Marta Havryshko: Zelensky Pays Tribute to Nazi Leaders

Welcome back to the program. We are joined again by Marta Havishko, uh, Ukrainian historian and scholar of Holocaust studies and Ukrainian nationalism currently working in the United States. So, uh, thank you for coming back on the program. >> Happy to be here. Thank you. So uh recently we saw uh the Ukrainian state well led by Sinski giving full state honors to Andre Milnik uh and his remains were then well were repatriated and uh reeried and in Ukraine. Uh you have come out and criticized this very fiercely. I was wondering if you can give some context to what what is actually happening uh with the because this is not the first instance of uh I guess um not well yeah let's call it whitewashing and uh paying tribute to quite dubious historical figures. >> Yes. But um this event is really turning point in national politics of memory in Ukraine. Why? Okay. For several reasons. First, Melik belongs to Ukraine nationalist movement and the cult of Ukraine nationalist movement belong first of all to western Ukraine where where it was originated. And when Ukraine obtained independence in 1991, these glorious cult of freedom fighters, members of Ukraine nationalists on the ground and Ukraine surgeent army up flourished and monuments appeared and the members of these Ukraine nationals underground bander, Melik and Johavage were celebrated as freedom fighters. But after modern revolution, this cult steadily um became more obvious in central Ukraine, let's say. But now, thanks to Zelinski, this cult became more and more obvious on the nation state level. So it was I was surprised actually that the remains of Andre Melik the leader of one of the fraction of Oun was brought to Ukraine not by Yusko President Yusenko who actually awarded the fascist leader Bandera the title of hero of Ukraine not by Poshenko P who actually had this very nationalistic agenda as well and was instrumentalized in this history of nationalist movement for his political aims. But the Jewish president, present with Jewish origin, present who paid tribute to to his grandfather, Simeon Zalinski, decorated war veteran who fought Nazis in the ranks of the Red Army. The president whose relatives were killed by Nazi liberators. And now he's bringing Andre Malik who was himself a Nazi collaborator whose people subordinates collaborated with Nazis in the ranks of auxor police. It means that they were hunting Jews as a policemen. They guarded ghettos. Then they convoy Jews to the killing sides and they participated in shootings of the Jews and also Andre Melik was a proponent of creating of Vafan Assess division Galatia. The members of Assess division Galatia paid tribute to Hitler. they participated in anti-Nazi in in suppression of anti-Nazi partisan um struggle in Slovakia and former Yugoslavia. So why the hell president with such a background with such a ideology and worldview will bring this Nazi liberator to Ukraine. And when I Hulk scholar, the scholar of Ukrainian nationalist movement, a Jewish myself, a granddaughter of Polish woman, saw the present kneeling in front of the grave of Nazi collaborator. I was ashamed. I was I was furious. I couldn't understand why the discussion even happened. It wasn't uh organized even public discussion. Do we need in democratic Ukraine such a national hero whose people participated in the killing of their Jewish neighbors? So uh I was really surprised why now and why it was happen why it happened under Zilinski president. And the second reason Zilinski as a comedian in his 1950s um vortal his entire career was built on making fun uh of Ukraine nationalism. when you see their sketches about Leviv and you know Ukraine nationalist and their anti-semitism and their chauvinism they often make fun of all this and now Zalinski is standing there with this you know face and um you know pretend that he knows the history of Ukraine nationalist movement very complex history and All these war crimes and crimes against humanity perpetrated by the members of Ukraine nationals underground movement. Oh, give me a break. And I was so so frustrated. But also what is very very important the silence of Ukraine historians and the silence of Ukraine intelligencia. This silence started to be constructed back then uh 10 years ago when memories memory laws were adopted under Poranka. According to one of these memory law so-called the humanization law members of Dupal were recognized as fighters for Ukraine independence and they really were the fighters for Ukraine independence. But two critical questions are still on the table. What kind of Ukraine state they desired and it was a teritarian state, ethnic state that's why they perpetrated ethnic violence against Jews, against Russians and against Poles. And the second questions with what tools and these tools was these brutal ethnic violence against civilian neighbors, elderly people, civil civilian um uh kids uh against women. And this brutality took lives dozens of their neighbors. So what we are glorifying today, we are claiming that we are protecting freedom and democracy. Ukraine government is claiming that Ukraine is moving toward the uh family of nation Europe family of nation where human rights and human life and human dignity is the most important. So why now you are celebrating