaming felt like you know but today doesn't matter what MMO we play it's always about fast movement it's about mechanic difficulty is now based on not just how good you are at you know pressing the button but it's also how good you are doing the mechanics you know so I mean that's why World of Warcraft like also become like right you know you play your mages your mages got to blink your mages got to move and then you know you have to have weak auras to tell you when you can use your instant cards and stuff so it's like the game today has becoming so dynamic, so much movement that they want you to move. And how do you as a player like look at it and tell yourself that's good or not? Because some player just want to chill. Some player just want to stand there and cast, but some player is just like, "Oh my god, I have to do five mechanics at once. If I can use these five swift casts even as a caster, but move five GCD for 15 seconds freely, wow, now I'm actually a very good caster, you know." So, how do people feel about it? I hate casting. >> I personally I I hate casting. I hate >> I hate casting. I hate standing there with my dick in my hand just waiting for a cast to finish. >> Yes. Yeah. Because that's not interactive. But there needs to be a middle ground. It needs to be like >> we can do it and don't Friction is good. Friction is still good. Able to slide cast I think is great. But how many slide casts can you really do in an entire fight? The game has to give you some leeway, right? Okay, here's a triple cast. Okay, here's an instant cast. now play around it. So I think that's okay. But if they going to do every healer like white mage and take away all the bro cars then man I don't know man the boss fight better be interesting man because otherwise players will maybe get bored. I don't know you know >> I think Sage is currently probably in the spot where they should probably make the healers land because Sage has very good movement. They have a lot of instant cast. I'm a melee player though. still also have a lot of cast that they have to >> don't take my cast seriously >> and also I like the I personally like how toxic I just don't like casting >> um you have to heal you to break a barrier then you can get the instant cast >> like I feel that that is balance you know you got enough you can move but you need to think about how you get it >> they give you five at the beginning you get two overtime but how do you get the other three so I think like sage they do yeah sage is movement wise I think perfect >> I know I'm bad at it but it's one of my favorite jobs in the game. That's no cap. I love Sage. >> So, uh I guess to answer your question that you asked, uh I about if you would prefer less movement or more movement, but >> I think that's basically going to be entirely like a matter of opinion, but I guess my opinion is that all of my favorite bosses in the game are like all my favorite boss fights in the game that they've ever released is like Barbarich, you know, bosses like that. bosses that are just constantly jumping around and doing [ __ ] and you're like running around all the time. I [ __ ] love that. I think that's awesome. And >> and unlike most other things that they're saying here, I actually try I actually do believe that they're going to make bosses make you run around more. >> Yeah, I hope so. >> One of the best to do that because that is that is something that they have been doing like over time gradually and like kind of consistently they've been like making you have to making bosses chase you around more often. >> So, okay. So, then I guess here's so I guess here's a question. If they do what? Okay, so if they do to the other healers what they're doing to white mage, is it going to be okay if the bosses are just [ __ ] nuts and you are constantly moving? Because I think if they do that, it would be okay. >> Yeah. Okay. Final Fantasy 14 is not a mobile slot. If they are not just trying to make the game super easy so that everybody can play and then you switch your brain off. If they were to do that, there wouldn't be Ultimate. I wouldn't be savage. You know what I mean? Like I do believe >> to a certain extent, same for World Warcraft. World Warcraft makes you do so much DPS button, but then they make the mechanic easier. I do believe that this company, despite their problem, >> I think they know how to make a fight balanced and fun based on how you press the button. So, if your job >> overall is going to be easier to play, like if we feel that it's going to be easier to play, I think we can expect that the fight will be harder. If the fight is going to be harder, then we can expect that the DPS rotation will be easier. Now, if it's both easy, then I will lose faith. If it's both easy, then I will be really sad. But I It's Square Enix. It's Final Fantasy 14. It's Blizzard is Wow. I don't think this company would [ __ ] it up that bad, you know. >> Mhm. I think that in 8.0, based on what we saw, I think the jobs are going to be incredibly simple, but the mechanics and boss movement are going to be much more intricate. That's what I think. I think that they're trying to make the game harder based on the enemy, not the rotation of the of the player. >> Yeah, that's the direction they've been going for a while, I think. And that's also what they've said like several >> expansions in a row now. The only problem I have with that is that causes a problem where the normal dungeon level content in the game is like so >> yes >> slow that having the simpler jobs becomes like a real problem in that content and like makes you just completely like bored. So yeah, so that was the one really really good thing about Heaven's Ward is because the jobs were so complicated, it did not matter what [music] content you played it, you played it in. I mean, you could even literally do a dungeon, it was still complicated. Like the actual rotation was like if you wanted to do it correctly, you know what I mean? Obviously, if you you didn't have to do it correctly, but my point here is that you were constantly practicing a a a much more intricate rotation than a brain dead one. So, because because part of the difficulty of the fight was on the player, it was the it was the rotation. You took that rotation in everything you engaged in. Whereas now there is no I mean there's barely any difficulty in the rotation. So, as you said, when you take it in easier content, it's like not only is the content easier, but also you have the brain rotation. So, it's just like bad on top of bad. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Like >> I I actually talk about this uh like today's stream and I was like talking about how people I mean some I mean maybe not a lot these days, but you know people was talking about oh god yes it's so easy. I don't know why you guys say it's hard. I did mean eye level. We just get it down in two lockout. I'm like bro it's a different game. [laughter] you're going completely different, you know. >> Yeah. That anyone who like really like like I'm I'm also a Heavensword enjoyer. I really I really enjoyed I played the game a lot and I really enjoyed it and heavens sword. Anyone who like enjoys Heavensword would tell you that that's probably the exact reason why because like the more intricate jobs meant you could just have more consistent fun like doing anything in the game. >> Like that's another reason why I played so many different jobs back in Heavens Ward. Why? That's another reason why I did so much more content back in Heaven's Word is because every single piece of content that I did, the jobs were just so much better. Well, okay, when I say better, I don't mean like better design. I don't mean better. So, I'll use the word fun. It was so much more fun. Now, obviously, fun is subjective, but the game was much different back then. And and I I feel like I feel like Heaven's Ward was one of those expansions where you either loved or you hated it. I don't feel there's too many people that were like it was okay. It was either you loved it or you hated it because it was it was very extreme. It was a very extreme expansion >> and that is that is the thing that I hope is not going to be the case for 8.0 because 8.0 to me felt like they are going for like they going for it you know like heaven heavens Yoshi P Yoshi P is just a guy that just fixed Final Fantasy 14 and Yoshi P is a gamer himself and he's like okay I think I know how to make a different girl game and he did. Holy [ __ ] man. Heavens was difficult overall. >> And I think I think he's like, "Hold up." H you know, I thought everybody will be okay with it, but apparently not. And and how the game become what it is today. And I feel like 8.0 is him going like, "Okay, we need to go back to that a little bit." But we learned from heaven. So, we cannot go that far. But how are you going to strike the balance? >> You know, back then 10 years ago, he didn't know better. Now, he learned a lot. He's he's way better today compared to you know 10 10 years ago in terms of like evaluating what the player base won but he's actually healthy for the game you know and I mean do I think Don we see a little bit like at the beginning I did see some glimpse of how he actually feel that the game should be different how fight should be different and then you know we still got our ultimate we got chaotic and then we get like Q40 like he does know what needs to be there it's just how do you place it in the right place you know so 8.0 Oh, hopefully he will like make like a better product than 7.0 and even a better change compared to Heavenssworth, you know? That's what I hope. >> I said earlier Cino is definitely 100% the game direction the game is going in. The jobs are getting easier and the the encounters are going to get harder at least the high level ones. 100%. That's what that's they've been going that direction for a long time. >> Yeah, I I think they started as I think they started in Shadowbringers. That's when they started I think because in Shadowbrers is the one where they took away all the debuffs which which I actually think was good. Uh that was a needed change. Um I definitely think that was good. I think that was too much meta in the game. [gasps] You should not you should not be like when you have different melee in the game. You should not be forced to always take draon and ninja and >> and ninja. >> Yeah. I'm fine with resistances being gone, especially nowadays where there's just way too many jobs for that to work. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's just it's like if you have to choose between like it kind of made sense in a realm reborn, right? Because you literally had monk and dragoon, does it? Right. Like you literally Okay, so one of them is Yeah. Yeah. So you just take both naturally and then the dragoon, you know, it just buffs the range, you know. Yeah, makes sense. Okay. uh Ninja came out, you know, then it kind of pushed Monk out a little bit, you know, and then and then in Heaven's Ward, Monk and then Yeah. >> Actually, that reminds me uh earlier, Arthur, you were talking about how like all the jobs doing the same amount of damage. That's actually uh I don't know if you guys remember specifically uh in Heavensword like the balance of Heavensword like really intricately but that actually all of the DPS jobs in Heaven Sword actually did do almost exactly the same personal damage. It's just some of them had raid buffs and therefore were were extremely way better. But like there was a period of time where all the jobs basically did exactly the same personal damage. And like I personally like I actually found it to be like really satisfying that like >> if you're playing the best if you're the best player in the party, you're going to be on top of the damage meter no matter what like job you're playing. Like I found that to be really fun actually. So like I don't think it's a problem. Every job kind of aims for the same amount of personal damage. The problem in heaven is just like raid buffs for DPS. Like raid buffs were just >> insanely they had no idea what they were doing with raid buffs even though like they don't think they know. I don't think they knew about >> I think we kind of skipped to the DPS stuff. Do you guys want to Did you have anything else to say about the healer stuff? >> Oh, I could, but it's like pretty more intricate like healer player stuff about like specifically what cool downs they changed, I guess. >> I mean, yeah, >> I guess like a >> Yeah. Yeah, but >> something I was uh something I was kind of disappointed to see on the white mage hot bar here is uh they removed things like asylum uh like some some of their the AoE like healing cool downs which is fine you know obviously they're going like I actually think healers have way too [ __ ] many cool downs right now like Astro and like Scholar like they they actually just have an insane amount of cool downs right now and like reducing that down and like bringing some power up and then GCD heals like I think is fine. Like I think that's a good direction for the healing to go. Less cool downs, stronger GCD heals. So like you know you actually have to use the GCD heals >> even though people complain about that. That's some of the friction that you know it's their responsibility to like inject back into the game even if people complain about it because like down the road it'll lead to a better game. >> But something I was disappointed in is they removed like they removed and changed a bunch of AoE stuff. >> But these like this high amount of single target buttons the the the Benison and the Aquavail two stacks. Tetra two stacks. Benediction is still a threeminute cool down. Like >> I don't know if any healer really enjoys having to press all these single target >> buttons all the time. >> Uh I do not. But then again, I'm not a healer main. So >> yeah, >> I don't really like it either. I find it kind of obnoxious to have to like >> press a bunch of benison and aqua veils and tetras in a row. >> Actually, why I completely stopped playing Astro after uh Storm Blood was because of all the single target cards. Like I used to play the [ __ ] out of Astro back in uh what was it like heaven's ward and I think Stormbl as well. Sorry it's been a long time but ever since they made that change to the cards I never played it again because of all the single target. I [ __ ] hate that [ __ ] So, like two things. I guess they could they could have like taken away one of these single target buttons that like I guess maybe this is just my own opinion, but they could have taken away one of these single target buttons that feel kind of clunky to use. You have to like make mouseover macros for them and stuff. They could have replaced one of these with like as size and kept as size. And I think like the whole kit would have immediately been way better if just as eyes existed instead of one of these. And then the second thing is it's kind of crazy Benediction is still a threeminute cool down because I don't think it's like it's nice but it's not like that good, right? I don't know. Especially because they're they're lowering the they're like taking away buttons but lowering the cool downs on the ones that you keep. Like temperance is a 60-second cool down on evolved mode. I kind of thought they were just going for lower cool downs across the board but like less number of actual cool downs which I I think I personally think is like a really good direction to go. like less buttons but like lower cooldowns on everything would be great. But >> you know I um okay so uh you can you can call me an idiot for this. Uh, but back when, okay, so if you if you think if you think back a long time ago when there was there was Astro and White Mage, um, I remember me and Boach were talking about it and he asked me, he was like, "What button would you rather have, Benediction or >> [music] >> um, essential dignity?" Because like at the time Astro's quote unquote benediction was essential dignity. And I was thinking to myself and I was like, "Dude, I'd much rather have essential dignity [music] because it's like it's like up all the time." And so I don't know if I was an idiot for that, but I always liked essential dignity way more than Benediction. So like I agree with you that I don't really think Benediction is that [music] crazy powerful. >> Yeah. I mean, same as that, right? Tetra versus Benny, right? I rather use Tetra because I use Tetra more more if I have to. >> But the fact Benny also doesn't help that it's so [ __ ] clunky. So >> yeah, like the fact that they're they're doing all this uh like removing buttons and lowering cool downs, but then you lose as sis for like Benediction completely unchanged still cool down is like kind of disappointing to see. That's all I guess. Mhm. And uh also I don't know if you looked really closely at the the white mage gameplay, but they changed Lilies from like two separate buttons and misery. >> Yeah. >> Just one button that you click and it replaces your other buttons for the GCD. Kind of like uh >> kind of like uh Ukrasia. >> Yeah. So I actually I don't particularly like that. I mean I think it's okay. Uh but yeah, it does play it plays almost exactly like Sage now. It's just you hit that which is whatever the [ __ ] word you just you crazy or whatever and then it turns your [ __ ] into other stuff. >> I actually really like it because you know one of their like stated goals for this change was reducing the amount of buttons that you have to push and this is like a really easy way to like have complexity but with less buttons. So >> like Arthurs, you were talking about ninja earlier with the njutsu. I'm pretty sure this is exactly what they're going to do in ninjutsu. You're going to basically make it like a a dance like the way dancer works. You're going to press you're going to press like you're going to press the njutsu button and it's going to change three of your GCDs into the mudras and then you press it again to execute it. So all your mudras like you have one mudra button but it still maintains the like multiple buttons, right? >> Yeah. So like would it so you would so you would hit the >> So you would hit the >> yo you know what what if they just [ __ ] make it to where you know how you have different mudras, right? What if they just make it to where instead of different mudras, it's the number of times you hit a mudra. So >> yeah, >> like does that make sense? Right. So what if you hit it once and you get a shuriken? You hit it twice, you get a raon. You hit it three times, you get that gazo or whatever the [ __ ] that was called, the heist thing, right? Whatever that's called. >> Yeah, but the thing is right now Mudra has different combination. So I don't know whether they can do same button. >> Well, yeah. So what I'm saying is but but I think it can be different button and like N says whenever you press a different button instead of pressing the ninju button your GCD will okay something like PVP that's what PVP is right now right you press uh kasatu and then different button will become your GCD will then become the respective ninju >> so that is the way they do it for PVP and you know the current system does seems to follow PVP so >> it's also exactly how dances work right now. >> M >> and uh the reason I bring that up is because I think you're going to probably see a lot more of that in the job designs that they show because yeah, I think that's going to just become a thing that you're going to have to like get comfortable with because it's such an easy way to reduce key binds and that's like seems to be an extremely like big goal of theirs. >> Yeah. So with this combine button, consolidate and multi-purpose a button, right? That's what they're going for. Yeah. So, like by adding that whatever that [ __ ] skill is called. I don't even know what it's called. Uh the [music] blue spear. Yeah, that thing right there. Yeah. Yeah. >> This is I think plenary. >> Okay. It's still called It's still called plenary. Okay. So, by adding >> I don't know. I think so, though. >> Yeah. So, Oh, all right. So, by the Ukrasia plinary uh button, because it changes your other [ __ ] that gives them not saying they're going to do this, but it but it does give them the option to add more to your hot bar because they're consolidating at minimum two abilities. They're consolidating the two Lily abilities. >> Exactly. And it gives them more space to add like a third one later or something, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I mean I I think it's a good reboot like for for for the reborn mode. I think over the years you can see that it's really >> Wait, do we want to talk about this now or the evolve mode later? I guess I guess we save it for the evolve. >> Did you guys have anything else to talk about healer stuff? >> He leers though. >> Not really. I think I got everything out there. I'm disappointed that they kept every single target action and then got rid of like other stuff that would have been nicer to keep instead of the single target. >> Yeah, I stuff. That's I guess that's my opinion. >> I think that they should have showed a a shield healer. They should have showed an off tank and they should have showed a shield healer. >> Honestly, you guys didn't talk about Wait, wait, wait. Do you guys like the fact that >> you heal and you get refunded that DPS from Holy Sanctuary? Like, do you guys like that? >> Well, it functions it functions almost identical to Lily's now. >> It's almost the same. Like it's ver it's Yeah, it's virtually the same now. >> Oh >> yeah, because so the so like if you have to move, you're just going to hit that Ukrasian planer and it's going to turn your cure into a a [ __ ] soulless or whatever. Yeah. So it's essentially the same as >> GCD. Yeah, I guess the same. Yeah. >> Yeah. Basically, it's the exact same thing except for the fact that it's like a 30-cond cool down that even without any stacks is already a DPS gain. So even if you're not healing, you're just going to press it anyway. Besides that, it's exactly the same thing. And also it might it might trigger off of your non lily heals too. >> But this one, this new change they're going to do is apply to GCD heal also at any point in time, right? So like >> a one I understand, >> you know. Yeah, the lily one I can understand you get a charge for movement is still going to be a gain because you gain >> the stack, right? But this one is >> you have your insta. >> You use a GCD heal like I assume it's al so going to include like medic or cure tree, right? I think so. Yeah, it just it just triggers on every >> additional. It's new. It's a it's a add-on to the already system, right? That like do you guys like it GCD heal so that you can >> afford it doesn't actually change how white mage plays at all. So like it doesn't really matter to me. >> You still do the exact same thing. You press you're going to press this button every 30 seconds >> and you're going to do and you have three free heals every time you push it basically. So it's exactly the same as as Misery. Yeah, the well based on the potencies the it it should it should be a gain because the two stacks uh was like 50k or sorry the two stacks uh resulted in 172k but obviously that's subject to change. >> Yeah. Uh >> yeah bas basically you get like three quote unquote free heals every time you get this cool down up and it's the only change is that it's not only liies now it's just whatever button that you decide to push. >> Yeah. It's also more flexible because you can actually use that with zero lilies and still be a damage gain. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So like So like in your opener, you're going to burn one automatically. >> You're just going to you're just going to burn it probably to get it on cool down >> cuz it's two stacks at 30 seconds, I think. >> Yeah. Actually, uh going down to 30 seconds is actually now now that you mentioned it is actually kind of a big change instead of 60. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. >> Free quote unquote free heals every 30 seconds is actually a [ __ ] lot of healing. >> Yeah. Mhm. And it's all going to be a gain, too. >> Yeah. You're actually going to be able to GCD like like a [ __ ] madman. Like >> light mage is going to heal like [ __ ] crazy. And they're not going to lose any damage. Like if you like if you play it right, you're going to be able to heal a [ __ ] ton and you're still going to be able to deal a [ __ ] ton of damage. >> I think that's what I was asking. That's what I was asking. Do you guys like that? You know, I think I think that's cool >> if the boss throw [ __ ] out damage, right? Obviously. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think >> probably why they made it a button that you can like push without any stacks cuz it's going to feel really [ __ ] stupid if your white mage just standing there casting medicica every 10 seconds to use it >> when there's like nothing to heal. You know what I mean? So that's probably why it's a button that you can push even with no stacks now. I think that your like with the way white mage is now or that's that they showed I think that the boss is going to have to deal a [ __ ] ton of [ __ ] damage for you to ever feel like you're in danger because you're even rewarded for healing. So it's like it's it's like bro like you're going to have to Yeah. like they're going to have to deal like a [ __ ] ton of damage for it to be. And this is just one healer, by the way. This is one. >> I I hope that's the way they go to be honest. That would be awesome. But that's also what they said they were going to do for like several expansions and then they never do it. So >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> But who knows? This might be the time they actually do the thing that they said they were going to do because they're actually changing stuff this time, right? So I'm like kind of out. >> I'm going to be real. I hope the game gets [ __ ] hard. I hope the game gets hard because holy [ __ ] the amount of like crying and whining and [ __ ] is going to be awesome. I'm not saying as hard as Heaven's Ward because that's like, you know, that's like toxic cringe hard. But I mean, well, like for the community, you know what I mean? For the community. But like I hope that it gets harder than what it is now. >> Yeah, I think so too. >> Yeah. But >> or rather I hope so. I mean >> I just hope it's different. Hard or not, I mean I guess depends. But I just want it to be different really. I actually don't even care if it's harder or not. I think Oh, actually I do care if it's a little harder. Especially normal mode. I actually care more about the normal mode content than the savage and ultimate. I think the savage and ultimates are like generally fine. I hope the normal mode content is what >> Okay, so when I say harder, that's what I mean. I mean the casual and the normal mode content. I think that that needs to cont has has been struggling for a while. >> Yeah, like savage is fine. Ultimate's fine. I think that Yeah, the the casual content needs to get a little harder. needs to get a little bit. Not a lot because I know, you know, people be crying, but just a little. >> Doesn't even necessarily have to be harder harder, just more interesting, like more engaging. >> Less of the dungeon boss standing there for literally 30 seconds while nothing happens. >> Mhm. Like I understand people are like casual. I understand they're bad at the game, but like holy [ __ ] man. Like >> I'm fine with easy. Like Barber is one of my favorite bosses in the in the entire game and she's really easy. another like really really like dude some of the extreme trials especially in this [ __ ] especially in this uh expansion are awesome. They're [ __ ] awesome man. Like I also really like GBZ too. I thought GBZ was a [ __ ] 10 out of 10. >> Oh I liked Arkfeld actually. >> Yeah is like one of the easy Arkfeld is extremely easy. >> Yeah, but it's fun as [ __ ] though. >> But it's really fun. Yeah, cuz you're just he's just running around all the time. It's [ __ ] awesome. >> Okay, DPS stuff. I'm not sure I have a whole lot to say about Draon besides >> I thought it was awesome. I really liked it. >> I don't really >> I'm a little bit disappointed that the position so it seems like very focused on the positionals. >> Mhm. >> Which is awesome. I really like that. I I I actually also like that you can like time them so freely, but only having three positionals every 30 seconds that you can do all in a row seems like just quite not enough. But >> see, I I think they just should have got rid of them. I still think they should have got rid of them. >> Now, this is this is going to go back again to this thing where I say uh they should not make all the jobs not the same. I think there should be like at least two melees that just literally don't have positionals. Like, I think that's good. Like people, some people just hate positionals. There should be melees that do not have positionals, right? There should also be melees that do have positionals. I think both of those things should be true. But >> I Okay. The only reason >> the current game Yeah. Go ahead. >> So, okay. I All right. So, here's my problem with positionals currently is that they're not punishing enough because back in Storm or back in um Heaven's Ward, if you missed a positional, you dropped your entire combo. So, because it was so uh punishing, I thought they were fine. But now the now we're we've been in this weird like middle ground where the positionals you lose [music] potency. Yes. So technically you're punished but it doesn't really matter and you have like [music] stacks of true north and you have other abilities that negate the positional in the first place. So, like that's the main reason why I think that they should just get rid of positionals [music] because this middle ground is more of an annoyance than anything to me. Now, I'm not a melee main. I don't play melee a lot, but even though I don't play melee a lot, play melee a lot. I like whenever I have a pos like whenever I have a positional, I just hit true north like regardless. And in a vast majority of fights, true north lines up almost identical with any time the boss has to move. So because they're doing that, then what is the point of a positional in the first place? Like if they put something in the game, but then they give you this this tool to be able to negate it, then what's the point? So I guess that's my mental. Like that's why I'm not really a fan of positionals anymore. [music] Like back in the day, they made sense because you were it was it was very skill intensive because you had to try to get your positionals, but I don't even have to try to get them anymore. Like, so I guess that's my issue is that if they're going to put them in the game, I wish they were more punishing or I think they should remove them and make something else like give the like replace the difficulty of positionals or replace the I guess the mechanic or the whatever you want to call it. Replace the management of something with something else. That's it. So if they're going to keep >> That's a pretty fair take. >> Yeah. So, if they're going to keep them, I wish they were more punishing, but currently because they're not, I wish they would get rid of them and put something else in its place. That's it. So, it's not that I hate positionals. It's I hate the current iteration of positionals. I mean, you remember just now when I told you about tank, you were talking about how warrior identity should be, you know, and I was like, it's either they choose it to be big dick damage or they choose what you say the healing capability positioning is not. >> They didn't remove true north. for me because I always think that positioning is time to go already like >> with the current with how the game is currently played the reborn mode. I think positioning is more hindering like job expression and how they can make boss more crazy turning up and down left and right versus you know no positioning and then you just play the you play the boss rather you play the stupid positioning. But Square Enix decided that hey positioning for Draon it's the identity alongside Jam and we want to keep it and we even double down and we have [laughter] left and right flank bro imagine if I'm the ninja on the right flank or left if I'm M1 M2 and I see a dragon have to come over here now I know they can jump and remove that and I hope they do that I hope they do that I hope I hope people don't just like jump positional no position jump no position jump I hope people will be like okay I Jump rear, jump left, and then now I don't want to go over to the M2 side. I jump and right flank. I hope they use it for that thing. But bro, if all the jobs have position like that, we will be running left and right, up and down. >> You know what I mean? I I kind I don't know whether how I feel about that. I hope not. So, so keep in mind you can in in this when what we've seen in Dun right now, you can rip all three of your positionals in a row and then be good on your positionals for a minute and a half at least to 2 minutes. You can then have no positionals for for almost two entire minutes. >> Yeah, cuz that left >> you can rip all three in a row and then you use your three jumps on the next three for your next 60-second burst and then you have all the way up until the 60 seconds after that to do your next three. >> Wait, I thought it's one jump, one positional. No. >> Yeah, but you get jumps uh you get three jumps every 60 seconds and you get three positionals every 30 seconds. >> Mhm. >> So you can literally all three of your positionals natty in a row and then use your next three jumps on the next three positionals and then you have to and then you don't have to do any more positionals until the next set of three after that. >> Yeah. So they essentially made it even easier to hit your positionals because they they remove true north and put it into your rotation because the true north is on your jump >> for Draunia as the thing is the the problem I mean I haven't played Drago in a while right the problem is I asked this during the live presentation is that jump the snap jump or is the jump the follow jump >> am I going to be I think >> yeah so that is I mean having to use I mean if you tell me to weave true northeast as a as a dragon right yes positional suck yes they should go but at least you still got full freedom this one is you're going to be snapped at the d at that position so if you have to force to use it in your rotation right is it going to turn out to be a good thing >> I don't think it's timing I don't think you have to time it you get a 30 secondond buff when you jump and I think it just triggers the true north on the next time you have to do a positional which you can completely So, no, no, no. It actually triggers on the next GCD. >> Did he ever do a combo fill? >> Yes. Yes, he does. >> Oh, he just did it right there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, if you go back and watch, he'll do a jump and then he will not do a positional, but it will fall off. >> I see. >> Yeah. >> Don't forget that. Uh, so I guess I guess um the key here that like makes all this like free timing happen is uh the positionals are not like relating to your combo or any kind of tight timing anymore. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> you can stack you can stack several things up both the jumps and the positionals themselves. So if it's a bad time for you to jump, you only have to find one time to jump like in like a 25 second window. >> It's very flexible >> and and that is what I hope is the fight design in the next expansion because um rather than spread sheeting and press exactly the same button and you know you miss up one button is totally jo. Now, of course, you don't want to I mean, at the end of the day, you want to keep your GCD rolling. At the end of the day, you want to keep your cool down rolling, right? That one is just base fundamental, right? You don't want to over you want to you don't want to over cap resource. You don't want to sit on stack, not use, right? But, you know, able to react based on the fight and hopefully every fight is different. Not every fight start with, you know, two auto, one red wide. You know, fights can be different. So, all four turns now can be played in a different way and then you can play on different job with even more different ways. I hope that is what melee is going to deal with. You know, >> I hope one of the difficulties of the new expansion and this is just fight uh this is just this is just based on every fight they make. I hope that they go to more of like uh more randomness. So like Okay, so like let's take like phase one. Okay. Well, phase one, the boss isn't always going to start with auto auto raid wide. He's going to have like like four or five non- mechanic like nons super mechanicheavy abilities that he could do. So, he could start with a chariot. He could start with a dynamo. He could start with um an auto raidwide. He could start with like a a pair stack, a buddy stack. But my point now, all of those by themselves are simple. We've done them a thousand times. But when we are pulling the boss over and over and over and over and [music] over again and each time is different, I think that is going to add a lot to the fight >> is what I'm saying. So like I think that that the that the randomness now obviously on the big mechanics like if they're going to have some [ __ ] >> uh you know like a [ __ ] puzzle mechanic or something then obviously it can't be random there, right? But for their normal [ __ ] >> like I hope that they go more random with it is all >> they they should based on you know how they want us to play the new jobs. I think in order for the new job to be like what they say they want more flexibility and what they want you to make the decision of when exactly to use what right they have to do what you suggest. But the thing is there are some randomness they cannot do because if you're talking about progging, if you're talking about a savage fight, if you're going for like say wolf first and stuff, this will then means that good RNG equal easy prog. Good RNG equal in a shorter fight like savage, good RNG can just mean that a inferior team with good luck can win. But you know, best team should always win. But if they do random stuff, this can happen. So >> I mean I don't even think that Yeah. but I don't even think that that should be even considered a part of balance as world first. I I don't even think that >> No, no, no. Of course not. Of course not. But I'm just saying that if for people who are like into that thing and if they overboard with this, if they don't do it right, this type of thing can happen because this type of thing already happened in Savage. Even though Final Fantasy 14 right now is kind of scripted, but in ter instead of just Okay. Okay. I use chaos as an example. Are you getting earthquake first or are you getting water first? Some groups just get water first 10 times in a row and then suddenly when they get the earth they're like what what the [ __ ] is this? I mean some just get practice. >> This is interesting to me though. I think it sounds funny. >> It is it is like for us it's like what the [ __ ] we got Final Fantasy but >> in like a world race setting in the progression setting that could mean that it might it might it might take away a little bit but it's up to how they do it. In order for but but but TLDD auto in order for all these DPS new philosophy how the we play the the DPS. Yes, that needs to happen some randomness complete different opening like the first one minute could be the same mechanic like you say simple mechanic and also maybe you know one key mechanic but the key mechanic just happen at the correct time and then everything else just random but not too much. >> Yes, >> I think that would be best middle ground. Yeah. >> Yeah. So I think like uh like uh I guess fu is a good example how at the start it's it's either it's either spread or stack, right? Uh you know, you're either like in your proteins and you either spread or stack. Well, if you add like two more things to that. So now the pool of abilities like the pool of like basic mechanics is much is much greater. And also here's another thing too. If you guys notice, whatever you get first, you get the opposite second. You know what I'm talking about, right? >> Well, if you add more things in there, you still have to pay attention because you don't know what the second thing is that you're going to get, right? So, you still have to pay attention because there's a lot of times where you get the first thing and then you just shut your brain off because you already know what the second thing is going to be. Well, they need to fix that, too, I think. >> Yeah. depends on how they do the fight design because they cannot they cannot let they cannot the one the one thing that cannot happen is there is some mechanic that you will never see because you got good luck like that cannot happen. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The most important thing. >> Yeah. They could also make it based on HP uh to or um sorry uh they could also make it to where like uh it forces it forces everything right. So, you know how like um I guess in Fu uh P2 with Shiva, you don't actually kill Shiva. You get her to like 19%, but you still have to see everything, right? They could do more stuff like that as well, cuz that kind of solves two things at once. That kind of solves like it forces you to see everything >> and at the same time it also I guess if you have a death or something, there's like I guess always a chance that you can possibly still still get through the phase. So, >> so a lot of these things that you guys are saying are things that they have that are like things they already tried and had problems occurred and had to fix in the past. Like >> remember going from creator to to Deltascape and Creator uh basically every group that killed Alexander Prime just completely skipped the last mechanic with the bleed puddles because it was so late in the fight like you just never had to see it and like it was easier to just have good DPS and skip it than to actually do it. And they like very specifically reacted to that by making every single raid tier boss in Stormb Blood do their hardest mechanic at like 40% and then after that was just looping. >> These are these are already like things that they like have considered where they like they've been designing bosses for a long time to make sure you can't skip things that they don't want you to skip. So like I personally don't think that would really be a problem. >> But I also agree they should have more RNG in the boss fights. I don't necessarily mean like two like in Chaos where it's like two equally uh two equally static but concurrent paths that you can just randomly pick at the start or like you know dog first or snake first where it's like still the exact same scripted fight but there's just two of them. >> Like they should have more >> like more they've actually been doing this a lot more lately but like more 50/50s constantly happening on like just little things, right? Yes, >> like that's what I'm most >> think could do. Maybe think could do like think you know or sorry fate breaker and fru you know your example was the elemental break right on the right on the pole the spread into the lightning or fire. >> Yeah >> they could literally just add holy to that and then they could also make it so you could do burnt strike first in or elemental break first. >> Yeah. See that see that's what I'm talking about. >> Why for me why didn't they do that in in FU? Like >> you know what I mean? Like that's the first thing we were talking about when we did FU. We were like, "Wait, surely there's a holy. Wait, why didn't they just put a holy in here? This is an ultimate. Why not?" Now, if you tell me that this is a savage, I can understand. But this is an ultimate. Why is there no holy >> within those fire tna and within those elemental break? Why is it always fire and thunder only? Why not another one? >> Yeah. When I'm talking about the RNG, I was mostly talking about like the non um the non-main mechanics. So, like >> yeah, the the the final the problem in Final Fantasy bosses has never been the big set piece mechanics, right? The problem with Final Fantasy bosses has always been the time in between where they're just [ __ ] standing there doing nothing and you're just like hitting the boss and like nothing's interesting is happening, right? That's always been where like the encounter design like is flawed. The big set beast mechanics in this game are all like usually really good, right? It's just all the stuff in between. And they just got to make the boss like jump around more and like, you know, do little things here and there in between and like just be active and do something, right? And >> that's like one of the reasons why Barbara is one of my favorite bosses. She doesn't really do all that much, but she's just like jumping around and like kicking you and [ __ ] right? >> Yeah. It's like very it's like very interactive. Like it's not anything too crazy hard, but it it it's like nonstop. >> Um uh Oh god, trigger warning. I'm going to talk about World of Warcraft. Uh, but [laughter] Arthur's you played World of Warcraft a bunch. I know. Like some something you notice in like a difference with in boss design between those two games is in World of Warcraft there's a lot more RNG in the sense that like uh let's say there's like a spread mechanic, right? Let's say there's a spread mechanic and you drop like fire puddles on the ground, right? Like in Final Fantasy like you all eight people would get the spread and all eight of them would drop fire puddles on the ground, right? Like there would be very little RNG. And in World of Warcraft, maybe there's 20 people, but maybe only four of them get the spread and drop the fire puddle, right? You would think in Final Fantasy since all since there's eight spreads happening and eight people having to do this mechanic, it must be harder, right? But no, it's actually way harder in World of Warcraft because most of the time you don't have to do it and only sometimes you have to do it and that like [ __ ] with your muscle memory and like makes it a lot harder. And like that's the kind of RNG they could like introduce in Final Fantasy more where like >> maybe just maybe not only is a mechanic like randomly stack or spread, but maybe a random amount of people get the spreads, right? >> Like even if you randomly remove mechanics and have less mechanics randomly, that actually makes it harder. >> Yeah. Also like different timing also instead of I mean now now it's so >> now it's random but still scripted, right? Okay. Healers is going to get this first and then 3 second later DPS. Okay, this time it's going to be DPS first and then three seconds later is healer. You know what I mean? It should have been okay. Four of the eight is going to get first and then four of the eight will get it later. But it's not >> row base and obviously it's not like >> but also they should introduce Yeah, they should introduce some more variation in the timing too. Like not only does four random people get like the first spread and then four random people get the second spread, but maybe they're like really fast and maybe sometimes they're really slow and some and there's like, you know, >> just more [ __ ] with me so hard if if the if the timing was different, man. >> Yeah, exactly. >> That's what I hope they're going to do because then our rotation will be more fun, you know? That lines up with what they were saying during the uh panel >> where they made a big deal about uh actually during the two-minute thing, which we still have to talk about, but during the two-minute thing, they were talking about how uh they wanted like the the rotations to be more dynamic like to the situation. And you see in all these showcases how almost everything has like stacking timers now and like everything is like variable timing and that like really lines up with like their ability to do that. So, I hope they like really capitalize on that. >> Yeah, when they say but. Yeah, especially when they say but, they are like, okay, you can see what the boss is doing based on what all what randomness they going to do to decide what song you're going to uh use, right? Same for all the rotation. Yeah, that's why I think I think that's what they're going to go for. Can they do it? Have they done it before? >> I don't remember. I don't think so. >> Not even in 2.0. In 1.0, yes. Okay. In 1.0, yes, they did that in 1.0. Like in 1.0, you know, the boss would just be like like Ephree extreme in 1.0 for example, right, bro? Bro, if extreme st will just be a [ __ ] and then do three hit reset move and your tanks just cannot get back hit in those pattern which is why like there's just no way like there's a timer for provoke there's only this amount of empathy combo you can use and but for [ __ ] some [ __ ] reason they reduce the accuracy on those emity combo like bro your your when you are like okay I really need this combo to hit because if I don't I cannot get back hit and it always [ __ ] means so there is some randomness And then sometimes you'll be like guys this is the god run. Ephree just do eruption three times in a row. This is the god run. Now I don't know whether they will go extreme like that in 8.0. I hope not because that's miserable but a little bit a little bit in between like some some not but still within reason you know. >> I just thought of something really evil. [laughter] >> You know uh Doom Train how he like pumps his arms and does the the snap and then like a a twister happens. >> Yeah. Imagine how much harder that fight would be if they removed all the twisters from the entire rotation except for one and he could do that one any time during the entire fight. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. >> Like like literally that would be less [ __ ] happening but it would be so much harder. Like imagine if he just just at any point in the fight he just does one snap and if you don't dodge it, you're just [ __ ] >> Just throw you off because you don't you then you are not always like leaning towards where you are playing and just do your [ __ ] You know, >> you just like it forces you to pay attention the whole time. >> The entire time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And and this is the part where we talk about the the the how the job become easier. A lot of people only look at it's it's a simultaneous equation. You need X + Y and a number, but you can't solve X and Y without a second equation. So, right now, we only got one piece. We only got X, right? We only know how the job is going to be seemingly maybe easier. We don't know why. We don't know the Y factor. Where is the fight going to be crazy? Now if you have both X and Y then the easiestness might not be that easy as you think and therefore why the rotation needs to be easier is because we might have to be tested on doing the fight. >> Yeah. Your attention span even >> attention span. Yeah. >> Yeah. Cuz like I also noticed that like with all the jobs with like uh Okay. So like we're on or we're talking about Dragoon, but all of the jobs are having the the sage white mage like Lily treatment, right? Where you don't have to attack to build your gauge. Your gauge is built over time. So that leads me to believe that one of two things is going to happen. Either one, there's going to be a [ __ ] ton of downtime, and that's just how they're going to balance it. So you don't need to build your gauge because I am a fan of you hit your GCD, you build gauge. I don't like how the gauge just builds automatically, but it would be okay if the gauge builds automatically if the the fights are designed with that in mind. Meaning that like sometimes you will have to burst like at different times than than other times. You know what I mean? And then after that, there's going to be a little bit downtime or something, but basically with with [music] what they said um and I can't remember um who said it earlier, but your rotation is [music] now going to be more influenced by what the boss is doing. See, I like that a lot because that means that you're not going to do the same static rotation all the time, which I think is [ __ ] awesome. >> That was one of the best things I thought that they said. >> Better way to play. I mean, it's it's a different way, but it can be a better way to play the game as well. Yeah. I mean, we press the same rotation too too long already. Way too long already. I think the game needs to >> be a little bit different. Yeah. >> Like sometimes I'll be playing the game and I'll like literally just get [ __ ] bored because I'm doing the same thing over and over and over and over again like every single [ __ ] fight. So hopefully that changes. That's one of the big things that I hope changes. >> It's a different game, man. Like I think people need to really go into 8.0 you know, with the mentality that whatever you learn is good, but like all good things, everything going to come to an end. You acquired a special skill set. You think you you were really good. You know, you you you think that this might just mean that everything you work for is down the drain. Maybe you will hate it. But dude, think about it, man. It's a it's a you've been playing it for 13 years already. >> You want to go on another 13 like that will become a job, you know? >> That's not why you play games for man. Like you want to play different. Every expansion should feel different and they done it in 2 to 3, 3.4, 4 to 5 and then five to 6, 6 to 7, they stop it. They can't go seven and eight and still don't change. So, I think it's a it's a good time. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh, do you guys want to talk about evolve mode? >> Wait, ball mode. >> No, evolve mode. >> Oh, evolve. Oh, >> did you guys have anything else for DPS? Oh, I guess we could look at bard. We could we could look at range just real fast. Actually, no, no, no. go to go to Bard because I have a couple I have a couple things I want to say about Bard because I noticed >> I'm trying to find a button >> that I noticed on Bard. Okay, so here's here's like I I don't know how I feel about this yet, but Okay, so Bard breaks basically breaks down is you have three different songs. You can play them in any order. So it's like I guess kind of like Summoner right now where you can summon any of the three in any order. [music] Uh, and then when you play a song, it unlocks a GCD or it it basically unlocks a combo. Now, the different songs will give you different buffs. So, one of them gives you a healing over time. One of them gives you a barrier, one gives you sprint. Um, and then when you use all three of those, you unlock a a new thing. Um, the new thing, which I think is called radiant finale, it gives you a buff, but we didn't know what it does. Um, so so there's two things. I don't know how I feel about the sprint. I don't I don't think I'm going to like getting a random second uh 7second sprint. Um I might uh >> I don't think so. >> I don't think I'm going to like it. >> I don't like Okay, so so here's my issue. I don't like when another player has power to alter my character and how I play. Meaning that like let's say I'm trying to dodge a mechanic or move somewhere, but sometimes I will have sprint, sometimes I will not have sprint. I don't like that. And I don't like that because I can't plan for it, but mostly because what if I overshoot? That's my biggest thought. What if I like overshoot? And the sprint is only 7 seconds. So, I feel like that I feel like there could be something better there. Um, but I mean, we'll see. We'll see. I'm not going to like immediately like [ __ ] on it. I'm just, you know, I'm just saying I don't know how I'm going to feel about it. Um, another thing is, uh, we don't know what that one damage buff is. Now, we uh I don't know if you want to talk about the two-minute meta an hour later, but but um that >> kind of they kind of go hand in hand. >> Yeah. But like that that buff like it's good that they were removing like the two-minute meta. Um I actually didn't I didn't hate the two-minute meta. I didn't love the two-minute meta, but I didn't hate it. Um I if I had to pick one, I mean, I would definitely like I'm like a one minute guy, right? I'm a one minute man kind of guy, you know? Uh I like to get my [ __ ] done and then get the [ __ ] out. Uh so [laughter] like I I do think that if they're going to remove [ __ ] I don't think they should remove everything. I think some Yeah, I think some jobs should like cuz if you remove everything, then I think that takes away from some of the identity from some of the jobs. So, like uh I'm I'm basically going to be repeating myself here, but like I don't I don't want them to do the same thing where they're like, "Okay, we don't like two minute buffs anymore." And then they just remove every rate buff from the game from every job. Like >> like it's the same thing. Like I'm I'm saying the exact same thing. And and >> when when they whenever they make new jobs, 2minute buffs kind of started becoming one of those obligatory things that they're like, "Okay, we got to give this to like almost everyone." Right. >> Yeah. So it's like this it's like it's just it's just a core problem with what they do. Excuse me. Whenever they add one thing to something, they add it to everything. Or whenever they take one thing away, they take it away from everything. So, I'm pretty sure the bard they gave like buffs to um there's one buff that we didn't know what it did. Um at least I think. So, like I guess the question is is if that's a damage buff, you're going to you're going to you're going to have there's going to be something to play into, I guess. So, I think that is good. I think they can go overboard with it. I guess the way I feel about it is they could have easily kept bard and dancer as they could have had their cake and eat it too. They could have easily kept bard and dancer as buffing jobs and removed like timed buffs because bard songs like now they have this like permanent basically permanent passive buff that you're just giving to the party all the time with your songs, right? >> I don't know why they got rid of that. That could have just stayed and then radiant finale could have just like not given a raid timed raid buff, right? if they don't want people having to play around buffs all the time. Like they could have easily just kept the song buffs, the passive ones, and just got rid of the timed ones, right? Same with dancer. Dancer could easily just keep the standard set buff on the dance partner, the like basically permanent one, and they could get rid of like technical step or whatever, right? The they can continue to be buffing jobs and not like have this problem with timed buffs that they don't want to have to design around. So, like I'm actually really disappointed to learn that the songs are like a [ __ ] sprint and [ __ ] right? >> Yeah. I just I wasn't a fan of that. I think they could have made something better. I think that was just lazy. I think Okay, now now you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but Okay, from my understanding, this guy is the PvP guy. Well, I in some of the things that in some of their design decisions, it's clear that PvE was not considered when they made the change when they made the well when they made some of these changes. It and if it was considered, I feel like it was like really lazy and like the sprint was the sprint is a good example of that. And I mean again, maybe I'm wrong. Uh but I think that could have been something better. Um, I think it was purely sprint because it was something like that in PvP, but I mean I could be wrong. I'm guessing the sprint I'm guessing the idea behind the sprint is they are going to want the bard to like deliberately time it around mechanics like I guess >> you know you know >> I'm still not huge on but >> yeah you know the funny things that when when you guys talk about the butt right this is exactly what happened in Ion 2 you know like red buffs red buffs means that I mean this is this happened in Ion 2 obviously but this already happened in Final Fantasy 40 and it's happening now people are just going to play around with buffs like that one is just you there's nothing you can do about it right you can it doesn't matter like in ion they do it random it can be random interval it could be random timing it could be it doesn't matter people always say here is the most that's always the most optimal use of a red buff and people will always either play around it or people will save every single resource for it that's just how red buffs will force you to play the game and that already happened in Final Fantasy 14 so they want to get rid of it I think you should completely really cleanly delete every burst rebuffs. Okay. Now, passives like N says, I think passive throughout the entire fight, if it's like a small passive, it can stay. But in order for that to stay, that role must be needed. Not the job, but that role must be needed. Which that means that let's just say it but is the one that's going to give passive. That means dancer should also give. That means machine should also give. So that that is the only way they can make you balance. Because if they don't, right, then we're going to have another situation where nobody's going to take a machinist. Why? Because as small as those passive are, it's still going to be beneficial. And this is exactly what happened in ion 2 also. Chand bro, no one takes a cleric. It doesn't matter how much you heal. It doesn't matter how much damage you can do as a range. It doesn't matter whether you got raise or utility. It doesn't matter because chunter buffs are just so good that you take it because the smallest passive is the difference between killing something faster or slower. So what do they do? They now give cleric also chance. Now when they give the chance, they also cannot give too big of a buff. They have to give very small buffs like just 2% crit crit, 2% accuracy, stuff like that. They cannot even give you damage increase. So what else can they give you? They give you shields, they give you regen, and they give you movement speed, >> which is exactly what our butt is going to look like. So yeah, >> I think I do think that there's a consistency within all this MMO that they realize that what rate buffs bring to the game and what it will create and if you take if you take one away, you have to take it all away. If you put in a passive, it needs to be cannot be too strong. So I think that's what they're going for. Um I mean we only saw but we we we still need to see dancer because I think there's a big elephant in the room regarding dancer. People is wondering what's going to happen to dance partner, right? Because that is the identity, right? That is the most important identity. So now we see B becoming like that and clearly clearly two mini meta is gone, burst window is gone. Um party synergy is gone. I honestly think after playing World Warcraft and now playing ion, I do think that that is the right move they do. But they they have to have some support ability and hopefully it's not some shitty one because right now the B one is definitely the most bare bone, right? I mean barrier, regen, and sprint is the most barebone they can think of, right? So hopefully all the jobs >> if they want buffs hopefully it's not significant. I'm okay with it. >> I wonder if the buffs are even going to matter% >> gone. >> Like the regen and shield. I wonder if it's if it's even going to matter. I mean I >> regen and shield were quite a decent amount. >> Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, cuz I was about to say cuz I I'm just think >> it's like 10 to 15% HP. It's >> okay. Okay, that's good then. Yeah. Well, then that'll matter. Yeah, cuz I I was just curious because I didn't actually uh it just now hit me that I never actually went back and checked the actual value of the number. >> What's the uh cool down? You get three all three songs every 60 seconds it looks like. >> Yes, you get one. Yeah, you get one song. >> You get uh and they don't take like 20 seconds each to finish. It's only like 5 to 10 seconds each to like do the rotation, right? So, you get very flexible timing. >> Yeah, but you can't use you can only use one song per minute. Yeah, but you can time it extremely well. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See, I thought Yeah. So, like instead of the sprint, I thought it would be cooler if they gave you attack speed cuz one of the Okay, so one of the cool things about like Heavens Ward was remember the [ __ ] uh the Seline. Remember the what was that thing called that gave you They gave you GCD speed, man. >> Uh Faywin, maybe? >> Yeah, Fay Win. Yeah, you could actually get an extra GCD underneath Berserk, which I thought was cool. >> Okay, Bob. You get three songs per minute, but one not going to play around it and then it's a buff. I think it's okay. But overall, it's it's a players, man. Meta meta meta gaming is killing gaming, man. I just feel that >> whenever there's a meta and there's always going to be it's just not it's enjoyable for some but miserable for the others, you know? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But the thing is that also like like it's one it's one thing to like >> try to make the meta like less miserable or like more tolerable for like people who don't want to be forced into it, but it's another thing to like think you can completely remove it because you can never completely remove it. >> Yeah, you're not going to. >> That's why it's like it always >> I do think that I do think that I do think that the tree support buff they chose is very subtle. very subtle that there's definitely going to be better option. And I agree the spring one is definitely I wonder is it because they exhaust all option they're like yeah put the spring in because see that's what I'm thinking this game throws off a game like Final Fantasy 14 where >> move intricate movement is so important even a 5second sprint >> can throw people off >> and it's not going to be players mistake it's just because bro what the [ __ ] I didn't expect to move one ya more >> you can definitely kill someone with experience if you're trying to time it at the worst time possible >> that's what I was trying to say earlier Or is it like I don't know how I feel because like all jokes and memes aside, there have been times where I've had Expedient at different at different times. >> Fall off the edge >> and I almost like fall off the edge or I run too far. You know what I mean? And it's not it's not a problem if you're expecting it right. That's fine. But if you're not expecting it in a pug, >> I mean like I'm sure it'll be funny, but it'll also be a little frustrating too, >> I guess. uh since you can time the songs so deliberately, it's really not any different than expedient. But >> it doesn't mean you have two expedients in the game. So >> yeah. Well, also we didn't talk about it, but the white mage there was this uh the white mage wings. It now gives sprint, but we don't know if it gives sprint to the whole party or just the white mage. >> It does. It does. It does. I I check it. It gave to the other healers. >> Wait. Oh. Oh, did it really? >> Yeah. >> So that's like another sprint. Like dude, what the [ __ ] We're going to be zooming around. Imagine if we got white mage bard [ __ ] and then the dragoon whenever they do elusive jump. Dude, you have permanent sprint. >> They are okay. They they are definitely trying to find something. >> Bro, they saw expedient and then they were like, "Okay, let's just give everything sprint." They're doing it again. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So [laughter] hopefully they come up with a like, you know, battle better >> that is not going to be meta defining but at the same time not irrelevant you know because at the moment this game right it's only small shield a dispel you know I maybe a dispel or or I mean it used to give TP but TP is gone you know but >> that's just because they've completely forsaken any kind of crowd control as a mechanic for so long and I've always said that >> if they want to make utility a thing that's just something they need to bring back. But >> h don't know. It's difficult because like in this game I if you play other MMOs, you like quickly begin to realize how in Final Fantasy 14 how you basically don't interact with the enemies whatsoever. All the buttons on your bar say do x amount of damage and all the mechanics say walk to this place and all you do is attack the boss and you walk. And you don't ever actually like you don't interrupt the boss. You never like you don't move him. You don't like dispel his buffs. You don't like CC ads. You don't do anything like that. You walk and you attack, right? Those are the only two things you do in this game. >> I don't think it's going to change either because they >> Yeah, >> they consolidated those buttons. So, like actually someone uh someone in chat brought up a good point is that in older content, now I don't really like I don't really do Palace of the Dead type content, but I think this is really relevant is that sometimes you have to stun and sometimes you have to silence. So, if they take both of those abilities and put them into one, >> it's going to be kind of awkward when you want to stun something and when you want to because the stun might might matter in terms of like the enemy will stop attacking. You know what I mean? Like because >> when you stun an enemy, it's different than when you silence it. So, >> yeah. I'm I'm just saying like this problem where they're struggling to come up with buffs that aren't sprints is like >> Yeah. a problem of their own making because they've just completely like worked out any kind of interaction with an enemy that isn't walking somewhere like over the years and it's like extremely noticeable when you play another MMO and you're like what I have this button that like >> like soothes and rages on like the enemy or I can like interrupt him or like move people or like or pick my allies up and move them and stuff like that. Like none of that exists in this game anymore. So, are like, okay, here's the here's the thing, though. Like, I actually think that in raids if you have to do some of that [ __ ] I think it's pretty cool. I just don't like doing it on trash because I I really hate fighting trash. Um, so I'm biased on trash. So, you can take my opinion or not take it. Like, it's it's whatever, but but I'm not really a fan of trash. Uh if you think about stuff like okay think about living liquid right and how important it was to stun those ads like on like those those ads on the tornado phase stunning those ads was [ __ ] critical like that simple stun was the matter of a wipe or a clear. You know what I'm saying? Like if you didn't stun that [ __ ] whatever that liquid [music] that piston grease is or whatever the [ __ ] that enemy was and it reached to the middle, you were [ __ ] dead. Or if you didn't um or oh oh [ __ ] you remember in o in in in A4 when you didn't kick the [ __ ] steam thing and it blasted the healer and they lost all their mana. Holy [ __ ] dude. That healer was so mad. Like I think stuff like that is really interesting. I think stuff like that is really cool. So that's something that's been missing for a long time. >> Same as right. You know, dreadnot comes down stunning, slowing. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I think the dreadnot is is like super good, too. Yeah. I guess I guess also chat chat brought up E8. Um I Okay, so here's my thing with E8. Um >> wait, E8. >> Uh phase. >> Yeah. So So like >> the intermission is fresh. No. So, so that's what I was about to say is that is that E8 is probably interesting for people that didn't play back in the day. >> So, what I mean is is like if you played back in the day, E8 was very um uh was very mild in comparison to uh what we had to do back in the day. So, like if you thought E8 was good, um, like it's probably because you didn't play back in Heaven's Word, which is completely fine, but but if you but what I'm trying to say is that if people liked that stuff from E8, they probably would have liked the [music] stuff in Heaven's Word even more >> and Twintania even more is what I'm trying to say. like Twintania, Twintana leaving liquid the slime and then the hand at the end and Harley Kasus the animal face and M6 the yen face like those are good trash but >> Eden EA nah that is not good trash that is miserable trash that's the that's the difference yeah >> dude the animal farm was such a good [ __ ] mechanic dude I'll never forget I'll never forget this [ __ ] he tried to put the imp on the pig bro he was an imp and try to put it on the pig. The imp is clearly not a pig because it has a hat, but this [ __ ] tried to put the imp on the pig. And I will never [ __ ] forget that because we [ __ ] wiped to that [ __ ] That was a really good fight. >> M6 was a very good >> just in general. I think M6 is like one of the best. The ad phase is like literally what I wish fight designs were. It's just there's [ __ ] happening everywhere and you can like CC and like how tanky you are matters and like the how the healer positioning matters and like stunning the ads matters and like your movement to kite the water puddles around matters and your like burst timing matters and there's like [ __ ] happening everywhere and it lasts for like 2 minutes straight. >> Six was a 10 out of 10 fight. It was it was super good. Yeah. >> Um I like brawler swindler blaster and >> vortex though. That one is still my favorite. I mean the gauntlet difference. That one is a 10 out of 10. Yeah. Yeah. That one's a 10 out of 10 as well. Yeah. >> But for M6 definitely up there. Yeah. M6 is top two. Top two. Top two. Turn two. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's very good. But I I mean Yeah. I kind of like that. So if they were to bring that back, I think that would be cool. Uh here is a really good uh here's a good example of one that's obnoxious and there's no point to it [music] is the random silence in Eden in what is that? P1. You guys remember that >> first one? Is it the first one? >> Yeah, it was just a random silence from the ad. It's like, okay, yeah, sure, I guess. Okay, whatever. >> Oh, I love that because the they made it such a big deal when when Shadowbringers came out. They're like, we're changing all the silences to interrupts and it's a major expansion feature and the Casper is going to flash and glow when you have to interrupt and interrupting is going to be a mechanic. And then in one dungeon, the the the Fay dungeon, there's like the little frog guys casting the water spell. You interrupt them when you're pulling the trash. And the first raid tier came out and the the fasts on the the ad phase had the the the mana charge you had to that the tanks had to interrupt and then they never used it again. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yep. Yep. They done it once. Yeah. >> And that was it. >> Yeah. Expansion feature done. >> I did like it back in the day. I thought it became pointless though. >> Like I thought it started to become pointless. So, >> it that was also when they added all the all the CC abilities to the roll actions and they made the big thing about the interrupt and like I got so excited that the crowd control like they're they're making a comeback because they're they were making it like so much more standardized and available >> and then uh they just never and that was it. And they never used crowd control ever again for the last six years. It feels like >> Yeah. >> Everything's immune to everything. >> Yeah. So Chad brought up a good point. You can't just add it to add it. It has to have a purpose, which is I feel like that before it had a purpose, but then they just started to just add it to add it and it's like, okay, whatever. >> It's like, all right, here's a here's here's here's a another useless slot on my hot bar that I use one in every like nine raid fights. Like, great. See, that's the see that's the thing I [ __ ] hate that they do. It's like either remove it completely or make more use of it. I hate this like middle [ __ ] ground. Like I hate that [ __ ] It's like well we're gonna kind of have it a little bit but not really. But I [ __ ] hate that [ __ ] man. >> Yeah. Like two like they're they're removing all these buttons and this bard still has uh head grays and foot grays and arms length and pelaton on his bar. Like >> yeah, >> realistically none of these besides maybe arms length, but I don't even really like arms length. But realistically, none of these need to even exist because they clearly are >> not willing to utilize them. >> And they would be better off just removing it and replacing it with like something else and just like going back and fixing old stuff that's broken. I don't know. >> Yeah, they can never Well, I mean, unless they change DSR, they kind of pigeon hole themselves into always keeping in arms length because of that fact. >> Amlang, I think I'm slangs a good uh >> Hey, you have like five sprints now. I'm pretty sure you can do that mechanic with five sprints. >> I mean, no. I mean, the [ __ ] You got arms length. >> Yeah, the knock back. You can run in after the lava goes away if you're fast enough. If you have >> I mean, if you're fast enough, I guess. I don't know. >> Yeah. Are you I mean, you got five sprints, you'll definitely have sprint. >> Okay, this is completely off topic, but I just want to but I just want to point it out because some some people in chat might not know, but one thing I really liked about Dragoon back in the day in Heaven's Ward was that Fang [music] and Claw and Wheeling Thrust were random. I [ __ ] loved that. Holy [ __ ] That made that that one single thing made Dra Goon so [ __ ] fun because you never knew what you were going to get. It was so [ __ ] awesome. I wish they had that. I wish they would bring that back. Like not necessarily that, but that concept, right? Like what if like on a job you had like two or three different procs, but they were random. You didn't know which one you were going to get. That would be so [ __ ] fun to me, man. >> Yeah. Hey, man. A lot of these jobs used to have random procs and they all got worked out. >> Yeah. What was it? B also had one, right? What the [ __ ] was it called? Blood Blood Letter. >> Yeah. Blood letter. Yeah. Yeah. Blood letter. >> Yeah. Bart had a lot of random procs over the years that all got removed. >> And Imperial Arrow and >> Well, I guess what I'm talking about is not necessarily a proc. It's um because what Dragoon had, you were [music] guaranteed. So, it was more like an RNG. It was a It was an It was an element of RNG in your rotation. It wasn't a proc because you were guaranteed to get it. So >> I guess what Yeah. So I guess what I'm talking about is like, you know, let's say on I I don't know like Reaper for example, whenever you hit uh [ __ ] your Gluttony um one of your positionals would light up and that was the one you had to hit, but you didn't know which one. So that's like kind of an example of what I'm talking about, but but for the but for the people that know that that that play back then, you know what I'm you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. So like I'm Yeah. So I'm not talking about like RNG. I'm talking about G Well, it it is random, but it's guaranteed. So it's not like it it doesn't affect your overall DPS is what I'm trying to say. You still get the same overall DPS. It's just unless you miss. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Unless you miss. I think the only problem I had when proc was just that uh the procra GCD of buffer for you to look at it because that was really hard to do on high ping >> cuz you can't actually see the proc until like more than halfway through your GCD on high ping sometimes. >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. >> But also we know that they don't care about ping. >> Oh. Oh, I do have a question about I I do have something I want to bring up though. So, here is a I don't know if I want to say controversial question, but okay. for the DPS. Now, they did not show a caster, but they did mention, you already know where I'm going with this. They did mention that they're they summoner rest is going to be gone. >> Okay. >> Wait, they did >> uh he kind of JP [clears throat] He very he very heavily hinted at it. He said he said Okay, he didn't say it was going to be gone. He said that they wanted to take it away or he said some [ __ ] like that. He Yeah. Um, so, >> oh, in the past, right? >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that now. I thought you No, no, no. Sorry. I should have been more clear. Yeah. In the past. Yeah, I remember that now. Yeah. Um, okay. So, so I guess the question is, okay. >> Uh, and me and Arthurs have talked about this before, but do you think that they should remove it? And if you do, do you think Red Mage should be the only one? And um, if they remove it from Red Mage, like what are they going to replace it? Because me >> I think just real quick I think that they should just remove [laughter] every single [ __ ] raise and they should make it a roll skill on like a two or three minute cool down just a roll skill insta cast every single one of them has it and it's like a two or three basically >> that is exactly what I've been saying for years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Just do it like criteria like >> it would be like criterion. Yes. I spent the last I've spent the last 8 years so consistently saying this exact same thing that Rays needs to be like throttled somehow because it's way way too strong the way it is now. >> Yeah, >> raise is actually insanely powerful and even and like like you literally just literally adding a cool down to the rays would be enough to do that. Like let's say you could have like a 60 to 90 second cool down on a healer raise and like a longer one on a caster raise, right? And then maybe and then then maybe there's space for the red mage one to still be better than like the summoner one because it's like a shorter cooldown or something. >> So I guess >> someone in chat right is saying that someone in chat is saying that wo raises kind of but not like okay wo is way too long for one race for 20 people. >> Wow is very very strict on >> raising. It's very [ __ ] annoying that you are you know at the very first phase and then one [ __ ] or two guys just die and then you just like well we got to repool. No, I think I I personally prefer it that way, but that would be just way too big a swing of how the game is now. So, like it wouldn't it wouldn't be good, I think. >> So, I think like you just give, you know, maybe four, you know, or or or just four raises and anybody can use it. But if you want immersion, then okay, you know, you give it four raises, but only caster and say a white mage can, a healer can use it. Sure. So even if you like you know you are talking about strat you eat [ __ ] on the first AoE okay you guys don't want to wipe okay just raise four people and go like you it doesn't disrupt flow I think that's fine but unlimited race and especially raid mage instant race like that no like I'm I'm I'm very surprised that world proc group would take until 67 oh god here we going like they will wait until 6 7.0 and then they start to like why don't we bring a raid and a summoner I've been saying for years bro since 4.0 Oh, you [ __ ] that is going for war first should just run four rate majors. What you [laughter] guys >> 5 years, 10 years to realize that. >> That is uh that is something that was in the Neverland playbook for basically the entire time. It's just the situations that came up just made it not the best option. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I understand like like ultimate obviously al going to be savage different story. >> But we definitely almost zoned in to the final boss with four red mages before. >> Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. So it's like yeah it needs to go it needs to go and and I think with I mean you don't want to make too much change right you don't want to be like what the [ __ ] why did you do this so just use whatever you have in the game criterion use your criterion system as the new way of raising in high-end content right sav okay maybe okay maybe normal mode you want to give them three each if say the midcore mode you want to give them two each and then savage you want to give each person one each and then ultimate you only get four I mean it doesn't matter in ultimate I don't think you can even expand all four anyway even in pro Right. So I think yeah they can start with that. Yeah. So you were saying right if you take away race what you going to give it? Right. Oh just now we talk about this man I got a brilliant idea. You take away race from rap m you give it sprint. Boom. >> Oh [ __ ] >> So like okay this is actually pretty relevant because of the like new extreme trial uh that just came out. Like uh I know I've been doing it with Zeno a lot in like in like PF or whatever, right? And uh like it's a [ __ ] [ __ ] show in there, right? People die constantly. Like I think it's okay if you know let's let's say for example you give like healers uh like a just an instant cast raise on like a two-minute cool down or whatever and maybe it like has two stacks so you start with two right I think it's okay if like something crazy happens and like half the party almost wipes and you like pull off some crazy recovery with like your four raises on your healers and like maybe you have a caster that has another one and you like basically raise the whole party, right? Like I don't think that's like necessarily a problem like that raises are strong in this game, right? It's fine that raises are powerful. Like the game is like designed around that for a long time, right? I think it's a problem when you can do exactly that like every 60 seconds for like an entire extreme trial and you end the extreme trial with like 35 raises and still kill the boss somehow. Like that is that's it's too much. Like at some point there has to be like a limit where if you're almost completely wiping to every mechanic, maybe you just don't deserve to kill the boss. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> I do think though >> like even for an ultimate, right? I I was pretty I was a little bit upset. No, I I Okay. Okay. But DSR did make it right by how it was at the end. But I was a little bit upset that you know in Estinian phase you can get a damage down like that and still enrage the fight. Enra the face. And I'm just like, bro, maybe people just don't deserve it. They should just die. How can they miss a tower, miss a Nash and lash and then get a damage down and still continue to fight? No, I don't think it's an ultimate. >> I don't think they, like N says, there are just some things sometimes players should not be given the second chance. You know, >> harsh, but it is what it is. >> I do think though that being able to recover in that way is really [ __ ] satisfying. It's really satisfying >> like >> but too much, right? that that needs to be. >> So there has to be a limit, right? Yeah. So there obviously has to be a limit, but man, when you like >> when when some [ __ ] happens and you actually are able to raise everybody and just pull it off. >> Like it it feels really good and I think you should be be like rewarded for rec. Like I you should be punished for a mistake obviously, >> but you should also be rewarded for recovery if it's possible. >> Yeah. Like three. Yeah. Limit the three to four race. Yeah. >> Okay. I see. I like I saw in chat someone said like add more body check mechanics. That's the thing. The reason body check mechanics exist is because you can so often and so frequently do these entire like uh entire party raises and like basically just survive a mechanic you completely failed like so consistently. >> Like if they know if they reduced the amount of raises you had access to they could have less body check mechanics which people famously don't like. Like like players don't like body checks. you could have less body check mechanics because like const constantly stringing to excuse me constantly stringing together individual deaths would like eventually have some kind of consequence right and right now it like basically doesn't besides for DPS but the problem is that in any content below savage like losing the punishment being losing DPS just doesn't matter >> basically >> that is one thing I think that they I really hope they start to add uh because the jobs are well based on what we've seen, it seems like they're dumbing down the jobs a little bit, at least for tank anyway. Uh I'm I'm, you know, I don't really play Dragoon that much, so I don't know. But, um, Dragoon look pretty simple to me. But my point is is that I do hope that they start to add tighter DPS checks because I think that DPS checks should be a part of the fight because the like DPS should be a mechanic in itself. Like >> obviously you don't want the entire fight to be a DPS check, but >> you shouldn't be able to have like three deaths during Prague and still clear with DPS. Like you shouldn't be able to accidentally clear. You know what I'm saying? like if you have like a death or something like I do think that there should be more more DPS like you know honestly P8 uh even though I got mad P8 was actually a really really good fight in terms of damage it's just the jobs were unbalanced >> unbalanced >> yeah so it actually wasn't the like it it always really annoyed me man it always really annoyed me that they decided to nerf the fight instead of just buff the jobs because the fight was actually very the fight was good. It was good. It was the jobs that were imbalanced. But because they just decided to take the lazy way, they just nerfed the boss so they didn't have to touch the jobs. Well, now that just that didn't actually change anything. Like it didn't change anything. Like the jobs are still unbalanced. It just meant that the [ __ ] jobs could clear. Like it's just kind of annoying like when they when they do that. So, [music] I hope that in the expansion the [ __ ] like there's actually DPS checks. I hope like because M11, man. Okay. M11 was the best third turn we've had in like I think since A3 that far you think. >> I mean, I really do. >> Fateer was good. Like I I like Fate Breaker. >> I I don't think it was I don't think it was better than M11. The only one in my opinion that was better or equally as good was Hakarus. >> Mhm. But in terms of difficulty, Tyrant was like, in terms of difficulty, Tyrant was literally perfect. >> It was It was [ __ ] perfect. It was so good. It was so [ __ ] good. And it was so good because >> Well, not just because, but one of the reasons I think it was good was because of the DPS check that it had. [snorts] >> What about Okay. Okay. See, no, no, no, never mind. If they if they if they will, they would have talk about it, right? Like you see all these red buffs and all these like rays or rather utility, right? We are just thinking about whether they will just take it away from summoner or red mage which I think is going to be gone. But why didn't they think about just rather than physical range caster and melee, right? Why didn't they just go with like pure DPS and support DPS, you know? But I guess they didn't talk about it on keynote. They didn't put out the slide like the ballet like the tanks. So I guess they are not going to do that. But >> that's kind of this seems to be the intended design space of of ranged. >> They're clearly supposed to be the support role. >> I think that like um Oh. Oh. Oh. If Okay, sorry. Sorry. Uh if they take away uh Red Mage's raise, right, and they give it to a roll skill. Okay. like cuz I don't really play red mage and I understand red mage is supposed to be like is supposed to you know have support abilities and also have like DPS abilities right it's supposed to be a hybrid that's my understanding of it so correct me if I'm wrong so if they take away that raise what could they give to red mage to replace that identity that it lost >> I mean to identity is debuffs also also debuff but they used to have it debuffs in this game but they just take it off So there goes white identity. >> So did that come from >> the identity of the identity of white mage is that uh it has black and white magic. So like they could just have more healing somewhere in the kit. >> Okay. >> I mean M11 is they do everything right. They can nukes, they can buff, they can heal. >> Okay. So I guess my question is >> all four magics. Yeah. >> So I guess my question is from a person that is ignorant to red mage in like 11 or outside of 14. Is it its whole like its sole job identity is not tied to the res. Correct? >> No. >> Like it just happens to be able to chain res in 14. Like that's a >> it's because uh it's because being able to use black and white magic is like very close to being essentially able to just cast all magic. >> So like they become like very utilitarian and basically just allow you access to both like to everything basically. >> Okay. Yeah. But but it's not specifically the race. So, so I guess my