Agnostic Confronts Muslim On The Marriage Of The Prophet! Muhammed Ali

Okay, what can I do for you? Are you a non-Muslim? Do you have questions about Islam? Yeah, you know, to be honest, my friend is like super like huge believer like he's Muslim and I have been like talking back and forth about that. I'm not like I'm not Christian, but I like I've been basically born Christian because my father is Christian. So, but then I like kind of left the religion and I went my own way and recently I like discovered God and like right now like I'm kind of in between the Christianity and the the Islam and I'm still like you know not kind of like I'm still like kind of confused. I feel like I'm kind of stuck you know between that I like some things about Islam, some things I don't like then I like some things about Christianity. So yeah. So my like my friend told me to join this that you can you can actually cure some you know doubts and some things that I will be probably I'm stuck in. Uh so yeah. Okay. So I I'll give you the choice. What are the things that you don't like about Islam and what are the things that you like about Christianity? You know you can choose which one you want to start with and you and you're welcome to to go with that. So either you start by telling me what you like about Christianity or you start by telling me what you don't like about Islam. You can choose. Yeah. You know the main concern is actually following the following the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. That's kind of main concern because there is the argument that he married like 9year-old Aisha Arisha or what's her name there is a context to it. I know it's kind of stupid but there is bigger context to it that like at the time it was like different time and these things but in my perspective like if I choose to follow Jesus Christ or prophet Muhammad like for me it's easier to actually follow Jesus Christ because like in my perspective or like Christianity perspective he's considered like sinless but like the Muhammad he like married nine year old and also like he was I think mentioned like 80 to 100 battles or something like that. So yes in my perspective he was apparently he was like in 80 to 100 battles in his lifetime. So yeah so like right now like in my I'm like trying to like study as much as possible about like both religions but like that's like the main concern for me and like so far what I have learned it kind of makes me closer to Jesus than Prophet Muhammad you know. Okay. So, so these the common claim of Aisha which has really nothing to do with the foundation of the religion like in any way shape or form. Let let me just make a comment and then you can tell me what you like about Christianity because you made a contrast there. You you claim that oh I therefore I like Jesus because he was like peaceful or sless or whatever. Now uh first thing is you can't prove Jesus was sinless. That's just a claim you're you're making. Jesus didn't say that about himself. And if you look at his life for example where he forbade people from cursing for example see cursing is a sin he he told people not to curse because cursing is a sin but he cursed his own disciples he called them stupid and idiots and whatever he did that even though he told them not to do it. Jesus says to his companions or whatever that he's not going to the Passover and then he goes to the Passover which is considered a lie. Jesus a canonite woman needed to be I'm talking about the biblical narrative by the way that's not a Quranic narrative. We don't have these these information but that's what the Bible records of Jesus. Jesus a canonite woman comes to for him so he can heal her in Matthew 15 and then chapter 15 basically and then he literally tell her to go and then call calls her a dog refers to her as a dog. So if you want to talk about sin and sinless and whatever there's no way shape or shape or form you can use the Bible to prove that Jesus wasn't sinless. So that's that's the first. The second thing I I'm going going to say to you in the Christian belief, Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. Correct. I mean, yeah. Is he or is he or or he isn't? Which one? You got to make it because you didn't seem sure about that. Well, that's the the thing like I'm like I'm not 100% like sure to be honest about like I I like I kind of the more I read the Bible, the more I believe he's son of God. But to claim that he is a god, I I'm not I'm not standing behind his claim. Oh, okay. Okay. So, regard regardless then of what position you take on Jesus, I'm going to use the Bible. Can you show me where does the Bible tell you what is the correct age of marriage? I don't think there is uh anything like that. I don't I don't know like the body Bible with 100% certainty but I don't think there is like any you know age. Okay. There is there isn't there isn't. So if God didn't tell you which age it is then where do you get that moral teaching? Of course there are Christians who would refer to to verses in Ezekiel for example Ezekiel the book of Ezekiel which talks about puberty. So it talks about the women development of puberty and they will reference that that this is the thing that we can use to give us an indication that a a woman is ready. Now but there is nothing in the Bible the whole Bible from beginning to end whether it is old or new testament that talks about the age of marriage. Now can you tell me morality comes from God? Morality comes from the creator only. Human beings cannot make moral judgments. It will be subjective and therefore it's not binding. So if morality comes from God and God doesn't tell you what the age is. Then on what under what basis are you criticizing