Nazi collaborators? Why now after decades of of you know existing of Ukraine dependent state? Why now? And we we understand why now because Ukraine instead of the Soviet myth is creating nationalist myth in order to mobilize society on the war against Russia. And we understand that 7 million Ukraines fought against Nazis. Nazis nowadays are fallen heroes. They are marked sometimes even as Soviet collaborators as occupiers. And those Nazical operators, 300,000 of the thousands of them and only 100,000 were in Ukraine nationals underground now are perceived as national heroes. What is that? 73% of Ukraine voted against this in 2019 and now they're afraid even to raise their voices against this and nobody is asking them about their opinion because public discussion wasn't organized. The office of the president just told Ukraine you know we will bring this guy to Ukraine. It was just you know information just public was just informed. No public discussion no critical you know thinking about this. Do we need this Nazi hero on Ukraine so soil? Do we need such hero? What does it mean for our future? What does it mean to present Ukraine? And another issue which was very striking Ukraine army nowadays is appro approximately 1 million people and 120 brigades. Why only one brigade the third assault brigade which is rooted in Nazi Azo movement was present there. And among those guys were people with problematic worldview. For example, the guy um with the nickname McGregor who possi symbol. the guy who is um um a frontman of the band Suruna which has the song six million words of lie which is about Holocaust denied denial and all those guys were present in this I um in this state funeral with this top military and state officials. And what is very interesting the same brigade recently celebrated the anniversary of creation of assist division Galatia but they remain silent on 8th May when Ukraine on the national level marked the end of the second world war and uh and mourned the victims of the Nazis. ISM and Ukraine lost approximately 10 million people in the Second World War. Not even a ward from this brigade. And this brigade formed a third army corpse, approximately 50,000 people. They remained silent but instead they celebrated Nazi collaborators swaps division Galatia and they were invited by the office of the president to participate in the state funeral and the state tribute to Nazi collaborator. So it's not just some funeral, it's not just some event. It's a very problematic sign and symptom of memory politics in Ukraine that turn into uh World War II revisionism, Holocaust distortion and Nazi apology. And what and I was very struck by the fact that Germany which is a guardian of the memory of Nazi atrocities in the Soviet Union and particularly in Ukraine. Germany sponsored so many monuments in Ukraine, memory sites in Ukraine remain silent. Not a statement, not a word. Mainstream German media are not critical even about this. German officials are not critical. Chancellor Mers are silent. Why? They see IDF as a farright neo-Nazi movement but don't see that Ukraine government is celebrating neo-Nazis and invite them to celebrate Nazi collaborator to glorify Nazi collaborator openly. What is going on? We should all ask this question. what is going on in Ukraine and where Ukraine is heading with this kind of memory politics. >> Yeah. Well, I can I can understand kind of how the because the you know the fascist groups in Ukraine, they've always been small, marginal. I mean, it wasn't as if the Ukrainians majority wanted them. But I think they can be used in used in a very instrumental way. Um because uh well the whole idea that the fascists are liberators. I think it's it's it's an interesting development because I I often make the point that the the historical closeness of the Ukrainians and the Russians after living in the same state for centuries. Uh I think it was um it might be mistaken but it could have been soliten who referred to it as a double-edged sword because on one hand in the east you find many Ukrainians who essentially say well we're brotherly people. Many argue, you know, why do we even have two separate states? Essentially, we're one people. We're all descendants of Kievan Rous. But then in the western parts, there's many, and I would add quite reasonably, who argue that, well, this closeness also can diminish our sovereignty. That is, if if you're all the same, why do we have our own state? So, they can see this um this history as being a threat to sovereignty. So, uh, any anti-Russian narrative essentially that presents the Russians as being the, uh, you know, the inheritors of, uh, of the Mongols, for example, the Golden Horde, uh, the Aiatics, while the Ukrainians represent the real, you know, Aryan Europeans. That that's a good way of solidifying I um um, I guess a distinctive identity. So, I can see the pragmatism of this. Uh I'm not condoning fascist ideologies just to make it clear. But I I think also if you look at why Germany would be quiet because you pointed out Germany I think it's important that you know when when the Germans defeated the the Russians in the first world war you had um you know it was end with the breast lik treaty it was again represented as Germany liberating the Ukrainians. But in reality, every historian agreed that this