question is is if they took away the ray the rays, you could still keep its identity by adding something else to it. >> Yeah. I mean it able to it [clears throat] able to cast black magic and do damage is already its basic identity already. Like if they decide okay if they want to put ra mage as a healer for example then yeah they you know they just put more healing spell and then let them have you know thunder one thunder two. Okay there you go. Actually nobody would have complained because Ray Mage could do that. Uh, and then uh I mean they if you want to talk about identity, why the [ __ ] is dark knight in the tank? So I think in Final Fantasy 14 if they decided that red mage is a DPS and red mage can do DPS. I don't think even if red mage don't have a cure, don't have uh don't have magic barrier and don't have race. I don't think anybody would be complaining about say oh god there goes rage suddenly. I don't think so. So I think the race and any raid mage support ability if they decided to just let them all go and make it like black mage but play a different way that's completely fine. You know that's still a red mage. >> I think the the expectation is that if you have white magic you should have at least some kind of support ability. But like what specifically that is I don't think is really >> Yeah. I don't So yeah. So it's not okay because like whenever I talk about [ __ ] removing raises from casters >> uh and putting it on a roll skill, I always get two dumbass [ __ ] responses. One is that then black mage will just be able to res five times in a row. Lol low. And I'm like, "No, bro. There's a cool down. It's like two [ __ ] minutes." Like, okay. Anyway, and the other one is that if you take away the res, you'll take away Red Mage's identity. And I never thought that the rays was the entire job or the entire job identity of a [ __ ] red mage. Like I was under I was always under the assumption that it could [music] heal and cast like fire >> that it was like both. >> The the most like iconic white m the like white magic spells are like like rays uh like cure uh haste like stuff like that. Even buffs also are like very >> very like typical white magic >> attack shell failings. Yeah. But because these are not present in the game, right? So obviously they're not going to add it into the game. >> I mean, magic barrier, they could just literally rename to shell and it would just be straight up a white magic spell. Yeah, >> I think magic barrier can stay. That's fine. Yeah, that's okay. Like even just magic barrier and verure, even if it's only these two ability left, I will still say yes. You know, that's a ray mage. >> Yeah, I think that's fine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They would just have to make Vure like a little less trash. But >> what if they made it Yo yo yo what if they made it to where it was off GCD? >> That might be kind of sick if red mage could could off GCD heal people. >> That might be sick. But obviously you put a cool down on it, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Maybe it would act. Maybe it would act as like a tetra or like an essential dignity or something. Maybe it could be an off like >> an AoE. Even an AoE I think is I I think a a Veratica one I think is okay. Off GCD I think it's fine. So I guess like do you guys think they're going to do that in 8.0? >> Remove race 100%. >> Remove race. Yeah. >> You think so? I don't think they're going to mess with it. >> At least summoner 100%. >> Maybe only because he said that he wanted to before otherwise I would say. >> Yeah. Yeah. I guess I was more >> mage. Maybe no more dual cast race. You know what I mean? Maybe a swift cast race. Okay. >> So basically Ray Mage will race like a summoner and dual cast race will be gone. Yeah. >> So I think >> so I guess Okay. Okay. Well, then here's here's my here's my question. Do you think it's good for the game that a red mage is mandatory for Prague? >> No. >> Like, because me, I think that it's stupid if you have >> one job from a role that has something that the other three don't that can impact the raid as much as a raise. Like I think it's okay if you have like something that's different, but I think there comes a point in time where that something there's a threshold. Now maybe I'm wrong on this, but there's a threshold of how big of an impact that is. And I think that a raise is a big enough impact. It would it would be like Okay. Okay. Okay. It would it would be like if they gave Paladin a raise. Like Paladin's already like mandatory for Prague, but let's say you gave it a raise, you know? So I think the way I feel about that in the context of the new expansion is if more jobs are getting things like draons like 90% m jump and bard is getting like you know >> time to movement speed and like actually good AOE shields and stuff >> like >> uh Paladin had a raise I think the biggest problem it's like don't even like the one of the only jobs that actually gets something unique to just it compared to like any other role >> and It's like so so like unique and like different from every other job. >> And if they succeed in making every job have some kind of like niche thing that they have that's specific to them, I think like Veret would stand out a lot less cuz like you could say the same thing. For example, if all the melees were just like guys that did all the exact same thing, but Dragoon had a [ __ ] 90% cool down and was literally a third tank. You would say like why would you never bring a dragoon for prog? You can cheat so much mechanics with this, right? >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's gonna happen. >> I guess we don't have to talk about it. >> That that that 90% ain't gonna stay, man. I'm just saying. >> So So yeah. So I Okay. I don't think it's going to like 90% is a [ __ ] ton. Like I don't think it's going to stay, but I don't know. We'll see. >> I think that n Yeah, 90% is just too much because >> Yeah, >> that's twice as tanky as a tank three. And also a lot of mechanics that give you like magicones to make you like, you know, force kill you if you like do something wrong. >> A lot of those magic phones aren't actually bigger than 1,000% which a dragoon can tank with 90%. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You could because it's basically tank LB3, right? Is the 90. >> It's two tank LB3s kind of. Uh but >> I think that it'll it'll probably get lowered to like 80% probably. 80% and I think >> I think 80 to 70% is at a level where it's like still feels impactful but like you can't do such uh disgusting cheese with it anymore. >> I think at 90% you're going to be able to ignore [ __ ] or you're going to be able to do some weird stupid [ __ ] where you like sherk a dragoon and then just have them tank it and because remember you're going to be able to sherk way way more now. You can like d like you can sherk back to back now cuz you could just use both your stacks of provoke. You know what? You got two [music] tanks. You could sherk that [ __ ] dragoon four times, bro. You imagine, dude, you could solo a [ __ ] wave cannon with a dragoon. That's insane. >> Yeah, he can literally if you put an adlow on a dragoon with a 90% he will literally an entire party stack by himself. They will they will they will just b they should just balance it to the point that that is just going to be you use it you use it at the wrong time you [ __ ] up you might not die I should never be >> if you're going to keep the 90% mit on a 60-second cool down it will actually be mandatory for grog >> yeah you'll break the game here >> dude you know what that reminds me of when um of when a dragoon was better at tanking physical than a dark knight in heaven's ward because if you guys remember draon used to have this ability what he called keen flurry. It was [ __ ] nuts. It was like 80% parry rate or some [ __ ] and then as a tank you had dark dance which was only like 40. It was a [ __ ] joke, man. Kind of reminds me of that time. >> Yeah. Keane flurry. You can use the dragoon jump how uh once per uh >> once per burst cycle which is every 60 cycle. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. But you don't have Yeah. But the thing is is right there's like you can save it. >> You don't have to use it though. That's the thing. You could just hold on to that [ __ ] >> Nah, you won't get to that point. I I don't believe you will get to that point. I think I think it will just be it will be nerfed or balanced to a state where cheesing that will cheesing with that will never be a consideration. >> I think 70% >> [ __ ] warrior man. I'm just switching to the tank cuz they don't make bust [laughter] because they don't make tank busters happen more than once every minute anyway. So, I'm just going to save my my jump for the buster. >> Yeah. combined with the fact that you can force aggro on someone now. It's kind of crazy. >> Yeah. Fall shook, right? >> No, you could wait. No, you can hold on to sky high forever. >> Like the actual proc. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The actual proc is it's it stays there forever. >> Yeah. But you would like uh you like press it right before you get a new one, right? >> Yeah. >> But yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to waste one. Yeah. >> And there's actually a pretty good leeway, right? It gives you how many seconds? Like four seconds. >> Quite long. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you're saying that's how they fix it, make it fall off. Yeah, maybe. I think 75% >> 75% I think is like the magic number where it becomes not as egregious where you're not at least that's the point where you're not literally more tanky than a tank anymore, >> man. These [ __ ] talk about main tank and off tank. They they [ __ ] [ __ ] draons like [ __ ] >> dragoon like literally could be an off tank. >> Yeah. >> The only thing they can't do is provoke, but if you can sherk twice, you can just [ __ ] >> Holy [ __ ] man. Nah, dude. that you know what that's going to do for older content. Jesus Christ that's going to do a lot for older content like if you choose you could do some really stupid [ __ ] like really stupid [ __ ] >> You don't even need another tank at that point. You just take a dragoon. >> So yeah, I guess back to the ver thing. >> Oh, right. If every job gets some things that are like as unique as this, I think like ver won't be such a standout problem anymore and it'll be like less of a of a pain point because in order to have vers you would have to like give up something else, right? If every job has like cool [ __ ] like this. >> Yeah. No, >> the problem with red mage rays is that you're not giving up anything else for the safety, right? It's just literally free safety and it's so immense. >> Uh did you guys have anything else for DPS? Uh ah just like thanks right we only see one dragon I really hope I mean for for me like ninja viper pro I feel like viper is already evolved >> yeah I know that's what I'm saying what the [ __ ] is going to be evolved viper one button >> yeah yeah what is [laughter] the evolve viper going to be so these are I mean >> so far the game is pretty good you know what I mean like I I >> probably just going to combine buttons better >> yeah yeah so right now I think that only reaper is the the one that stood out to be like a red buff aside, right? >> Yeah. Which thank [ __ ] because Reaper Reaper. >> No, >> Reaper is the only one that sticks out to be the the one that needs help the most, right? So, you know, hopefully all these DPS they they do the evolve. It will be I I I really hope it's completely like every DPS job is completely different. Like right now, I think they are except you know, Reaper and Viper have some similarity. But if they can nail the evolve mode for all these job and really maintain every single job identity and fun and flexibility like we saw on dragon was really good by the way the showcase for dragon. >> Yeah. No, it was awesome. Yeah. Like I'm interested in playing it actually. >> I'm going to level it. >> I hope all min all DPS are different like that. And then you know we just we play the boss rather than we play the job. We play the boss. you know, hope >> dragoon is what gives me hope that not all of them are going to be extremely simple because Draon's actually pretty good. >> Yeah, I think it looks really good. I was impressed. But then again, I don't but then again, I'm not a dragoon main. So, you know, >> there's a there's a lot of jobs like Viper where they could like barely change how the how the rotation works and just increase the like increase the amount of buttons that replace each other because even Viper has a bunch of buttons that like you know writhing snap the like regular range GCD that there's no reason that can't just turn into the uh uncoiled whatever. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know how uh you press like the button the vice winder the one that gives you a stack and you get like the two big hits like the two big hits that you do right after that. There's no reason that can't just replace your regular one too, right? You know, stuff like that. >> Uh there's some weird [ __ ] where like you're supposed to use like the speed first or something or the power first. But you know what? They should just force it. You just use one of them. Like it just I I think it's kind of stupid that I have to have three buttons on my hot bar, I guess. But >> just for vice winder. Yeah. like like Vice Winder could just be one button and then the other two could just replace your regular one too, you know, stuff like that. Like they can condense a lot of buttons just like that because they were kind of like they were kind of like half pussyooting doing that for like the last two expansions and like still there's just still so many mutually exclusive buttons that like are taking up extra hotkeys for no reason that there's so many there's so much they can condense even without changing anything that I think like Viper probably won't even change that much. >> Yeah. I didn't uh Yeah. I don't have anything more for DPS, do you guys? >> Oh, do you want to talk about the AoE? >> Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. So, >> I think I think we know what they're going to do already. >> Let me show you. >> Yeah. Yeah. I like that. >> Something you can see when he's doing his combos here. As you see, he's doing his single target combo. There's no like there's no AoE circle around the bottom that shows this. So the effect the skill effects the animation effects in this game are usually very actually very good at showing you the exact radius of the effect like in the animation, right? >> Mhm. >> So when he does like Gogle, wait until he does something interesting. So these are all just single target attacks. There's not really any kind of splash animation. I think what they are going to be doing is all of the filler combos are going to be single target only now and all of your AoE is going to come through your cool downs. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And the reason is that if you look at all these dragoon cool downs, like you see right here, you can see the rectangle shape of this >> on the ground, right? So, you can tell this is a cleave. And all these positionals are also cleaves. They have the same the same thing on the animations. Same with this entire combo. This entire combo is all cleaves. You can see rectangles and circles on all these attacks. You can literally see what is AoE and what isn't. and the the regular one, two, three combo on uh all three of the jobs that aren't white mage are not do not have AOE's on them. And because they're adding so many like short cooldown gauges and short cooldown like short cooldowns to all these jobs, I think what's going to end up happening is your one to your filler combo is just going to be all single target and all of your AoE is going to come from your from your cool downs. >> See, I don't that's my theory. see that like man it I mean I guess it's okay but that just means that there's going to be virtually no more M6 [music] optimization you know >> I actually actually don't agree uh I think M6 actually still works perfectly fine under the system >> it just means that it just means that as part of your AoE rotation you're going to have some portion of time where you're being forced to single target and that means you have to pick like intelligently what thing you want to single >> target so I guess that's what I was talking about is that like you're you're not going to have Okay, so basically there's going to be there's going to be an opportunity to AoE, but it is better to not AoE because you have to kill something faster. And I think that the way that it is set up now is that because your burst is is set up on your AoE, right? You're just going to burst the AD anyway, so it's going to cleave naturally. So that's why I think like the basically that choice I think there's >> I think that choice is going to be more removed is all. >> Well, I don't think that's any different from how it is now. You're you're either using your filler. You're either using your filler or you're using your burst at the time that you need to use. >> That's right. You guys don't you guys don't play a broken job like warrior. That's right. Okay. Well, on warrior, let me tell you, some of its AoE is only a gain on four, and some of its AoE is a gain on three. And >> yeah, Viper is a gain on two, you know, and Viper doesn't even [ __ ] matter. [laughter] You are pressing the same button. >> So, so I guess Okay. So, you know what? You know what? I'm just gonna agree with you, Nar, because my example is specific to a single [ __ ] job and it's not it's not like it's not in the norm of the game. So, you're probably right [laughter] because I remember on M6 I had to there were a ton of options I had to do between doing like an AoE combo, a single target combo, a decimate or a chaotic cyclone. There was like every single one of those choices mattered in like Prague. >> Yeah, warrior is a little messed up on its potency. >> It's really bad. Yeah. So, you know what? Yeah. >> Even uh even uh uh Chaos Thrust or whatever it's called, Chaotic Spring has a >> Mhm. >> has a cleave on it. Every single every single thing that's not a filler is AoE. >> Yeah. >> You can see you can see right here the rectangle. >> So then it would probably be safe to assume that like whatever the equivalent is for Paladin [ __ ] on the other jobs is going to also AoE. So fell cleave is going to AoE, Blood Spiller is going to AoE, Burst Strike is going to AoE, all that [ __ ] >> Uh, presumably, yeah, it's kind of hard to imagine how they could make an animation that makes that make sense, but maybe I don't know. That's just the current >> on the end of it. Whatever. >> That's just the current pattern. >> Yeah. >> I mean, the [ __ ] the proc Holy Spirit turned into confir AoE. So, >> wait, it did? Yeah, the the proc Holy Spirit is just confidier now. The blade combo is only the last three. >> Oh, the animation though looks the same as Holy Spirit. Or does it? >> No, the the proc the if you just cast Holy Spirit natty, it casts a holy spirit. But if you do it at the end of the combo when you get the proc like here. >> Oh yeah. >> For your combo, it's >> confir. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. >> So they'll find it's just one of one of them. Yeah. I mean it I think it will just splash from something. That's >> Yeah, they're going to they're going to find some way to turn it into an like maybe Fel Cleave will like >> always use the inner chaos animation and it'll be a cone or something like I don't know. They'll find how do you guys >> Now how do you guys feel about that though? Do you guys think that having AOE exclusive button is good? Do you feel that that will make it better or do you guys don't mind some of this ability just become SPL or some or all ability just become splash? You know, >> I actually like which one do you guys prefer? I actually like having AoE specific abilities because it >> because if you don't have the AoE specific ability, it removes a line of thinking. But some jobs though like samurai, reaper, viper, I feel like some of these job have like a couple too many AoE buttons. You know what I mean? >> Like Gunreer is perfect. Gun breaker is actually perfect, right? Gunreer a lot naturally. Yeah, Gunreer is perfect, right? You can >> Sorry, one >> like for me, I think that I I think that that is like a like some jobs are okay, but there are some job that's too many. But I do agree that AoE button should still remain, you know, separate versus all consolidated like that. You can consolidate something. Sure, one one two three become one one sh one provoke become should and provoke combined. But I feel like some AoE button should be some, you know, should be separated. >> I think it's going to start to become really like really I don't know if the words redundant or not, but it's like you're going to do your single target rotation on also AoE. I think that's like I don't know, man. That's weird. It's >> I actually uh I actually think the separate AoE filler buttons are like one of the worst things in the entire game. And I think it's completely pointless, >> personally. Like because all it is is you have one set of keybinds on one part of your keyboard for one to two targets and you have the exact same set of keybinds, but you have to have a completely set separate set of keybinds for three plus targets. And you know in in games like WoW like there are a lot of like classes where all the AoE just comes from the cleave and all the filler single target and it works like way better. >> So like the the thinking for AoE doesn't turn doesn't uh the thinking for AoE as you were saying Zeno it it changes from I'll just press the AOE buttons when the number is three. It turns into I'm just I'm going to have to time my cool downs around when the best time to AoE is. >> Yeah, I guess maybe Yeah, I guess maybe that is better. Like I like vipers awakening and I hate reapers and shroud in AoE for example. >> It doesn't make sense that [ __ ] hell reap so much but you know >> like like if if and shroud the normal and shroud single target just splash like I think that's okay >> basically that you know that feeling. >> So I guess so I guess your lineup thingy would be you it would it would change from using your AOE to moving your burst later. >> Yeah, exactly. You know that feeling you get when you're like, "Oh, yeah. I'm like I'm like saving all my gauge. I'm going to [ __ ] pad the [ __ ] out of these ads." That becomes like basically the the focal point of >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it'll be better. Yeah. Maybe it'll be a lot better then. I think man Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, so here's here's why I really like the AoE GCD, [music] though. Um I think in the grand scheme of things, you're right. But uh so here's why. Okay. So, here's one thing that I really like. So, after we cleared the raid tier, I got the Gunbreaker weapon. And one of the one of the best [ __ ] times I've ever had optimizing two targets is actually been on M10. >> And uh the reason why is because Gunbreaker is unique in the fact that you single target for double, but you use your ammo combo AoE on two. So essentially, you're it's just like the level of optimization