Prophet Muhammad for marrying any age? What what is the moral criteria that you're using to say that this was something that is not great? Whatever term you want to use. And you know what? here is why morally God doesn't agree with this or this is wrong or whatever term you want to use. What is the standard that you're using for that? I mean I kind of I'm like just like I mean if like in my perspective 9 year old is a child and Muhammad at the time he was around 40 and there's like grown. Okay. Okay. Okay. First first first look look I'm not asking I'm going to respond to what you just said which is factually incorrect. But before I respond to what you just said which is factually incorrect, I asked you the question about your own you you went on to give me your subjective view opinion which is not a criteria for morality. So can you tell me where do you bring bring that it is morally wrong not societal opinions not emotional views not I think this but it looks like that but it feels like this. That's irrelevant. That's not where we get right or wrong from. It's not feelings. Your feelings are not the the arbiter for us and we are not going to be judged by the opinion of you like I just met you today. We're not going to take you as the moral standard of a whole like you know to a billion people who are Muslims for example. Now you agreed with me that morality comes from God. So now can you tell me what did you use to come to that conclusion and make that claim that this is morally incorrect? What are you using for that? I mean to be honest like basically like from what I have like learned in this society. Okay. So you're using a subjective view of a person who's born in in somewhere in Europe in a 21st century. What they taught you today is what you're using as a criteria to determine that this is correct or incorrect. And it's subjective and is essentially social. You are a product of your own society and your society is not like every other society and it is not a criteria due to the fact it's being subjective to make moral judgments over other societies. Oh kind of confusing but yeah that's right like yeah we are yeah I agree I agree with that. Yeah but yeah okay so okay so moving on now moving on moving on. So if you don't have a moral command, we look at the Bible. Like I said, for example, if you you're now comparing Christianity and Islam. So we look at the Bible. If you look at the Bible, you see the book of Ezekiel like I told you that we have these verses that talks about puberty and we have people using it. Even that doesn't talk about like the right age of marriage or whatever, but it talks about women being ready and then it refers to puberty like for example development of certain body parts. I'm not going to because it's detailed and it's not really appropriate for for you know for all ages. I'm not going to say what the verses are saying, but you get what the point I'm making. Talks about like certain body parts. It talks about, let's just say the puberty, the development that it's related to puberty. Now, puberty can range all the way from 8 years old to 13 years old. I'm we're talking today. What is the source for that? That for example, the NHS, the National Health Service in the UK will tell you that puberty can range from 8 years old. You can ask any obviously anyways. It's a very common thing if you know if you have sisters or whatever they can tell you it can range all the way from 8 years old all the way to 13 years old. So under the biblical narrative this range from 8 to 13 is completely valid. Why is it completely valid? Because it is the age the puberty and puberty if we're basing it on Ezekiel then that would be the case. If we look at the the Bible it talks about for example the Bible chapter 31 in numbers the book of numbers chapter 31 verse 17 and 18. Do you know what what what is there? There's a command there where Moses commands his army. Moses the prophet of God commands his army. Sorry. Yeah. He commands his army to in war that they capture the little girls that have not yet known a man for themselves. And the word the word there the word there in Hebrew it's about children. So little girls, children, child girls to take them for themselves that have not yet known a man, have not had intercourse with a man, didn't do anything with a man. And the Bible has an explicit command to go and take this these girls for themselves. Now we get Christians are saying, "Oh, of course they're going to do this to them. They're going to the What are you going to do? They're going to take the little girls that for do what with them." Exactly. Even more. Yeah. What are they going to do with there? You know, they're going to take them to the Kinder Garden, which doesn't exist that time. Of course not. They take them for the only there's only one purpose where you take woman for it. And the emphasis on the idea of not knowing a man is there's only one reason why you would take them. And you can read the biblical commentaries on these passages that will clearly talk about that. You can look at for example the marriage of Rebecca and Isaac in the Old Testament which if you make a calculation of when when Sarah how old was Sarah and and how old was Abraham uh when he was born and all of these calculation come to the conclusion that she was between 3 and 10 years old between 3 and 10 you cannot go more than 10 but between 3 and 10 when she married Isaac and and we have rabbis right in the in in the Hebrew tradition which explicitly would tell you that it is okay to get married at the age of the age of three is the limit basically for them. They base it on this incident of Isaac and Rebecca. So now if you want to use the Bible now you're surprised