was, you know, simply taking Ukrainians from being part of the Russian Empire to being uh vassel of the Germans. And then of course afterwards the Germans were defeated. And then we have second world war and we see the Germans yet again uh they see all this nationalist and they think in Ukraine who wants to have a greater distance from Russia. They see you know a tool essentially they can use. So they begin to uh yeah cooperate with many. You see then a lot among the Ukrainian nationalists many beginning to become integrated into the fascist ideology. Uh and now I would argue a third time we see again after the cold war that is our goal in uh you know was to create a collective hedgeimon. We're going to unify all of Europe eventually under EU and NATO either as member or de facto members except for Russia. So creating a Russia without uh sorry creating a Europe without Russia you know this means derifying the continent and suddenly I think the fascists groups in Ukraine they become our natural partners because they want to deassify Ukraine we want to derify Europe or when I say we I mean our political leaders so um so it kind of goes without saying that this uh you know there's a common interest I'm not saying that the western leaders have subscribed to Nazi ideology it's a bit like whitewashing Golani in Syria. We can be friends with jihadists. We can be friends with fascist, you know, as long as they serve a goal. So again, it's I think it's instrument instrumental. But what's your takeaway of the the way Western media has addressed this cause in Poland there's outrage uh because of all the Poles that were killed by Ukrainian fascists during World War II. But um I'm looking at the Western European media especially and there's you know crickets there's there's nothing there. I read some yeah I think it was New York Times when they said uh >> uh a divisive historical figure about Andre Milnik which is a weird way you know they can call Hitler divisive as well if they want but you know this is how what's your takeway >> yeah yeah controversial they also I I saw some uh controversial they can say you know um uh what I can say. So we had this bureau of Malle and the next day Zilinski awarded one military unit this title heroes of UPA. Yeah. Ukraine surgeent our army. And then Poland was very offended and we had this series of of protest from Polish officials especially President Namroski, Polish President Namroski. He said that he will strip Zilinski of this high state honor. Um um ya a this white eagle. Um then we we had this statement from uh prime minister uh tusk. He said that um this decision uh harms the memory of victims of UPA because according to Polish um this institute of national their institute of national memory there were at least 100,000 Polish uh civilians killed by Ukraine insurgent army opan in eastern Galatia and Valinia during during the Second World War. And today we saw that Lublin city council they removed Ukraine flag from their building. And today another Polish official said that Zalinski should make a call to Navroski and make and bring his apologies. So we still have this you know outrage from Polish side because for Polish people it's very sensitive topic and Ukraine side do not want to apologize and um what I noticed that um many people in Ukraine uh even very liberal people started to adopt these farright formula our land, our heroes. This was formula that we hear it um on party, these farright neo-Nazi marches that celebrated Bandera birthday, you know, but now it's a mainstream slogan, you know. For the past four years since 2022, Ukraine's constantly were feeding this narrative. You protect Europe. You protect all of us and basically European politicians and eur and western media. They erased this messiah complex in Ukrainians and they really believe that they can have this, you know, fascist and Nazi heroes and it's no one's business and everyone must just give them money and they can spend this money for you know state bureaus uh of Nazi collaborators and building these, you know, fancy fancy cemeteries for them and fancy monuments for them. No, it's not. Ukraines must understand that European values actually and uh means that they adopt these World War II memory formula about never again. Okay, we can discuss what never again basically means nowaday. Yeah. Looking at Gaza, you know, West Bank and all this stuff and never again for for for whom and so on so forth. Yeah. So we can discuss all this but you can celebrate neo-Nazis. You can arm neo-Nazis basically. Yeah. You can celebrate ethnic violence. Um and Ukraine's uh Ukraine officials now really really can't understand that it's not only their their business. You know 10 million 10.5 million Ukraine pensioners are completely dependent on the West. Ukraine teachers, Ukraine doctors, Ukraine children. Everyone in Ukraine is depend on the west. And nowadays when Ukraine completely depend on the mercy I will say of its western partners. Zalinski is doing this. I can't understand this. We we saw this, you know, um um we saw the the this um new statements from Hungary. Yeah. About protection of Hungarian minority. So now we have problem problems with Hungary. Serious problems with Hungary. Yeah. And Zalinski created more problems now with Poland. And why is problematic? Because Poland