between those two targets on Gunbreaker is just so [ __ ] badass. And it's badass because of the AoE button because it's a significant increase like because the the faded circle plus the the other thing is is a is a damage gain over just a burst strike. [music] So I think I think maybe I'm looking at it from a single perspective whereas like >> Okay. No, no, no. Let me stop with that. If burst strike is AoE but fatal circle is gone, would that make you feel equally satisfied? >> No. No. And the reason why is because I would burst strike anyway. But it's the choice that it's it's like it's it's the choice that is important because you don't you don't normally do it. So, but I don't think but so I guess the the more I'm thinking about it now, it's this is a very specific situation that has literally only occurred like once in the past like like six years, you know. So, >> oh, they say J finish. Yeah. So, I guess what I'm saying is is is the reason is that I'm kind of looking at this through like rose tinted glasses a little bit because my last experience with with um optimizing AoE was based on one of my best. So, because of that um I [music] don't think that that's a fair comparison to make as like a general rule. So, so now that I'm thinking about >> the thing, right, Zo? >> Huh? >> Here's the thing, right? AoE, right? I I think I I think you agree not agree I also agree that fatal circle become AOE I'm sorry burst strike become AoE versus still using fated circle it's just pressing which different button right for me right the most important thing if they want to change AOE they need to take this chance to think about how the AoE is done I like AoE around myself I like fated circle but if you were to make burst strike AoE and the burst strike is AoE off my target. [ __ ] that. Does that make sense? >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's another reason. Yeah. So, that's another reason why I like feta circle. >> Yeah. >> Yes. So, if they want to change to like, you know, they want to make all this single target or or or ability AoE, they need to make sure that the AoE have to be different. Cone, I don't mind cone. At least cone I have control. AoE around me. I got control but I absolutely hit AoE center around target. >> Yeah. So I guess >> so that is more important like if you want to choose this ability to become AoE >> but it's central around and the boss is big. I cannot hit the small ones beside that I will [ __ ] rage you know. >> Yeah. >> I thought uh I thought your example was good by the way of what you like I think that's fair thing to enjoy. I don't think it's like >> like >> oh the Yeah. >> Yeah. I thought I thought it was a good example, but it's just the thing is that like in the new system, instead of like the focal point being deciding between or instead of the focal point being deciding when to use the single target versus the AoE button, the focal point would be more similar to like timing your bow shock to like try to hit as many two target hits as that kind of thing. >> Yeah. So, um, no, I I think no, like the more I think about it, the more we talk about it, I actually think this is going to be better because it's a similar like there's still a line of thinking there. It's not just brain dead. Like you you're obviously you're going to wait for the ads to group up and then you're going to burst, which is the same as like, okay, well, I'm going to single target until they're all grouped and I'm going to hit my AOG GCD. It's it's it's a very similar line of thinking, but I think the reason why that I was so focused on the actual GCD was because uh of how specific and unique Gunbreaker is in M10 because it's the only tank that can do it's it's the only tank that can have a gain on two, but also the AoE generate from you, not from the target. So like when the you know how the bosses are separated, right? And they're ju they're separated by just enough to where you can't [ __ ] cleave, right? Well, the gunreaker can cleave. >> Yeah. >> So, that line of thinking is [ __ ] awesome. Like, that level of optimization is [ __ ] awesome. And like I said, it was one of the best like double target optimization that the game's ever had for Gunreakers specifically in my opinion. So, that's why I was so like focused on the actual GCD. But but the more that we're talking about it that you can't apply that that specific thing to the to the [ __ ] game cuz like I said only happened like once in like six years or some [ __ ] So >> I will say that this like new version of AoE is not necessarily all upsides either, right? It's going to uh it's going to feel really really bad if you don't have any cool downs up and you're just standing there single targeting a mob like an [ __ ] >> Yeah. Mhm. >> And uh also like I forgot the second thing I was going to say to be honest, >> but yeah, it's >> it's not necessarily all upside. >> Pack two is going to be miserable. >> When you completely decimate the first trash pack and you have nothing for the second, that's going to be miserable. That's going to be >> that's going to feel really really bad. >> Yeah, that's going to be like a bunch of that's going to be trust combat right there. >> Oh, I remember the second thing I was going to say. I think this like it's also like huge huge benefits to like the keybind thing also cuz a lot of keybinds are eaten up by AoE versions of >> Yeah. >> abilities. >> Yeah. I think it's really annoying. Like samurai has too many AoE buttons. Reaper has too many AoE buttons. There's There's This will This will be better. This will be better. I'm I'm convinced this will be like way better, I think, for the game. >> Okay. What about auto attacks? >> I don't know. I I think that I I think that auto attacks should be in the game. I think that your like connection to the boss should be a part of like if they remove auto attacks then I know this is going to sound weird but they're also removing like some of the skill too because there's a like people don't realize how important auto attacks are and people don't realize how many auto attacks that you can miss if you're just not simply close to the boss. And I know that sounds really like that sounds like, oh, just stand next to the boss forehead. But there's a lot of people that actually don't do that. And I just think that auto attacks are important. I think that standing next to the boss, keeping up time should be a part of your damage. I think, but I don't know. Maybe I'm Yeah, maybe I'm crazy. I don't know. But I think that auto attack should be should be in the game. >> What you're saying makes sense, but like personally, I just couldn't I just I just I just can't care. I just don't care at all. [laughter] It's like such an invisible part of the game that I that like uh I don't know. I think I think it's fine either way. I'm fine if they're there or not. I I mean what you're saying makes sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think >> it's important, bro. It's very important in Heaven's World. Auto attack is extremely important because you have to face the boss and people have to make macro where you're always facing the boss and people have to start playing stra >> like in World of Warcraft, you I remember running a I remember in Heaven's Word, every melee player would have like a macro or something on their keyboard that would press the face target key every frame so that you could walk backwards and still face the boss. >> N you just you just you change your keybinds and you do it automatically. >> It's like is this >> I mean I mean and you look at past right auto attack damage is actually pretty high you know but now they >> auto attack damage is a huge chunk of your overall damage. That's why I think it's very important. And >> like what like um if you're not close to the boss, you don't you don't get it like you don't auto attack. >> Mhm. So like is removing auto attack like do you think the community will look at it as like a big thing, you know? Like I'm with N here. Like if they balance the fight, if we don't auto attack, honestly, I don't really care. But the thing is some people do. I mean that's why we have this conversation, right? Some people really do like I mean like I don't think it's going to ruin the game or anything but I I I just think it >> but what about what about cast what about book the book smacks? >> No, those don't matter. I mean not really >> I mean I get the appeal. It's like a very classical part of like MMOs, right? Like like it's it's a very like RPG part of your character like your auto attacks, right? like it's it's very like it's uh it's not easy to like enjoy like I don't change or anything. >> I think I just think it's like a it's just a a the times are different kind of thing I guess to me. >> Yeah. Like I think Okay. I think the reason why that it bothers me a little bit is because it's just one more thing that they're removing. >> Like it's one more. So like you know what? It's not even the auto attack itself really. It's just the fact that, okay, well, if there's this pointless thing that a lot of people don't even realize, but they're removing it, but it impacts your damage and it has to do with uptime. That's just one more little thing that they're removing. Like, I don't know. It just it kind of bothers me, but like I said, it's like I don't think it's going to be the end of the world. I just >> That's fair. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Mhm. >> I just think it kind of bothers me a little bit, but I don't think it's the end of the world. But >> I mean I personally like it because whenever I have to go out and prep a sweeton and I play safe and kamayachi or I play safe and go out and I'm quite fury right people is always like oh you should have stayed closest you can because of auto attacks and I'm like bro >> oh yeah yeah yeah and I mean I guess actually good you know I like it >> they could have just turned it off too I mean we don't know right they could have just turned it off but >> yeah there's a very real chance that auto attacks just weren't on the dev gold at the Yeah. Yeah, cuz this is like Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, evolve mode. >> But also, you don't auto attack in PVP. And this is the PvP guy, so >> Oh, >> yeah. I guess. Yeah. No, no, no, you don't. >> You don't auto attack in PVP. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Evolved mode. >> Not having too much variant. Yeah. I >> feel like we spent all day talking about evolved mode and we should probably talk more about reborn mode than evolved mode. [laughter] >> I mean, evolve mode is mainly I mean, I guess the 2 minutes meta include the evolve mode, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same death panel. Yeah, I guess. >> Yeah, >> I don't even know what that Gazo was. >> Oh god. >> So, in case anyone wasn't aware, >> the the whole point of the reborn mode versus evolved mode >> is the reborn mode is essentially what they're keeping in the game to prevent changing the game too much on people who are like used to the game as it is now, you know? And the evolved mode is like the new reworks that are >> essentially what they're intending for people to eventually switch to because they made off-handed comments about how the evolved mode was going to be a little better. Even though that that's certainly not going to be the case for every >> Oh, yeah. They were like kind of cocky about it a little bit >> like like Nas, right? >> I think this reborn mode is just it's gone. Like it's here but it's gone. >> Yeah, >> they are never going to balance reborn. If they will, they will just balance it to be closer to evolve. I think their philosophy is evolve mode will just always moving forward could be better. And if it's not, if the players find a way to maybe optimize reborn mode to be better than evolve, they will first hand immediately buff evolve. Like they will never allow evolve to be lower than reborn. Reborn is no longer a thought. Evolve is the future. You just got to at some point pick in this expansion in 8.0 when to get on the new bandwagon. Eventually, you're going to have to use a vault. Eventually. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, >> the I think there's going to be problems in terms of >> could be a lot of >> the fact especially for healers. >> Mhm. >> Where, for example, the the new versions of the healers have less cool downs, but they're like on shorter cool downs or whatever, right? But the thing is that having more cool downs on longer cooldowns does allow you to stack things in a different way that you just can't do on the new mode like inherently because of the differences in like the number of cooldowns, right? And I think at some point that is going to be a thing. I'm sure there's going to be some boss fight where like the cooldown spread is better on the reborn mode than the evolved mode. I I can only imagine this being really a problem for healers because you know for DPS they can just make evolve mode do more DPS and that's it. >> Well tanks I mean Paladin didn't change so it's hard to say without >> without seeing the other ones but >> yeah they took away bullwark but >> all they did was take away bullwark but that doesn't matter enough I think. >> Yeah but you get um you actually get more sheltron I'm pretty sure now so it like kind of makes up for it. >> Yeah. So, I'm guessing that's mostly going to be a problem for healers and also probably on expansion launch there are going to be some reborn modes that do more DPS probably just because they're not going to get all of them right on the first all 23 of them right on the first try, right? So, >> Bullwark's not a part of the counter. No. So to say you I mean you don't you'll never have to use reborn mode, but I imagine at some point there's mostly on healers there's probably going to be some situation where reborn mode allows you to do something that you can't do otherwise. I'm just predicting it now. >> What about you, fat [ __ ] >> Sorry, man. I got my mouth full of meat. Something that uh we that me and Zeno talked about the other day was um you know it seems clear that reborn mode is kind of a like band-aid that they're intended that they're probably going to remove in the future because it seems clear evolved mode is like what they want to turn the game into. But the fact that there is a system in place in the game for two different versions kind of like opens the door for the fact that they have just introduced a framework into the game for specs. >> And even if that's not really the direction they're going now, like there is a framework in the game for like in the future, maybe one or two expansions from now where like the door is kind of open now for specs to be a thing that exists, right? >> I really hope they systems are in the game. >> I hope they do. Yeah. Oh man, it will be so sick, dude. It would be so sick. >> So, like that's not really relevant for now, but like something a lot of people haven't thought about is the fact that of of like what kind of doors this opens in the game's design. >> I'm kind of excited for that in the future. >> Yeah. So, that's what I'll say. >> A lot a lot of people a lot of people look at it in like face value like they just think it's getting easier. They just think that too much is being removed. But you you need to think what do you want them to do? You want them to remove like what they do for reborn? You want them to remove two, add two, remove three, add three? No. Right. You might as well take this opportunity. Start with the killing state, hot bar being consolidated, buttons being multi, leave more room in the hot bar for more things moving forward rather than take away two at two, right? And then now you can like also do like you got you got two modes. Technically speaking, we are already getting code and code like two specs already now. But you know, they are still the same role. But you know, in the future, they can Yeah, maybe you can have your main tank off tank. can have all your healers doing both shield barrier heal, you know, maybe DPS can be support melee, you know, DPS, melee. Yeah. So, like one thing I was talking about earlier, right, was you could have a main tank and off tank spec or you could just throw throw all that out the window and you could just go tank spec, DPS spec or you could have like um okay, you guys know um uh they could even do this like they could even do some lore [ __ ] where you guys remember uh [ __ ] what's his name from Final Fantasy 6? Um Edgar, he's a he's a king, right? Well, he will he like has like a bunch of different gadgets and like machinery and [ __ ] He's got like a drill and a [ __ ] chainsaw. Well, what if you have like one spec for machinist where you could have like range machinist like how it is now. Then the other spec is like a melee machinist and one of your main [ __ ] sources of damage is a chainsaw. I think that'd be so [ __ ] badass, man. You could do that for like other [ __ ] too. >> I mean, >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like I just think it would be interesting, right? I just think it would be interesting. It would definitely add >> more like more more thinking forward, you know, rather than keep looking back every you know, think look forward. Yeah, >> it's just uh it's just fun to like it's just fun to think about the fact that they have just introduced a system for multiple for like multiple specs to exist. Even if that's not really what they're using it for now, like it's totally possible they could in the future, which is like exciting to think about. >> Mhm. >> You guys, >> do you guys agree? Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, two minute meta. But real quick, do you guys agree that reborn mode is done at 9.0? >> Yes, >> most likely. Yeah. >> Yeah. If they get it right, if they get it right, if they [ __ ] Okay. Okay. What about the possible situation of they [ __ ] up evolve mode? Do you think that they will just try to make evolve better or do you think that in the future they will just like, okay, we keep reborn and then we think of something else? You think which is more likely? >> No. Evolved mode is definitely staying. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. There's no way that right. >> It's just way easier to maintain also. >> Mhm. >> Easier to balance boss fight also. >> Yeah. >> No, no rate buffs. Everybody is working on a DPS. I think it's easier to balance. Easy to balance boss fight. Oh, also Kyoshi P say right patch cycle might be shorter and one of the main reason why patch patch cycle become longer is because of the job balance, right? So now if they can find a way to make job balance easier, you know, happier for all of us. Yeah, that's the >> Yeah, I'll [ __ ] believe that when I see it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At the end of the day. Yeah. >> That's definitely a Okay, we'll believe that. Yeah. Just like when the CEO came out and he was like, "Hey, you guys got more budget now." Yeah, [ __ ] right. I'll believe that [clears throat] [ __ ] when I see it. >> We kind of already talked about everything about two-minute meta already previously, but >> yeah, I think while talking about the tree job uh rose, we talk about a lot of evol. Yeah, it's just that. >> Yeah, I mean my my sentiment, [ __ ] the 2-minut cycle. I'm not saying it's bad. I enjoyed it. I'm not saying that it cannot be better, but I'm just so [ __ ] sick of it. I would take any new [ __ ] Even if it's, you know, the first iteration is bad and then they can improve. And this new system does seem that going to be a blank state, we will see more improvement. If not now, definitely later. So, yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm in. I'm in for this. >> I am all in for this [ __ ] man. I can't wait. During this portion is actually when they said the single most exciting thing that I heard them say. That was them like acknowledging. You see on the bottom there, it's them talking about how the bosses have periods where they don't do anything. I'm so happy to hear them say that because I I'm so excited for them to make bosses more exciting. It's all I need is I just need horses in my expert roulette to do something >> that like that like really gives me like I guess hope or whatever that because they said that there's going to be a lot more RNG in the fights. >> I hope so. >> Basically that downtime is now going to be filled with like [ __ ] I don't know. >> Oh, I just talked about my favorite thing they said. Can I talk about my least favorite thing they said? We're going to have to go back to white mage. [laughter] >> Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. It just it I just remembered I forgot to mention it earlier. You remember when they were talking about how they were like, "Oh, we know people are saying it's monotonous when you press glare over and over." >> Yeah. >> So, we added a second version of glare. >> Yep. >> And it's just glare and then it's just a different animation and it does exactly the same damage and does the exact same thing. That was the most out of touch thing I like I've ever heard. That's crazy. >> That was a huge thing that is different. You know, how did >> that was a huge blow to the to the confidence. I'm not going to lie. That was that was bad. >> See, it's because of things like that that I have no faith. You know what I mean? It's because of things like that. >> Yeah, it was it was uh it was bad. That >> this is >> that was really bad. This is like completely [ __ ] off topic, but I just remembered something that that like this this idea I had like a long time ago, man. Is that okay, so you know when a Dark Knight pops Living Dead, right? And they're and they're they're they're dying, right? I think that if the healer doesn't heal the Dark Knight, that debuff should go onto the healer at 1 second. I know that's really random, but I just now thought of it. >> Like, I know it's really random, but but you talking about that reminded me of it. But anyway, yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. [laughter] So, >> we just talking about how a bard can kill you. When we just talking about how a bard could kill you with sprint, I don't want a dark knight pvping me with his living done. >> Yeah. Anyway, that just came to mind just now when I thought about my favorite thing they said. And then I immediately thought about the least favorite thing they said and that was it. the the second glare animation. So that pressing glare for 60 seconds straight is more exciting. Do you think just just like I'm not very critical often, but that was just so completely out of touch. >> Oh yeah. So evolve mode is going to be the way they're probably going to get rid of reborn in um what 9.0 or whatever. >> Yeah, I think 9.0. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully hopefully they do specs. I would really like specs. I think it would be awesome because I think it would be cool and this is like one of the only games you can't [ __ ] do this in which which is so stupid. You cannot queue up for multiple roles which I think is ridiculous. Like how the [ __ ] in the game where you're supposed to be able to play everything. You can't queue up for multiple roles. How in the [ __ ] does that make any sense? >> Just spaghetti code. Maybe they don't know how to like, okay, this guy queue this. Okay, now this queue dictates that we need you to sign up for it. can you please change to that? You know, they probably >> If I had to pick one thing in particular, it's probably because they might not have a way to like specifically link a gear set to what you're queuing for for minimum item level requirements. >> Yeah, maybe. >> Yeah. Spaghetti coding. >> If I had to pick one thing. >> Yeah. Crazy. >> Hey, in the in the new expansion, you get you can have the same eye level on all your jobs. >> Oh, that's another thing. >> Remember this? Yeah, >> actually, you know what? Yo, are we going to talk about miss stuff now? >> Yeah, I think so. I think that's where we're at. Can't find the gear thing. >> Okay, so I'm going to say this now. The gear thing is cool, but the materia is still obnoxious. What they should do is just have it to where you meld materia. Like, well, I mean, I I think they should take material out of the [ __ ] game and just replace it with a better system or something, man, because materia is [ __ ] stupid. But another reason why I want them to remove materia is because that way they can't give it to us as a reward. They actually have to try to give us something. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I was just thinking about that. Yeah. >> So that's actually the main reason why I want it out of the game. I think that you should be able to meld materia to not your gear but your soul stone, right? Because some some some jobs don't want the same melds. So like being able to melt like yes, it would require more melds, right? Because you're melding your soul stone, not your actual like gear. But it would give your soul stone like more of a purpose, but also it would make your your uh each job like more customizable and less obnoxious to have to like settle with like I mean this is I think this is a better solution than gear sets honestly but or sorry loadouts like material loadouts but >> so >> I mean there's a lot of things that can improve but just the fact that even if you just give us a system where okay we will just give you primary stats, vitality, and then the two sub stats that it come with this gear or weapon or item and then you just don't get material, but you can, you know, use that to sync to your other job and play. I think that's already pretty good enough because I I think their philosophy is they want you let you be able to play but not get one gear and done with the game, right? Because they still want you to go and you know, if you really want, you should go and farm the gear. You should also look at the uh your material, you know, if because if you sync down or you sync up uh the gear from other other job, you don't get the material stats. So, if you still want to minmax, you should do it. This is more so of you can try, you can help people, right? So, >> can it be improved? Absolutely. Like, like you say, the material obviously, but I just think that it's just a very good queue. Well, that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not too greedy. I think this is >> also that there's useless stats in the game. Like I've always thought direct hit was [ __ ] useless and like piety shouldn't even be a [ __ ] stat you can melt. It should just be on all the healer gear like naturally. Like >> but the rest be just [ __ ] >> I think skill speed and and spell speed should be merged into haste. >> Skill speed and spell speed being two different stats is completely pointless. Yeah, >> I just don't like it, man. But um >> yeah, >> I'm not I'm hoping they change somehow how syncing works with all these low-level changes and this and being a system. But if syncing your if syncing works the same way, it's going to be pretty annoying in this way because having no material on all of your gear is like not a not a negligible downside. Like that's >> Mhm. It's going to make this closer to like it's going to be closer to like 10 eye levels lower gear. >> Well, only barely, honestly. Like I I honestly think it level 790 set with no material versus like a 770 set with like full pentamelds is like not as far apart as you would want it to be. Probably. >> You think it's that much? M I think a 790 set with no material is probably closer to like 785 and a 770 set with full pentameld is like pretty close to 780 minus the weapons. >> I think the reason they did this is because they didn't know how to make the material better. Like >> I think I think if you buy if you like buy full pentamelded crafted gear on all your on all your characters uh at the start of a tier >> Mhm. >> you probably won't get that much use out of this to be honest. That's kind of how my prediction. It just like materia makes the game more complicated and obnoxious than it than it helps. Like no one is excited. Yeah. Like no one is excited to optimize the materia. Like you know you you just go crit and then either debt or direct hit. That's [ __ ] it, man. Like in a vast majority of cases. Yeah. Sure. Sometimes spell speed, maybe a little bit of skill speed maybe. But the point is is that it's it's like it's virtually the same almost all the time. Is that >> actually uh I saw someone in chat say they should make material worked while you're synced. That would be way worse in this in for the system because then the optimal thing to do for this system would be to uh gear not your main job so that your main job could get synced up in gear with better sub stats that's lower eye level. Like that the sync has to be bad inherently otherwise the solution would be to gear not your main job. So you can sync up your main job with like older gear that has be perfect sub stats synced up, right? Cuz if that is as good as the base gear, then that means gearing your main job is actually throwing, which is like really strange. A >> it's just a Q. These just [ __ ] >> I mean, >> it's not for optimizing. >> It's like a good start. I think it's a good start. It's just I don't think this is going to solve like all the gearing issues is all. >> Oh, no. Of course not. We still need to go and get our proper gear. For sure, 100%. It just is really not like this system is just very nice for maybe the first few weeks. >> Yeah. >> You know, once like before you lock in, you still trying experimenting, help your friends, you know, help your wife, fuel in, you know, because bro, if you for example, right, yo, artists, can you come and fuel in for a tank? Bro, I don't have tank gear. Oh, here you go. Here's a full set of pentame, bro. Leave my armory alone, man. >> Yeah. I [laughter] mean, let me just use my ninja gear and I'm just going to go in on the tank and help you. Yeah, cool. >> Well, the thing is that um unless they majorly change how gear works some other way, which is also possible if they're doing all these changes with like how like they're doing all these changes on how you gear up. Like it's totally possible the gearing system is just completely different and we just haven't heard enough about it. But >> yeah, they if it >> this is the only thing I've heard >> if it's not majorly different, this system is like only when you're at like at least item level 780 plus is this even going to be a benefit over crafted gear. Like if you're 770 and you're syncing up another job to 770, like you know, crafted gear eye level for like week one or week two savage or whatever, your character is going to be hella weak. I am fully convinced that they have no idea how material works >> because when I was at the Okay, you remember the last media tour went we went to Arthurs and we got to ask our questions. >> Uhhuh. I asked I I asked the question on I I said I tried to explain to them, okay, well, materia is confusing for when you level sync because a lot of people they don't realize that it's better to use the gear of the current item level because your materia doesn't count. They had no [ __ ] clue what I was talking about. They had to they they came back and asked me like three or four times to reward my question and explain better. remember that. >> So, I'm I'm I'm confident that not even they understand how bad material is and how bad it is in the system. They just literally don't know. So, I think that that that they think that this is a solution that this is going to fix everything, but it's not. Like, I mean, they didn't say that this is a solution. I think I think you guys are thinking too much into it. This is just a a convenience system because he did say if you really want to minmax your job, you should farm the correct gear so that you can have material in it. Which is why we knew that this system is not going to come with synced up material. Like it just >> primary stats set. >> Yeah, he did say that. Like he did say that this is not the way you should be playing your job. You should still go out and farm your gear, optimize it, and put the right material in your gear. Yeah, >> I see. They just seems >> mainly for fun, for helping friends, for able to test another job. That's it. >> The only Well, that's the problem I have with it is there going to be a large period of time where it's not even useful for that because like it's it's only going to be useful if you just don't feel like buying crafted gear kind of. So, >> yeah. Yeah. >> For like a large period of time. >> The only I don't know how you guys I don't know how you guys approach this type of gearing, right? Like when I have to be like, "Oh man, I want to try Reaper." Buying crafted gear to take up my space, spend the money, and then melt. Especially like at the beginning of a savage rate here. I'm just like, "Bro, no." I It takes so much time. >> If it's just for like roulettes or whatever, it's fine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. If you want to do savage, you're still going to have to buy crafted gear. >> Yeah. But at least now Oh, man. You know what's going to piss people off is when you join a party. And this was actually going to be a benefit. What I was going to say was now with this system, you know how those some of those [ __ ] really stupid people will put like the first turn is like close to the maximum item level you can possibly get, right? And it's like, bro, you don't need this [ __ ] high, man. What are you doing? Well, now you can get around that because now your your [ __ ] your [ __ ] geared character is now the correct item mobile. >> Let's go. >> Yeah. So I can't lock you out a PF. >> You know what I mean? >> I don't know. this I just think I'm just a little if you're like someone who just buys crafted gear for your for your characters at the start of a raid tier, this is like going to be only marginally useful. That's that's that's all. >> Yeah, >> I kind of I kind of just wish there was a better solution or if like if like honestly there's I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way, but there's almost no point in gear even having stats on it anymore at this point. Like I >> if they literally just said your gear your your your gear is just the item level. It's like ion two or your item level just boosts your power directly. I wouldn't even care. >> Like I'd be like, "Okay, that's fine. I already don't give a shit." [laughter] >> But yeah, I don't know. >> You know, >> gearing is just such a like disappointment in this game right now that like I can only find myself to barely care about this. >> So meaningless. Yeah. >> But on a positive note, what about those animations though? Yo, which by the way, all you [ __ ] can thank me for doing that. I expect like a bouquet of [ __ ] roses, bro. Man, not only am I streaming with titty and ass mods, so you're welcome for that. But not only am I streaming with that, but I [ __ ] made a video and I sent it to a certain birdie and he told me that he would get it to the team. And well, would you look at that? Looks like he got it to the [ __ ] team because now we're getting animations. So you [ __ ] are welcome. >> Thank you. >> Anyway, when I saw that, I was really excited. I was very, very excited. >> I mean, for those people that haven't opened Pandora box, I think it's pretty exciting. But for those people that already knew this thing existed for maybe half a decade, yeah, it's nice to see that, you know, >> they finally acknowledge that this is important part of the game. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it is it is it is >> because now like now this opens the door, right? So now I'm going to be able to like switch my stance on Dark Knight >> so I don't run like a [ __ ] idiot >> and they can earn money while at it, right? The CEO is going to be happy. Oh god, we got more budget, you know? And then Yoshi P maybe will be more happy because maybe the CEO will actually mean that the budget goes to him and make Final Fantasy 14 better again, right? So yeah, >> I hope they sell >> for everyone. I hope they sell like like [clears throat] workout pants or like stretch pants with the fattest juiciest ass. And I hope they sell that [ __ ] for like $20 on the Mog Station. And I hope it's account or I mean uh character only. They're going to make a killing. >> First, we need the ass first. First, we need the ass first. >> Well, no. It's going to come with the ass. It's going to come with the ass. Man's going to be the only one that has an ass like that. >> Wait, I zoned out for like 10 seconds and just zoned back into Who's coming to the ass? What's going on [laughter] >> now? We're talking about but he's talking about, you know, animation change. Maybe there will be outfit that will have a big ass that comes with it. >> Oh, uh I mean, yeah, honestly, it sounds like it sounds like that's something that they were made painfully aware of with all the Q&A questions. >> Yeah. N they're going to do it now. Like they have to they have to they must. >> Man, they're >> I just wonder when we get the Evangelion. I mean, we clearly going to get a black suit, right? I just wonder whether they can make it when the Evangelion uh crossover come over and then we get the pluck suit. Will the ass be there really? You know, >> no, probably not. >> Oh no, the 2B ass was there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, they were. >> I don't even know about him and Jellian or whatever it's called. I don't even know about it. >> You have any uh do you have any opinions about this? >> Oh, yeah. I think all that is cool, man. I'm a big fan of the battle pass, actually. I think it's awesome. But like I'm hesitant to call it a battle pass. I think it's more like a reward pass because like >> I think this screen is a little more uh solid information and they've said this is basically a direct replacement for tombstones. >> So basically like I think what's going on here is uh tombstones are like their solution to like something you need to cap every week and they want you to be able to do that with any content in the game. They just want you to play the game every week, right? That's like the intention of tombstones essentially. >> But the problem is that because tombstones just drop from everything, >> like what they want to happen is they want you to just play like everything in the game and capture tombstones that way. But what people are actually doing is they're just doing one singular thing to capture tombstones. And this is, I think, just their solution to essentially have the exact same system as tombstones, except they're actually going to force you to do more than one thing. >> Yeah. >> I mean, you can still do repeated things. It might just not be as optimal, right? But the thing is, like you said earlier, >> well, these have like they have limited amounts you can do these. >> Yeah. Yeah. That you can repeat. No, no, you can repeat. There's you some of these can be repeatable. >> Oh. >> Mhm. Like >> if it's repeatable, then I don't see the point of this. It's just like like this is not going to change anything. This is just going to this just give you option and also maybe conveniency you know you walk bus this you do this oh wow I get a few toms cool but otherwise for people who just want to be like you know in town in their house and like just kept the to lock in 15 minutes they will just still choose the simplest form right you know run the dungeon >> a lot of this stuff is like already stuff that dropped tomes before it's just they're just making tomes drop from slightly more stuff now I guess. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. >> So, basically this is okay. If these are repeatable then this is basically nothing. It's just don't >> Yeah, but the weekly man is instead of the daily. The weekly is so important. >> Okay. That was that was a second really that was a second out of touch thing that they said like I was streaming the keynote live >> and the whole time they started going on that rant about no more dailies and the whole time I'm like head in my hands. I'm like but this game doesn't have dailies. Do you mean the roulette? Because the roulette are the weekly tapped capped tombstones. This game doesn't even have dailies. [laughter] >> What do you mean? >> We still get 450 toes, bro. I thought after all the facade they will be like, >> "Oh, either it's race or differently." Then and then when they say, "Oh, there's still 450 except you don't have to do it one week. You can back lock one week." I'm like, "Bro, it's the same." >> Okay, that's nice. But >> that's that's nice. I'll take whatever. You can get Yeah, you can get [ __ ] for like three weeks week or whatever. Yeah, >> I feel like it should be at least a mando. And then when I say this right, a lot of people in chat is probably going to be like, "Oh, but I don't want to do 4 months worth of tome." No, you don't have to. It's just that you got one month of backlogging that you can do if you choose to. If you just want to do 900, then do 900. If they give you two weeks, one month worth 180. It's not saying that, you know, they're putting a gun on your head and say, "Do now welcome to the game now get 180." No. Right. You can just you can still get 450. You can still just get 450 and then you will always just, you know, not missing out anymore. If you're a new player, come in mid expansion, you know. I mean, two weeks is better than >> Mhm. >> nothing, but I feel like it should at least >> I wish they would have just done a straight up rolling cap the same way that other MMOs do it where >> like wow. Like straight season cap that also works, you know, but out of all these options. >> Oh, you mean a cap for the entire >> Yeah. So, the way it works in World of Warcraft, let's let me put it in like tombstone terms. Uh so for example, week one of the new tier it would be, you know, you would have zero out of 450 tomes. You can cap your tomes for 450 for the week, right? >> The next week the basically that cap would not be a weekly cap at all and it would just be a straightup cap. The week after that, the cap would be 900. The week after that, the cap would be 1350. The week after that, the cap would be 1,800. They should have done that. And there would be no time aspect at all, which means if you come in late, you you have the chance to catch all the way up if you just want to grind it out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You don't have to. The key word is you don't have to. But a lot of players are thinking that >> if they do that, they have to, which is like, >> holy [ __ ] that would be really good. Yeah, that'd be the best. >> The purpose of the system. The system is to let you the system >> just to catch up, you know. >> Yeah. Don't want you to miss, not forcing you to grind, you know. So, I think they should have at least done one month at least. >> Damn. Hopefully they do that. That sounds Yeah, I didn't know they had that in a while. >> I mean 900. I mean again, right, it's a start, right? They they now know they like N says earlier with the evolve now they they have this system or this coding in place that they can like, okay, we can let people do up to 900. Next time just flip the switch, you know, 1,8 or just flip the switch additive per week, you know. So the system is there >> next time they have the option, you know. >> I don't know what they're like. I don't know why they were so hardressed for 450 a week for so long. >> Yeah, I know. >> That is insane. That's you know it used to be 300. >> I I actually genuinely >> I genuinely have a question to you guys about this. I was like they make they made such a big deal out of the daily thing. Uh like what dailies are there even in the game? There's roulettes which I think talking about roulette. Uh there's roulettes which barely count because the it's because your to zones that matter are weekly capped already. Uh there's beast tribes and maybe like grand company crafting turnins once a day I think. >> Uh what else is in the game that's daily [laughter] even >> plants bills if people care >> it's so little. It's just so little that I wouldn't like call it daily. You know what I mean? >> Like you say earlier it's like okay that is not something when you say it rings a bell, you know? It's just like >> it's just roulettes basically, right? Just roulette. Literally roulette. >> Like, but the reason why I was so happy was cuz you could get like uh they said you could go back a week. I really like that. >> Yeah. Just one week. >> It's like the week base. >> It's okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's good. >> So, Especially week one. Too busy. >> Do you have any opinions on this screen in particular? My opinion on this is that it seems like it's so unfinished. This is all essentially just nonsense. >> This feels like the uh 1.0 the old UI that they show you and end up is completely not what it looks like. >> Oh, >> this this part on the bottom is like it seems like it's so in early development. I don't think they even know what they're doing this with this part on the bottom specifically yet. >> Yeah, >> like me. I mean, I thought it was kind of cool. I mean, I didn't really It kind of reminded me of like a single player game almost, but >> mobile it reminds me of like a mobile UI. >> That's what a lot of people are talking about. That's why a lot of people are very worried, but they are sure, right? >> But like, all right, so here's the thing. Is this supposed to replace when you hit C when you pull up your character sheet? >> Maybe. Maybe. >> Because if it's supposed to replace that, I don't know if I like it because I don't >> something to that effect. >> Like I don't want to have to go to a screen just to look at my gear. I just want to bring that [ __ ] up. >> I think they said it was a new menu so maybe the old menu will stay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, like I have I can't even begin to like come up with an idea with what this is, how this is supposed to >> integrate if you were imagining that there was what would you imagine were here instead of these dreadworm totems like gear pieces directly dropping maybe? Or would it be a token that you turn in for a stone piece or >> like [laughter] look at this like it's it's kind of hard to even conceptualize like where you would even look like figure out what this is supposed to be. This blue one. >> Yeah, >> that's a etherite. A mini etherite. >> Oh, >> these are all just like uh sprites like ripped out of the game. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like randomly. But >> my bad joke. >> Yeah. It's hard to even like conceptualize what this like progression system is even like supposed to begin to look like. I don't know if maybe one of you has a better idea of like a better like theory craft on this. Absolutely nothing. >> I like the I Okay, so I really like the free rewards you get. And the reason why I like it is because it has the potential of horizontal progression. So let's say you get so many achievement points or whatever the [ __ ] it is in the season. Well, eventually like let's just say the cap is 3,000. Well, when you're around like 2,2200, they could just throw in some horizontal gear in there. [music] So they could throw in like some some gear that's equivalent to the raid because it's like later in the system, right? So in or later in the season. So instead of like putting the drops in the dungeons, they're putting it in the achievement thing, which which I think is going to be a lot easier for them to do. >> So you're saying so don't for So remember this is directly replacing tombstones, weekly tombstones. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So you're saying instead of buying something for tombstones, you it would just drop directly from here instead. >> Yeah. So like Okay. Okay. Okay. So, so like for example, um, all right, so let's say that we're 2 months into a raid tier. Okay, so we're two months into a raid tier. So that means that we're like halfway through the season roughly. Um, so at on the ninth week, right, they could throw in raid gear for like 2500 achievement points. So [music] that means that the people that have been doing the raid tier have been playing throughout the entire raid tier, they're going to have those achievement points. So, they're going to get more raid gear for horizontal progression on either their main character or their alt. So, I'm not saying that's what they're going to do, but I'm saying that that that there's a chance that they could because they said that they're going to give you gear in here. Now, that gear might be ray gear or it might be like [ __ ] gear, but [clears throat] they don't have to design new content to give you that gear. So, it's easier on them to give you the gear, if that makes any sense. >> Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So like you wouldn't even have access to that gear until you had around like you know 22 2300 achievement or like >> it's like a it's like a simpler I guess I guess it's the same thing as tombstones where it's just a way to just hard hard time lock you on on gear. >> Yeah. So because if you think about it around week nine maybe week nine maybe 12 like somewhere in there right somewhere between two and 3 months that's when the raid tier should be unlocked. Well they're probably not going to do that. So, what's the alternative? The alternative is to give you the gear from the raid or [music] at least a little bit of it. So, they could give you that gear through the system and you would only have those achievement points because you've [music] been playing since the beginning of the season. So, it's not like a new person could just log on and get the gear. They would have to like build up the points. >> Makes sense. Yeah, I could see that being a thing. Like it they could use it as like a way to just start juicing your gear acquisition rate like later on. >> Yes. Without actually introducing any new content. Yeah, that makes sense. >> Which is what which is what people want anyway because around that time around week, you know, 9 through 12 or whatever, you're done gearing your main character, you know, you you you know, like you're you're done gearing your main character, so you want to play like other jobs and [ __ ] So that is like the perfect time for them to give you that gear. >> Yeah, that makes sense. That's a good that's a good theory craft. It was better than I what I had. I couldn't even come up with anything. >> Oh, so like I really like that. Now, are they going to do that? I I have no idea. But like on one of their on one of one of those there's like a book there. Uh on another there's a mount. Uh maybe those totems if you get x amount of totems you could turn it in for um raid gear. There's that too. So you can plan that out. >> Basically they could put in anything in there. They could put like a they could put a [ __ ] emote. They could put an animation. They could put a mount. They could put whatever the [ __ ] they want in there. So >> yeah, this part on the bottom is supposed to be like casual content type stuff. Yeah. It's literally This one's literally labeled gear and the one on the bottom's >> like other stuff. >> Yeah. >> And these are all just guesses though in case it wasn't clear to anyone. This is just best guesses. Uh like obviously they're basically changing. They also said very mysteriously that they're like, "Oh, we're going to add new ways or different system for getting savage gear or whatever." >> They're they're very mysterious about this. It's It's like they're change they're seriously changing changing some [ __ ] with gear and there's no way to predict it at this point without more information. So >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't even know if they know what they're doing. >> I don't think they know. >> Trying to think. Were there any other more quality of life up there? >> Great man. That meet here. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be interesting, right? It's going to be interesting because how is Savage going to be released? >> You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Like normal mode has always been week zero and then Savage is now like what? Week two, right? >> Yes. So, >> it's supposed to it's still supposed to be one week after. It's just this most recent one was uh an exception. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But but either way, where is this mid tier going to be? Are they going to release it together with Savage? Are they going to release it prior to Savage? Like there's so many problems or Yeah, there's so many like there's so many things to for me to think about that >> could just go wrong, you know? Like >> yo yo, here yo, here's another thing, too. Is the savage going to be balanced around getting gear from the mid tier? So like during savage progue, are you going to have to actually clear the mid tier first and then the savage? >> Yeah. I mean, even if you don't need to, but why would you not want it if it's like one week early? >> You know what I think they're going to do? >> I think they're going to increase the gap of item level each tier. Like instead of having like 770 crafted to 790 savage, I think they're going to add an extra 10 jump so that they can add more content in the middle. M >> yeah yeah yeah that's what the mid tier is right okay let's just say right now is 770 780 790 right crafted to man rate right so what if the mid tier drops 785 >> no what I'm saying is >> I think they're going to do 770 crafted >> 780 like >> whatever tome like and then 790 as like the mid tier and then 800 as the savage gear like I think they're I think they're going to increase the gaps because they're having so much problem finding a gap in the middle to add things anyway anymore, right? >> Okay. So, if they do that, if they do that and if this rate here is one week before, that means that you have to do it right before you do savage, right? >> Uh-huh. >> Yeah. >> Why not? >> So, if it's a weekly, why wouldn't you run eight characters for splits if you are going for war prog or if you're going for prog or I mean, [ __ ] it. You got nothing to do anyway. That one week you got nothing to do anyway. Why wouldn't you farm more gear? And and that lies the problem. Like I don't want to play this game like World of Warcraft where I need to make seven alts. One >> now you'll be [ __ ] miserable. >> Holy [ __ ] Yeah, you can't tell me. And you can never convince me or you can never convince anyone and say, "Oh, don't worry guys, you don't need it for Savage." Because why not? Why wouldn't I do it? Why Why did Ekko and Liquid do it anyway? Why wouldn't Lesia Why wouldn't DM Why couldn't Neverland >> Yeah, there's no reason not to do it. >> Well, yeah. If that became a a serious problem, they would probably just switch to releasing the like mid-tier stuff at the same time as Savage to like curve that I imagine. >> But like if if if there was a gap in the middle where you had the time to do it, you would obviously have to do it, right? >> Yeah. >> That's how like capping toms 2 hours before prog. >> That's the thing I'm scared the most, man. I I I I know we we we so we say a lot that this game needs me talk and you know how this game doesn't bridge normal to savage probably EX is not enough now they want to make EX red right I think that's cool but the thing is d how are you going to handle the reward you can't just give player material you can't just give player a freaking glamour that will be like bro what I mean these guys don't plan to do savage you know they just want to do say >> heroic gear you know they want to get achievement they they they don't want to do mythic you know this is like the heroic position. Although savage, >> you know, >> the only thing I could think is like they released this at the same time as savage, but you don't need this gear to do savage. So, you would just do savage. This gear is or this this raid tier is purely for the people that like they're like average players, I guess. I I don't know. >> Yeah, they don't want to do savage. I just hope the reward is not significant. If splits became a problem that people complained about, they would just release savage at the same time so that you didn't have the time to do the splits. >> I hope. Yeah, that's what I hope. Yeah, >> if you can clear. Okay, so they said they said that the difficulty of savage was not going to increase. So that probably means that you can that you don't need the mid tier to clear savage. So if that's the case, I think it's okay because you just don't ever have to go in there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Someone in chat is saying that if they re if they release it after savage is kind of weird, right? No, it's actually brilliant. I never think about that. If they release the mid tier one or two week after savage, that's actually [ __ ] perfect. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's actually perfect. That would be Yeah, the mid tier is not going to be for people who are doing savage. So, >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would actually be perfect. Holy [ __ ] I never thought about that. I think they should do that. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Like I've see like I was thinking about if they released it after or if they released it before. Um it just Okay, I don't think it matters if they release it before or after. I think it's going to matter if it affects Savage. >> I just don't want to do splits. That's all I [laughter] just want to do. >> Yeah. I think I think of all the things we're going to see them change in next next expansion, I think gearing progression is going to be >> very heavily touched upon. >> Yeah. >> Because they said a lot of things relating to gear progression. >> And also, you can kind of tell just by the problems they've had that the last few expansions with like rewards in in content. They're like they're really struggling to figure out how to how to deal with coming up with rewards for things. And I think it a lot of these changes to the like gear progression might be so that they're giving themselves new wiggle room to use gear as rewards. I think >> Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. I hope so, man. I hope so. The game needs it. The game needs more gear. Not not not beast gear but just like actual >> more it needs more horizontal gear too >> like alliance rate also alliance rate if we use current alliance rate should be 785 already you know it shouldn't be >> that's why I kind of think they're going to increase the item level gap gear from like 20 from like 30 to 40 that's the problem >> because >> it seems like there's a lot of content in the game where like the gear drop from alliance raids is like completely pointless. But if there was an extra 10 eye levels ahead of that and the alliance raid gear was actually 10 higher than the tombstone gear and the savage was 20 higher than the tombstone gear, then suddenly the alliance raid would like have a place for like >> Yeah, the alliance should give you savage level gear. It should 100%. >> At least in the current system, it should give you savage level gear because there's just no other spot for it to fill that doesn't make it instantly useless. But if there was a bigger gap in the progression, >> it comes out just way too late. Like, let's say it came out a month after. Okay, then I got you. You know, then it makes sense. But dude, it comes out 4 months after the [ __ ] raid tier. Like, you have a piece of content that comes out four months after the raid tier and it's not even the equivalent level of the raid tier. What the [ __ ] That makes no sense. >> Yeah. >> Like even as a casual, I think you stick around and play the game for four months, bro. you are not doing savage that's fine you know but I think even the end game players wouldn't be peace and you are like yay I finally wait four months I can do 24 man I can get a savage gear one piece a week I'm happy for you man you stuck around you know you deserve [laughter] it you know I even I myself is happy right I get one more gear myself you know like everybody wins you know >> yeah time for the the MS paint drawing >> oh [ __ ] >> yeah I'm just visually representing what I mean by like increasing the gap. If they just add one extra step. >> Yeah. One in between. When one extra step or just one in between. >> Yeah. >> If they do it like this, then they have this extra space right here that they can use for like alliance raid gear or mid or mid tier. >> Yes. >> Like this. This one extra step right here is like what they really need to like have a space for them to add stuff because right now like they add the alliance raid gear right here but this is just too low for it to matter. Right. >> And the the timing is also it's like it doesn't make any [ __ ] sense. >> Yeah. >> Like once the raids has been out for like 2 months any piece of content that comes out after that should just be [ __ ] raid gear, man. [music] It should just be [ __ ] raid gear. That's just how this game is designed. Because the the game is designed for you to get gear and then it to be absolutely [ __ ] completely worthless. Let's just finish it up. What are you guys What are you guys most looking forward to? >> A brand new game. A a same game but different game. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I just want to play the game differently. I want to be excited about even the smallest change. Even if it's [ __ ] we discover the [ __ ] together, you know? And then we got more things to talk about. Bro, from 6.0 until now, what are we talking about? Nothing. How do you optimize rotation? Here's a Shadowbringer rotation. One worse. Oh, how do I gear up? Well, it's the same thing as you did in 2.0 like it's been boring, right? If if I can discover something new, even if it's [clears throat] bad, I feel like we got things to talk about. >> Like that's why >> which is why this broadcast is revived. Yay. >> Yeah. That's Dude, that's why I stopped making like [ __ ] guides. That's why that's why when like Gunbreaker came out, I [ __ ] made a guide for it, man. Like because I wanted to talk about it because it was so new. because it was like that's my that's the thing I'm most excited for is that like like I want to see what's going to happen with the tanks. I want to see what's going to happen with the healers. I like all the evolved combat, all that [ __ ] I want to see this is so many new things all happening at once and I want to see it. And like you know, like I said multiple times, I am here for the shitstorm or the celebration. I don't give a [ __ ] which because [music] either one is going to be awesome. At the end of the day, I'm gonna play the best like the best tank, right? Like I'm gonna like I'm gonna play the best tank, right? So, if that if that tank is the new tank or if that tank is like Gunbreaker, Dark Knight, Warrior, whatever, it doesn't it doesn't matter to me. I will just I'll play it and I'll have fun. The thing that I'm most excited for is just how it's going to turn out. It's the It's the It's the curiosity. It's the It's the enigma, you know? It's the mystery. Like, like there's so many different things going on. How is all of this? How like, okay, this is going to sound a little toxic, but in my mind, I'm thinking to myself, how in the [ __ ] are they not going to [ __ ] this up? That's what I'm thinking about. How are they not going to [ __ ] this up? Because I'm here because I'm [ __ ] here for it, man. I want to see. I want to see because it's this is like the first time since >> this is the first time since like Shadowbringers, >> like when we went from Stormwood to Shadowbrers, it was huge. >> Heavens Wood, man. Yeah, it was huge. And then after that from Shadowbringers to was it Dawn Trail then or [ __ ] Inalker and then Inalker to Dawn Trail was like pretty much the same. [music] But now it's completely [ __ ] different. And this is like it's so good. >> It's so [ __ ] good. >> Yeah. It's been seven. It's going to have been seven years. I think seven to eight years or bad changes. So it's very exciting. >> And like that's why that's why the PE the there's like there it's so weird, man. People are so weird. There's so much like negativity around this. They're like, "Oh, well, you know, like what if they do this?" Or, you know, like, "What if that happens?" Or or, "Oh, you're only saying this because you're mad and all this." And I'm like, "No, man. You guys dude, you you guys have no idea." Like, I I am ridiculously excited for all this because I want to see how it turns out. Like, I want to see how all this [ __ ] turns out, man. Like, this is the Yeah, this is the first time in like seven years that we've had like this many changes and it's going to be [ __ ] awesome because >> I hope so. I mean, they like, make no mistake, they are definitely going to [ __ ] some of it up. Oh, yeah. It's just inevitable, right? >> Oh, yeah. For sure. >> Oh, yeah. >> You just you just can't get like the game is just big enough that you just can't you just can't do everything perfectly like on the first try. It's just how it is. But regardless, I'm still excited >> for them to be trying new things. >> Yeah. >> And I think a lot of people are excited. You see the amount of people that came back >> just because of that one keynote. So many people are coming back. >> Oh, yeah. everybody for the first time in 10 years I can finally tell my friend my you know sometimes in real life right me and my friend will still be like hey artist what are you doing playing games wait you are still playing games what games are you playing oh I'm playing Final Fantasy 14 wait still I thought we you are still playing after I quit in 2.2 too. Uh, should I go back? Is the game good? And I'm always like, "Yeah, let's not talk about Raid, you know. Now, now 10 years later, finally, if I meet them again, we have this conversation. I can tell that, bro, 8.0 is a new game, man. It's going to be new. You should come and check it out." >> Yeah, dude. >> I don't know. I'm excited, man. Like, literally everything. Literally everything I'm excited for. >> Some of it I think is going to be bad, but it's okay. It's okay if it's bad. That's the thing. It's okay if it's bad. The thing that I'm uh personally excited about the most is like a little personal and like strange, but uh I don't I don't know if I've ever told you, Zeno. I think we talked about before. I' I've been like uh coming up with a plan to learn how to play two characters at the same time. And I think uh I think the new reduced keybinds and stuff is going to make that so much like easier for me to to learn. Literally play one character with one hand and the other character with the other hand at the same time. >> I did that in 1.0 and 2.0 [laughter] actually >> until 3.0. 3.0 is where it became impossible. >> The the biggest the biggest problem I'm coming up with right now is just the amount of key binds. It's just hard to find buttons for it. Not even necessarily the amount of attention I have to pay. But also the the new changes for all the key binds and stuff seems very aimed at controllers. >> Yeah, >> I'm going to learn how to play controller next expansion, too, just cuz it seems like it's going to be so much better to play the game on controller next. >> Not me, bro. Not me. I'm a mouse and keyboard Andy. >> I want to try it. Finally, so I want to try it. >> No, dude. Like, yeah, if you're a controller player, you are eating hella good next expansion cuz they are designing that [ __ ] so straight directly aimed at controllers. I'm pretty sure >> mouse and keyboard forever, dude. You'll never catch me [ __ ] turning my camera with a dumbass analog stick. Ain't no shot, bro. No way. >> Yeah. >> All right, that's it. >> Yeah. >> GG. >> I think that's it, boys. That's it. Unless you guys have anything else, man. >> I thought it would be I thought it would be 2 hours, 3 hours, man. I thought I can sneak in a nap before. >> No, dude. That's why I said 2 p.m. because I knew it was going to be forever. >> Holy [ __ ] >> I knew it was going to be forever. I'm sorry. >> Nah, it's okay. It's okay. I slept earlier. I knew you're going to y >> I prepped for this. >> Well, uh well, thanks again. Thanks again, guys, for coming on the coming on the podcast. This last minute podcast. Uh, we might do another one after the next FanFest depending on how it goes. Depending on the information. Yeah, >> sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Because if they show an off tank and a shield healer and a caster, which they probably will, then >> Yeah, we're going to we're going to have to do another one of these after that for sure. We didn't even talk about the ultimate, but I mean, what's to talk about? >> No. I mean, >> Kefa Gooden. >> Yeah, Kefa. Good. That's >> top designer. the top designer leaves uh questions, but hopefully we >> No, it's going to be good. >> Hopefully the guy that made top doesn't strike twice. >> Well, uh yeah, you guys want to you guys want to sign off? Tell the tell the chat who you are. >> Yeah, sure. >> I'm at need to go. >> Thanks for watching. >> See you. >> Follow twitch.tv/arththurs. >> He's on Twitter. >> Subscribe for free with Twitch Prime. >> Exit lag. Use code Xenosis vex for 15% [laughter] disc 50% discount. Not 15, I'm sorry. 15 months for 50% discount. Or you can use code others. Whatever you like, >> right? I need [snorts] to go, man. I'll >> All right. Yeah. GG's, man. I'll I'll talk to you later. >> Yeah. >> Goodbye. >> Peace. >> Okay. Nar, you want to tell them who you are? >> Sure. Uh, I have been streaming more often. A lot of Final Fantasy 14. I've been trying to stream more often lately. a twitch.tv/narlock. Uh, and I also post uh tweets of Yans and memes. Uh, the same Twitter handle. It's just N A R R L O C K E everywhere. >> Okay. Well, yeah, man. I'll see you later. All right. Well, that was it. That was it, boys. I think that was a good show. I think that was a good show.