but like that's that's the objective fact. This is the biblical narrative now. Okay. So, so if now we're talking about the biblical narratives, you you look at even the saints of of Christianity. You look at these saints of Athanasius and all all of these saints, you'll see many of them have, for example, had brides at the age of 12, for example. The age of marriage in their time in the Roman Empire was 12 years old. And that's why the Catholic encyclopedia would record that Mary was 12 years old when she married Joseph. And then based on that also you had the Roman Empire having the age of marriages 12 years old. So this is Christianity. Nobody can come from a Christian or Jewish worldview and tell us a certain age is right and a certain age is wrong because they don't have a sanction from God, a moral sanction, objective moral sanction or something determined using God's command that will tell us this age is right and this age is okay. Now not using the Bible now and using your society and I know you're trying to say like using you know society as an example. If we use society as an example, do you know the age of marriage for example in the UK and in the US 200 years ago? Now ignore the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him 1,400 years ago. I'm asking you 200 years ago. What was the the age of marriage in the UK in the US? Do you know? Um I'm not like you know certain with that but I heard it was like pretty low like now I don't know like 10 11 like what what's pretty low? Okay. So if you if you know that like like if you know that if you know that it was around that age then under what like kind of rational idea are you trying to criticize criticize societies were very different. Now the age of marriage in the UK was seven years old in the in the 1700s and 18 and 1800s. You can say that but the fact is that was the case throughout human history until only recently let's say the end of 1900s the middle 1900s where you had the second world war where they introduced women into the workforce. Uh the the liberal enlightenment movement feminism all of these things until all of that the age was this low in the whole world. Even today today because you probably think about a number 18 that's the only number you probably think about in your mind right now for being okay and not being okay but that's because your society convinced but the age of consent today in almost around the majority of the world this is 15 16 in the US today it depends on the state there are states that have as 50 as low as 50 some 16 so it's even today in America and in the west and in the entire world like the Philippines and and Japan or whatever they like 12 and 13 only like 10 years ago or something like that. They they recently changed it. Mhm. The people in the west are living in a bubble and they think the whole world is operating under their bubble. You know, many of them are living in a bubble and and and they're completely not in a view of human history. You know how humans lived history. Not only how they lived history but even today how they're still living history. They are completely unaware of that. and they would come and talk about the prophet Muhammad and the age this age that you got to wake up like the world does not operate under what you've been taught in school or or in your in your societal narrative. Just because someone convince you something is a no no it doesn't mean that the rest of the world operates under that same idea or that the whole human history operates under that idea. So when it comes to the UK, William Blackstone, which was a jurist, you know what a jurist is, like a judge, a jurist in in the UK at that time, he wrote a book, it's called commentaries on the on the uh law of England. And he was a jurist in at that time, living that time. And he's the one who records that a woman can be given a marriage at the age of seven. And obviously even in in the in the US, like I said, it was 10 years old. And some states like states like Delaware had it at seven as well. We're talking in the 1800s, 200 years ago. We're not talking about 1,400 years. That's why throughout human history until 100 years ago, you're not going to find a single person that criticized the Prophet Muhammad for that. You're going to see the the people criticizing Prophet Muhammad for everything for wars, for whatever you mention, which we're going to go come to, which is the wars of battles and all of this stuff. But you're not going to find a single person non-Muslim who criticized the prophet Muhammad for this action. Now first and foremost you're not going to find anyone in his society criticizing him for that because Aisha his wife she was betrod already before him before the prophet was introduced or even in the picture she was already betrod to someone else. You know what betro betro is like engagement like basically she was already betrod to someone else before him for marriage that this is how the society was. Nobody criticized the prophet Muhammad for that at that time and nobody did until I told you recently the last 100 years or whatever when things gradually changed. Yes. What do you want to say? Yes. So for sorry for interrupting I would like I have question another one. I don't have much time. So if you can move to another question. Yeah. No no like you you open you open this kind of forums you know. So because this kind of forums is not a small thing. A lot of people I'll tell you why people use this age this marriage thing. I'll tell you why people use it. People use it because of the shock factor. That's it. People today have been brainwashed to believe you. The shock factor. The shock factor. The shock factor. So, because people today have been programmed to believe a certain thing when it comes to the age, this number 18 is the only number they see day and night. They sleep 18. They wake up 18. It's like, look, if you're 17, you're 17. 