What the Headlines Reveal About Your Community’s Spiritual Needs

Welcome to today's

Tithely webinar. Thank you for your patience

while we got some technical issues sorted out. Let's dive in. Today's guest is

Doctor. David Crosby. No, no, not the one

from Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young. Although after

hearing your story, you may agree that he has had

just as fascinating a journey. Pastor Crosby has spent more

than five decades serving the local church, leading

congregations across Texas, Mississippi, and Louisiana

since nineteen seventy three. He currently serves as pastor

of First Baptist Church of Goldthwaite after previously

serving for twenty two years as the longtime pastor of First

Baptist Church New Orleans. He's also led First

Baptist Simple, served on numerous

denominational boards and committees, helped

launch Truett Seminary, and continues to invest in ministry

leaders across the country. David grew up as the second

of thirteen children. Let that boggle your mind.

Thirteen children. Wow. In a pastor's home. And sensing god's call to

ministry while attending Baylor University, Sickem Bears, where he studied

journalism and religion. He later earned both an MDiv

from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and a PhD

in religion with a focus on theology and church

state studies. Along the way, he's written

editorials for major publications, published six books, and built

a legacy centered on faithful pastoral leadership. He's been married to his wife,

Janet, for fifty three years. That is amazing. Together, they have three

children, seven grandchildren, and through every

season of ministry, David has carried a pastor's

heart for people, truth, and the local church. Pastor David Crosby,

welcome to today's webinar. Thank you, Chris.

Glad to be with you. Yeah. We are excited

to have you here. Throughout this whole series, what we're trying to

do is cover a pathway, helping churches build a

clear connected pathway from discovery through discipleship. And I'm really excited to have

your voice in this space just because you have a very

unique set of experiences. Of course, over your life

as one of thirteen children, but also as a pastor

who has a long tenure of faithfulness and service. So since you've spent decades

pastoring churches and engaging with culture through

writing and public conversations, how have those experiences shaped

the way you see people today? Well, Chris, I have a lot of

years being a pastor. My father was a

pastor before me, so I grew up in a pastor's

home and I have about five or six brothers now

that are either pastors or retired pastors. When we had family reunions, we used to sign a book of

the Bible to talk about. And so at the table

and in our discussion, we'd start on one

John and talk about what the meaning was for us. And it was really, it's been

a great way to spend my life. Journalism added a new

dimension to it. You know. I wrote my first

stories after I'd already been writing

books and articles and thought I was pretty good. And the city desk would

send my stories back all scratched up. Mean, everywhere. I remember the

first story I wrote, the copy desk came

over and said, You buried your It's in the

thirteenth paragraph. I had a journalism degree and I

thought I was doing this right. So the idea of writing

for a newspaper ended up being very important

in my own development in the use of language. And I try not to bury

the lead anymore, even when I'm preaching. Make sure that pretty well

people know what's up when I start a message, and

that's important to me. And then just speaking

in plain English, that was something they

wanted me to do as a reporter. So they wanted subject

verbs, short sentences, short paragraphs. And I employed that simplified

way of communicating as a pastor. So I had many professors in

my church when I was in New Orleans because New Orleans

Baptist Seminary is right there and they would come to church. And, I just told them

upfront, you know, I'm trying to reach your

twelve year old when I preach. And I've kind of

kept that idea in my brain that if the

twelve year old can understand me, probably the professor can

too and other people in the congregation as well. Yeah, so keep it simple. Well, there Yeah. You've mentioned journalism. Was there a specific

moment, story, or crisis that really changed how

you approach ministry or preaching? There were a lot of stories. One of the things that happened

to me was I was a general assignments reporter

for the city desk, so I was involved in a

gubernatorial election and I ended up interviewing three

of the six gubernatorial candidates in the state of

Louisiana and writing stories about what they told me. And I found them to be

pretty much regular people. And in my years as a journalist,

that was reinforced with university presidents

and other politicians, U. S. Senators, U. S. Representatives, people

that I interacted with as a reporter, came

away thinking, you know, everybody's a regular person. Everybody needs a pastor,

no matter who they are. Sometimes if they

found out I was a pastor, it changed the way

that they would talk to me. I grew, I guess, to understand that

no matter who the person was in my church, I had a

couple of billionaires as members while I

was in the ministry. I could treat them as regular

people because they needed pastors too. That's good. Do you think pastors sometimes