is the second country with the biggest number of Ukraine refugees. So the ordinary people may suffer the consequences. I mean hate crimes for example. Yeah. So local people who have ordinary people, ordinary Ukrainians who have nothing to do with Zalinski politics, you know, and his hoodspa will suffer the consequences in their daily life may suffer consequences because we already see the rise of hate crimes in Poland against Ukrainians. We see this. Yeah. Many people say in Poland, we are fed up with Ukrainians. No more help, no more this, you know, hospitality, no more. So I believe it was very um it was very stupid move from Zalinski. Uh and um you know when you put Heroes of Yeah. on the title on any title. Yeah. Union, a school and so on so forth. You just close the discussion. Yeah. It's a way to celebrate, glorify to make them, you know, only heroes. It's not about debate. It's not about their complicity in ethnic violence. It's basically the road to punish everyone who criticized them. That's why for example I when I was put on this metokit list one of the evidence against me was my academic article about genderbased violence against women perpetrated by the members of Dupal rape and other shamebased punishment of women for example cutting their hair off for romantic relations with the Red army officers, for example, they were Ukrainians. Those guys were Ukrainians from eastern Ukraine, but they were bad Ukraines because they were Soviets. Yes. So they were Russian speaking and they believed in Soviet Ukraines. So Ukraine, so they were perceived as enemy men and local women, local girls were punished by them, by members of Dupa by cutting their hair off. And back then 80 years ago, it this kind of punishment undermine social standing of those women and their families. They became non-marriageable after that. So it became tragedy for those women especially in rural areas in their villages and this article and they killed Polish women for example or rape them. They they killed those women from eastern Ukraine who were sent to to western Ukraine. And when I published this article this article I was punished basically for the for this article. So every single historian now who is trying to preserve critical thinking about own and opa has no prospect of academic career in Ukraine. It will be stigmatized. It will be stripped of this job and it will be basically removed from uh stripped of any any prospects in in Ukraine in this kind of Ukraine. Yeah. So I believe it's very very problematic. These kind of developments in Ukraine is very problematic and it's not about you know some some specific field of research of or some specific academics and historians. It's about the state of society where where war criminals and um those who perpetrated war crimes against innocent children, women, elderly are celebrated as heroes, as national heroes. It's very problematic. >> Yeah. Well, well, this is the thing. Well, before I said there could be some strategic advantage in leaning into the nationalist narratives, you know, as a wartime strategy and also to, I guess, reorient Ukraine away from Russia. But, you know, if I was advising the Ukrainian government, I would say it would also lead to some predictable strategic problems. One, when you dehumanize millions of Ukrainians themselves, uh, this has, uh, you know, you can't really have a cohesive society. And even with the war fighting it impacts because now there's you know all these people who are you know either millions who fled the Ukraine or people are in hiding in Ukraine who do not you know well they don't see necessarily the incentive in fighting uh you know for a government that views them as second rate citizens and uh essentially called their own language you know their mother tongue to be you know make them criminals and traders. So it's uh you know Aristovich who you know former adviser to Silinski actually made this point. I know he he has shifted his position more than once. Uh but I thought this was a sound one. It's well the argument on itself irrespective who came with it. It is quite reasonable that is this was a key mistake. They could have had millions of patriots wanting to defend the homeland. uh but when the homelands defined in this extreme nationalist terms uh you know millions of people were will essentially turned their back on it. This is not a strategic move but also of course the second was uh alienating important partners. Now I know a lot of western governments have done their very best to look the other way but there's still some people are asking questions. So what are we doing here? Why? >> Yeah. >> You know, you know, we keep being told in the west that no, no, well, you know, Zinski is Jewish. This is all >> Russian propaganda, but then we get the media reports, you know, we we see the fascist symbols adopted by the army. We see what both, you know, Poland, Israel, both express outrage about these fascist symbols and uh yeah, reviving the fascist memories. Uh it just it's hard to it's hard to explain this. that the narrative starts to crack. But u uh but how do you think this uh how how can this go on for to such an extent you think and still be ignored because in Europe I mean you know Sinski can beat everything. He can be caught red-handed in corruption. It doesn't matter. He can