600 and 360 days uh or 64 days or whatever. and 23 hours and 59 minutes and it's a crime if anything happens but 1 minute later it's okay. What kind of logic is that? That is the western logic of today. So the reality is uh women are different and their maturity levels are different and and it ranges from one person to another. Now you use the term child. So now let me correct you on what I said what you said is wrong. So let me correct you on what you when what I said you said was wrong. Can you define to me what a child is? You know words and and language have have definitions. So not your definition but the linguistic definition of the word child. Why is a child? I consider a child you know a human being that hasn't hit the puberty yet. H that has like a mind of child like most like yeah hasn't hit the puberty we can say simply. Sure sure. So puberty is the defining factor. By the way, in old dictionaries until some dictionaries only recently changed a little bit here and there. Open in a dictionary in human history, child was someone who is under the age of puberty. Now did become hit the age of puberty or she did not hit the age of puberty before consummation in the marriage of prophet Muhammad. Uh apparently she did. She did. So why did you use the term child? Why are you using a dishonest term which you yourself has just defined to be incorrect under a objective factor reality that she wasn't a child with the definition of a child? Do you know Prophet Muhammad he he he made a contract with with her three years before consummation and she wasn't with the prophet. Yeah. And and she wasn't with the prophet in the house. So So a marriage contract does not mean intercourse. It does not mean physical engagement with the person in Islam. You can have a marriage contract as a you know assurity that you are with this person. Okay. But it does not necessitate any physical contact. So Aisha was still with her family after that marriage contracts were done until she reached puberty and then the consummation took place. So why would the prophet wait if it was about young girls and all of these answers that people say? Why would he possibly wait until she hits the age of puberty? Because by definition, the people who do these things, when you use the term children, once you hit puberty, you're expired for these people, you know. No, it just it makes no sense. Why would you wait until that happens? That is the exact opposite of what you would want if you were that type of person. All right. Uh thank you for explanation. Can we please can you like give me more explanation when it comes to like those battles because uh my friend Okay, sure. Muslim I'm gonna say the last thing. Okay, I'm I'm gonna say the last thing and then I'm going to answer quickly this battle thing. Okay, when it comes to the prophetam's marriage, last thing I'm going to I'm going to briefly quickly mention uh because there's so many things I can mention on this as responses. I'm going to just briefly say something. The prophet Muhammad wasallam married multiple wives during his life. multiple wives uh 12 13 wives you can say throughout his life all of these women all of them were divorces and widows either divorces or widows except widows widows or divor or divor or divorcees meaning they got divorced or her husband died so the the the prophetam his first wife Khadijah she was 15 years older than him older so now we talk about age and older and younger she was 15 years older than him he was with someone else until she died. After she died, he married Saud, which was also an older woman and she was a a widow. Then he married all the rest of his wives, which were all divorces and widows. A man who is looking for women, young and all of these things, that is the last thing he would do. He would marry all virgins, young in age, and all of that. This image that people are trying to paint, it's nonsensical. Now the last the last the last very important comment I need to make but like I told you in the beginning this is not a foundational issue. If someone says I don't believe the prophet Muhammad married Aisha in this age. We as Muslims are not going to say this person is a disbeliever. That doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam because it's not one of the six articles of faith. It's not one of the five pillars of the religion. It's not a foundational issue. It's information about the age of a wife the prophet married. Yes. because I I do you understand this point? So So I'm trying I'm trying to I'm trying to say that this is not a criticism towards the religion of Islam itself. This is just a side point at best because if someone says I don't believe it that doesn't disqualify them from being a Muslim. But like I said only people use it because of the shock. Now now uh to talk about the battles you said 800 800 I don't know I said how many battles you said 8200 or huh? Yeah 8200 battles. Now, can you tell me what is the source for this funny story about 8200 battles? Where's the source? Because that's that is obviously a joke that never happened. But who did you get this number from? Summer Gardner who is watching this live stream. He he told me 8200. Well, of course that's nonsense. And there's no source for this. Uhhuh. Oh, I see. Well, the case they were not 8,200 battles. The overwhelming majority also to keep in mind with the with the with the exception of very few battles, you can say two or three or whatever or even less. The overwhelming majority of the other battles which