purge the political opposition, the media, the Orthodox church and still he's hailed as a democratic hero. You know let's give him the peace prize. Uh how do you make sense of this though? >> You know I'm um in 2022 actually when um the war started I I impose self censorship and I didn't criticize him. I start to criticize in 2023 when I uh I was struck by this, you know, when um Nazi when a root at Sir Dol Brigade organized this um exhibition where they recreated photos of the Vafences Division Galatia um and basically they compared themselves with members of Venences Division Galatia. Yeah. So it wasn't uh Kremlin propaganda. Yeah. But themselves compared they themselves compared um their fighters to those who fought for Nazis. Yeah. And served Nazi cause. And when I pointed to this fact, I understood that you know nobody actually from my colleagues is willing to support me. Nobody even those who study Holocaust, even those who had Jewish origin, even those in the west, those in the western academia. And it was very interesting phenomenon for me. I they explained to me that it's not the right time to criticize Ukraine government because all these uh important yeah those talks are very important but these problems are minor in compared um to Russian aggression and they must be p postponed until Ukraine's victory and I told them that you will be terrified by the society society that you will build by your silence. You will be terrified by this society. And now couple years um you know later what we see we are terrified by this society because the lens concentrated more and poor more power. Ukraine became more authoritarian. Now Ukraine army became army of the slaves. Um 90% of men when that are uh up in the army are caught in the streets by the draft officers those who don't comply are severely beaten and you know and many people still in the west they are making reference to some legality and I explained to them that racial laws were in in Germany in 1935 were also legal and racial segregation in US was legal and lynching was legal. So it's a bad very bad idea to justify force mobilization by the law. And today we see that a started from you know 1,000 plus people now as a moment have two army corpse you know I was laughing when I was watching this black sea security forum in Odessa that was last week and um you know uh the chair of one of the session was introducing guests and um he said and now we invite the member of elite brigade and I was laughing because I was sure that it will be a rooted third assault brigade and I was right. they you know the ch they changed the discourse about avolve and now in in this um in this public opinion it's an elite brigade the third assault brigade the all commanders are from this old ao they are radicals with white supremacist views now they advocate hate against with very racist and chauvinistic slogans against labor migrants. They are misogynist, they are very racist, they are anti-semitic and they still call them elite brigade. So now we have two corpse formed from Azo movements and you know I I am really I really believe that those western countries and especially Ukraine neighbors like Poland, like Hungary, like Romania, like Czech Republic, they must be worried of those developments because as all has the concept of greater Ukraine. And I encourage all those people who still believe that Azo is really innocent to look at their concept of greater Ukraine and to the map of the greater Ukraine that includes all the neighboring part of the neighboring states. Bazov has the imperialist concepts concept and Ukraine has the most hardened army in the Europe and I believe that in the future it it's really uh it's really the great probability that western countries NATO NATO countries will have the problem with Ukraine, not with Russia, but with Ukraine and with these very radical but very active and ideologically motivated guys who will try because you know just last week Azo commanders talked about going to Transnistria to PR Stroia and help moved over. Zalinski talked about helping Romania. Yeah. And we don't know what does it mean. Yeah. And Moldova and Romania are talking about joining in into one state and uh you know they they are threatening Belarus for example. Uh also we are hearing talks about uh locating some brigades in Baltic states to protect you know Ukraine in order to protect Ukraine. We are hearing these talks now from high level top Ukraine commanders. Just listen to them. Just listen what they are talking about you know and they are really really uh they have really great military experience combat experience and they have a great NATO weapon. Yeah. And in comparison to to Polish army and to to to army of other NATO countries, they have great military uh combat experience, war experience. So uh I am not optimistic. I am not optimistic about the future of Ukraine. And the main ideology in Ukraine is ethnationalism. It's a very very uh dangerous ideology. very dangerous ideology pushed by by Azol and um and um now it works in turbo turbo mode and supported by Zalinski because for Zalinski regime relies on Azovv that's why we see that all neo-Nazis in Ukraine all farright groups they support Zalinski they constantly advocate Zalinski they constantly write towards Zalinski all corruption scandals they go to different shows and say but you know Zalinski didn't know he's innocent he didn't know it's unbelievable it's unbeliev I couldn't believe that I will witness such an aliens between Zalinski office and his inner circle and neo-Nazis and far right in Ukraine but this is fact now >> we see a lot of strange uh grouping comes up. I saw you mentioned the the security forum now in Odessa and I saw also on the guest list there was Rea Lavi who you know is the the monarchist from Iran that is the ones who want to bring essentially the sha rule back. It's it's a very strange mix of people. You know, I was waiting only for to see Golani pop up pop on the list as well. But uh but but I agree. I think you know the this the idea that can just take this kind of group and um use them as an instrument to achieve some strategic objective. It's very dangerous and as you said it can you know can corrupt the entire collective consciousness of uh of Ukraine. I mean, if you want to save Ukraine, I don't think putting these people, the banderas, to essentially define the Ukrainian soul, if you will, that this is, you know, you you would might end up killing it. So, it's a, you know, and also, you know, if you look at Germany during World War I, they they sent Lenin in to to the Russian Empire because they hoped that, you know, if you have a communist revolution, this would take them out of World War I. Well, now you have Bolsheviks ruling Russia for the next few decades. uh you know same as uh supporting bin Laden to fight the Soviets then later on then you have the jihadists you know global terrorist so it's you know it you can see we're sowing problems for the future here but uh it's very difficult to even say criticize Nazis anymore even in Western Europe because every in political propaganda you want to often divide everything into two simple binaries that is you either you're supporting the Russian invasion of Ukraine and all the horrors it has caused or you're supporting Ukraine by not criticizing and um by not criticizing it. So if you criticize the celebration of fascist groups, then well then you're you're undermining the standing of Ukraine, which means then you're taking Russia's side. If you're if you're showing some empathy towards or even reporting on uh on the on the Ukrainians which are dragged out of their homes, you know, the busification sent to the front to die. Well, then you're also taking Russia's side. If you point to the fact that majority of Ukrainians want negotiations indeed that in 2019 as well, the majority voted for peace, well then you're also taking Russia's side because this is taking credibility away from the government. So, you know, what's considered pro- Ukrainian in Europe is it's essentially, you know, to ignore the wills, the will of the Ukrainians and just, you know, don't boycott the diplomacy, just send more weapons in and fight to the last Ukrainian. It's kind of a gruesome thing. And you know, even in this country, I'm in Norway and you know, our this politician is the head of the committee on foreign and defense affairs in parliament. He you know he goes to Ukraine he takes picture with uh Billetki you know and then posted on his uh you know this is the guy who you know before the Russian invasion you had British media all all media reporting quotes from him that he you know he said the mission of Ukraine is to lead the white race against the Jews and the interchwash comments they've done their best but also yeah when also then greet ing of course ASOV members with you know their yeah you know with all their logo symbols on uh in in in the parliament and this is considered to be pro- Ukrainian. I mean I think it's shameful for Norway and shameful for Ukraine. These people don't represent us in any way but uh but you know Boris Johnson did the same waving the big a flag in the British Parliament. I mean our forefathers must be spinning in their graves. This is just uh it's Yeah. And also it doesn't I mean if if if it did something at least to help Ukraine that would be one thing but you know imagine if you're sitting in Moscow now and you see this you're essentially now thinking well you know all this historical Russian territories all the millions of Russians who who now you know live in Ukraine uh the social contract has been broken they're not allowed to represent them anymore will take all the territory back I mean at least when the war began some more modest uh rhetoric from Moscow. These days they refer to you know Ukraine as you know country 404 so-called Ukraine is becoming quite aggressive failing to even recognize the not just a government but the legitimacy of Ukraine as a country. Uh this is uh this is uh yeah a disaster which it should be toned down. Instead we're just encouraging the worst instincts will which will get the worst possible reactions. I it's hard to understand where this is going. Uh but I guess yeah that's my last question how how sustainable do you think this is the because uh you know I can understand a lot of Ukrainians get caught up you know they invaded they lost a lot of uh men territories lost infrastructure being destroyed I guess I can understand the logic that you know with the war being the main priority all these other things we we push it aside we'll deal with it later at least this is the sentiment I