were in the you can say from 10 to 20 battles if if you even want to go to to an extreme if you want to consider certain things battles and and certain things are not but they're definitely not 80 to 100. Now these battles the prophetam had the overwhelming majority of them were defensive battles. So the first battle for example the battle of Bad was a defensive battle a prophet he left Mecca because they they were trying to kill him and his companions and he had to go to Medina they followed him and and they fought him and they fought him there and tried to kill him the battle of it was also a defensive battle I can go on and on and on give you the number of defensive battles the prophetam battle of was a defensive battle there was so many defensive battles even certain battles which you can say are not necessarily defensive they were done they were done with justified reasons like for example there was a caravan going with the people of Mecca. They were going with a caravan and the prophet said that this caravan should be raided. This caravan is carrying goods. The Muslims who went to Medina left all their goods there. So they have a right to reclaim the things that they left because they left because they were running they were leaving for their lives. They had no choice because they were going to kill them. So now there's a caravan with goods. So they're trying to get back what belongs to them. So that is a justified reason. Similarly with the conquest of Mecca coming back to Mecca their homeland and their families and their their home land and city and when the prophet wasallam came by the way in the conquest of Mecca. Prophetam when he came with a huge massive army and the people in Mecca which were fighting all of these battles trying to kill the prophet one time after the other. Do you know what the prophet did when he came and they surrendered? You know what he did to them? They were persecuting him for 13 years. They killed some of his companions. I told you he had to leave because they were going to kill him. They sent a bounty hunter after him when he left. Now, do you know what the prophet did? He killed them all. No, of course he didn't kill them all. But that's the logical explanation. And even if he did that, nobody would blame him. But do you know what he did? He let them go free. He led the people who persecuted him, killed some of his companions, plotted to kill him, sent a bounty hunter after him when he left. He let them go free. Now you cannot do this. I cannot do this. You wouldn't do that. Someone were perse was persecuting me for 13 years. killed my my family members like you know uh I had to leave because they were plotting to kill me they fought battles and battle after me trying to kill me didn't even stop when I left but when I came back when I was in a position of of power I showed mercy now that is the prophet Muhammad that some people are trying to paint him as battles not battles and all of this stuff right so okay also because yeah there is um a thing that you know between Christians and Muslim people that Muslim people they don't believe like the Jesus Christ was crucified and Christians they believe that Jesus was crucified apparently there is arguments for that that uh Muhammad has been told that by an angel or something like that. So if you can please like you know just some like from your perspect perspective like clarify me like why do Christians believe that a Muslim do not believe that that Christ was crucified. Okay. Okay. Look, it's not not an argument that has been taught by an angel or whatever. The argument is Prophet Muhammad is a prophet of God. And if you are a prophet of God, then you receive revelation from God. Then if God says that someone was not killed, then this is a historical reality that someone was not killed. Now, when it comes to Christians, Christians have zero eyewitness account of the crucifixion. Not a single eyewitness account recorded at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus. It doesn't exist. Mhm. The Bible, the earliest manuscript you have of it. Do you know how many years? I know you're researching something. I don't know if you're listening to me or not. Yeah. You know what? I'm I'm so sorry, but I need to go. I just have a meeting. I'm so sorry. But, you know, thank you so much for explanation. Thank you so much for being here, but I really have to go right now. I'm so sorry. Yeah, that's f that's fine. But to give you one one statement to just answer your question very briefly and simply, there is no eyewitness accounts of the crucifixion. The the accounts of the Bible are 400 years later separate from Jesus. The Bible itself refutes the idea of the crucifixion. In the Psalms, there's a whole chapter which talks about the protection of Jesus that God promises. And the the narrative of the crucifixion itself is false. The three days and three nights that Jesus is supposed to remain in the grave. He doesn't remain in the grave three days and three nights. So the nar narrative itself is contradictory within the Bible itself. We reject it because we know God knows history more than anyone else. And there is no proof that any Christian can present that this is a historical reality. But for now, you can go and have your meeting. I was going to talk to you about Christianity obviously and and and start telling you the whole huge issues and and problems. But I I started by responding to the claims that you have because we don't have an issue responding to to to uh questions. But when we start talking about Christianity, then people disappear. But I will let you have your your meeting and and enjoy your meeting. All right, my friend. It was a pleasure talking to No worries.