think among uh the western political class. But uh ho how how durable do you think this is? Do you see any cracks? >> Oh, >> you know uh western media. So nowadays um Zalinski recently told um Ukraine media that probably we can expect that until the end of this year the war will end. But in reality uh western media published information based on their sources that Zalinski is preparing for two and three more years of war. Why is so basically this narrative about half a year of war is for Ukraine audience um only for Ukraine audience. It's about please wait couple more months. Everything will be okay. Everything will be okay. We will deal with this. We will get money. We will reform draft office centers. They will be um more polite. They will ask your husband politely to go to this van, you know, and to go to the infant infantry. you know, but um it's it's all sound like, you know, like fairy tales and more and more people in Ukraine, they are losing hope. I'm talking to all my relatives in Ukraine and I it's like a never never ending nightmare. And what we see what what we see that those those people who now are trying to escape of uh from Ukraine are mostly men. Not even not even women but men. Because nowadays the main main objective for for people is to survive. And for men to survive this war is getting you know the task uh on uh it just you know you can't do this because those hunters are everywhere in the bus stops in the street in gyms in hospitals everywhere. You go you know to to to to grocery stores and you are kidnapped. You go to your dentist and you are kidnapped. You are not safe anywhere. And Ukraine men are most vulnerable. You know, we have this feminist mantra that women and children are more vulnerable in the war. But nowadays we we observe how men are vulnerable. Their bodily integrity is completely violated. When we see this harsh scene, how they are beaten, how they are um how they are brutalized, it's is just unbelievable. And nobody asked them, "Do you want to die for this corrupt state?" Um that's why I I have no hope. Ukraine is turning into private military company of the west and return to this Black Sea Black Sea security forum. When I listen to Senator Kelly and Blumenal, they want to fight. They still feeding Ukraines with this you know fairy tales about you know you are close to the victory. just keep going. And I listen to Kellogg and he's talking about these enormous you know sufferings of Russia and losses of Russia and nothing nothing about Ukraine losses nothing about you know and I'm tracing losses of my city and Leviv region every single day and every single day five names six name up to eight names names every single day and nobody count them. They are just numbers. And for Kellogg, Kelly Blumenal and others neocons who advocate the interest of uh merchants of death and arm sellers, arm producers, those people don't exist. They are just numbers. And they even don't dare to to name these numbers. They don't even uh talk about these numbers. They never mentioned even these numbers because those numbers are also terrifying. The losses of Ukraine. They never talk about deserters even official numbers. 300,000 of deserters and those who went a wall. This is huge numbers. Nobody's talking about the them uh on these security forums. Nobody is talking about the price. Nobody is talking that Ukraine that Zalinski can protect civilians you from drones attacks and from bombs attacks. Nobody is talking about that that and nobody is talking that Ukraine is also targeting civilians like it was in Stoilk and those students were Ukrainians born in Ukraine and raised in Ukraine and now in Ukraine military discourse media discourse they are called collaborators just collaborators who are not deserving our pity. They are just collateral damage. And Mervid's heat website even put teachers of the Stoelisk uh Stoilisk uh college several teachers on their website accusing them of collaboration with uh with Russia. So basically Ukraine Ukraine people are raised in this hatred even towards their own people. So when I hear this you know um the these words from Zilinski we will not leave our people. We will not leave Donbas because they are our people. No it has nothing to do with Donbas and it has nothing to do with with the people. He just don't want to war war to stop because stopping war for him means losing losing the power and losing the the source of profit for him and his uh his inner circle. So um I am not optimistic about Ukraine and um I am very concerned about this society that Ukraine is building this highly militarized society ethnistic society where chauvinistic society full of hate and full of censorship. Um I don't want you know um this kind of future for Ukraine children. That's why I took my child and every single day. I am happy that I uh I save my child from uh from this because when I see this this this all these developments I'm just you know when I see a guys uh use au centuria in Ukraine public schools and they allowed to all these schools and other these farright organizations you know performing uh lessons of courage marriage in Ukraine public schools with all these, you know, hate symbols. I'm just terrified. What are you doing, guys? It just And all this so normalized in Ukraine nowadays. I feel very sorry. I feel very sorry. It's like it's like a hell nowadays. Yeah. problem is when the war is over as well because of uh this new identity they're trying to create uh many as as yourself will probably not come back in it's going to be very hard to rebuild uh if if the people don't actually come back so it what what kind of country one is going to create it's not you know we'll deal with this later I think it's a big problem but uh but for me always the main frustration is again as I mentioned before this simple binary you know you're pro Ukrainian or or you're pro-Russian that that that's all. And and this essentially makes uh any discussion, you know, or any anyone is immune to criticism because you're not allowed to be pro-Russian. And you know, apparently if you if you're worried about uh you know, Ukrainian is being sent to their deaths, that means you're you're cheering for the invasion. You know, there's no middle ground. Uh but you know I'm I'm thinking back you know for example in u in March of 2014 uh Henry Kissinger you know he wrote an article saying that you know we should give up this right after Russia took Crimea in Russ we should give up this idea of you know making Ukraine oh sorry making Crimea no sorry making Ukraine a front line either of the Ukraine of the west against Russia or Russia against the west. the only way Ukraine can, you know, rem remain intact and not destroyed is if it becomes a bridge, not a front line. This today would be considered anti- Ukrainian. Uh same as if but if you argue, you know what, best way to end this war is to agree to for the NATO countries to agree a security arrangement with Russia in which we stop for example NATO expansion, essentially remove Ukraine from the front lines of a divided Europe. And this way we can save that nation. This would also be considered now to be pro-Russian. And uh even people like you mentioned Keith Kellogg before, you know, he had this General Keith Kellogg was again became this envoy. He was making he was giving this speech. You probably seen it where argued that you know this is just the top of professionalism. What we're doing now is, you know, we we're having Ukrainians to fight Russia, then we can weaken Russia, and then we can focus our resources on on um on uh on on confronting China. So, you know, the Ukrainians are, you know, meat we can throw at the Russians. And I made a comment about this and he he he tweeted me back saying, "Well, this is, you know, Sunsu stuff." So, he which is very weird. But anyways, my point is he's considered pro- Ukrainian. Why? He openly said, "We can use the Ukrainians to knock out Russia from the ranks of great powers, which allows us to focus on on uh on Russia." Why is this pro- Ukrainian? The only logic in this is that it weakens Russia. So, if bad for Russia, it's good for Ukraine. And yeah, I was I looked at this. Yeah. Here, um have a this article from uh 2023 because this was it's in the Washington Post. It was after this uh uh disastrous counteroffensive by by Ukraine. Again, they got slaughtered when they went down in Saporia just uh a lot of men uh yeah perished. And uh yeah, this is a direct quote from uh Washington Post. It said again after the hor horrible counteroffensive uh it says, "Yeah, the West's most reckless antagonist has been rocked. NATO has grown much stronger with the addition of Sweden and Finland. Germany has waned itself off uh independence from Russian energy and in many ways rediscovered its sense of values. NATO squables uh make headline, but overall it's been a triumphal summer for the alliance. And it goes on saying that this has been this has the last 18 months have been a windfall. It's been a great success except of course for all the dead Ukrainians, the destruction of the country and uh but again this is how pro pro- Ukrainian rhetoric is these days. >> And if you criticize this saying they can't win, why are we continuing to do this? Uh well, that's a Russian pro-Russian argument and you're a traitor. It's it's Yeah, >> I have never seen political propaganda like this in my lifetime. It's quite extraordinary. But um >> yeah, >> anyways, any final thoughts before we wrap up? >> I just hope that that this war will will end because too much suffering, you know, and I hope that you know show like yours and other will undermine this um mainstream discourse, hawkish discourse. um in the west that keep the keep feeding this war and present this as um raw Ukraine actually. Yeah. Because I'm I'm and many many people in Ukraine are tired of this. Yeah. Let's hope for the better. Yeah. >> I agree. I guess a last example which could have been made was when uh the head of German intelligence made a point that we should keep this war going for another five years so we can prepare ourself >> for conflict with Russia. So this is yet another pro- Ukrainian statement. We need them to go to the front lines another five years so we can prepare ourselves. Uh it's uh yeah now it's uh horrible horrible this is uh yeah I can't believe yeah it's gone this far and uh probably will go even further if it continues to go on but yeah like you I hope this war comes to a quick end and yeah too much suffering already. Anyways on this very sad topic nonetheless thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. >> Yeah thank you Glenn. Thank you so much.