misunderstand about the communities that

they're trying to reach? You mentioned that you had

billionaires and other people and that angle of everybody's

a person that needs Jesus. What do you think other pastors

might miss or misunderstand? Well, we want to be, as pastors, available and interacting

with people of all economic levels,

whoever they are. There's a lot of people who are

invisible in every community. I would emphasize that

to what talking about. We develop paths as pastors that are familiar to

us, maybe daily paths. We drive the same way to

church from the house, and the same way back. And we need to change that if we're

going to know our communities. We need to develop patterns of going

off the beaten path to areas of our community

and people in our community that we don't normally see. I think compassion

ministries take us there. It's a way for us to

introduce our congregation to people in the community that

may be invisible to them. Like a compassion ministry,

like a food bank or food pantry or some service. Yeah. So New Orleans is quite a

different city from where you are in Gulthwaite. How do you find the invisible

people or the new paths? How did you find them in New

Orleans versus how you find them now in Central

Texas Hill Country? Well, in New Orleans, we did a whole

range of ministries. We had ministries to

the kids in the schools. At one point, we were

preparing three hundred backpacks of food for kids on the weekend

in seven different schools. We were encouraging our people

to be tutors in those public schools in New Orleans,

as well as private, wherever we were needed. We were doing events on the

campuses, public schools. We were doing events

in the public parks. There were parks there

that when Katrina came, we went there and cleaned up those parks

and used volunteers to remove trash and

mow the spaces and prepare those parks for the people

that lived in the community. We became connected in

important ways to populations that really didn't

come to First Baptist but that were part

of our community. And some of them did

start coming to our church site, to the location, but many of them

would come to the discipleship and worship events

that we created at the park itself. So in New Orleans, it

was dancers on Bourbon Street. We had a ministry that did weekly visits to

the clubs on Bourbon Street and elsewhere, just dialoguing with people who

were part of that world, finding out what

needs they might have. There were a lot of things

we did here in Goldthwaite. It's a completely

different world, Chris, I can guarantee you. There's no Bourbon

Street in Goldthwaite. There really isn't. There's great need

and there may be things going on here that

I'm sure I don't know about. Well, I wonder the difference

between in a small town like Gulthwaite, you definitely

still have the sin issue, but there's more of an

isolation versus in New Orleans, it seems like people are open

and free with whatever they wanna do and however

they wanna live. I wonder how, what have

you seen or what have you thought about in getting

people out of those hiding places in Goldthwaite

in a meaningful way? Well, we do food ministry here

just like we did it in New Orleans. There is poverty

in rural America, just like there

is in New Orleans. And in fact, it's fairly

extensive in mid America. People who live week to

week on paychecks who, if a disaster comes, they don't have a

fund to draw from. So we are on the major highway that comes through

Gulthwaite and we are frequently helping people

who have broken down, their cars have

quit or whatever. And they come to our

church just like happened in New Orleans. So we have a developing

ministry of food distribution. I've talked to two

people this week, initiated a

conversation with them. They didn't come to me. I went to them and

had reason to believe. Someone told me. In one case, I'd

never met the person, but I went to have a

conversation with him about his ability to buy the

food that he needed. And that led into a very

interesting conversation with a guy who has never

been to church, but he's lived

here all his life. He knew a few people

that I know because I graduated from a high school

fifteen miles from where I'm sitting right now. I lived in this community for

a year and a half and then went off to college. So there are areas of

our community where sometimes I'll drive through,

I'll make just a random visit, find out who's living there. I'm trying to pay attention

when I go to the stores, commercial enterprises,

just who's there. When you go to a medical clinic, everybody comes to

the clinic in the And so I try to have conversations

with people sitting in the waiting rooms and find out

who they are and why they're here, where they live. I'm a curious person anyway. So I got introduced to Zia, a little six month old

baby in the security line at New Orleans airport. I was in New Orleans on Tuesday. So it was interesting

to meet that little family and see Zia. Kids are very curious. They are. The human creature is curious. From the cradle to the grave, loud noises make

us turn our heads and fancy colors

catch our attention. So you've spent years

listening to people's stories, I'm sure in your interactions

as you travel and then as a journalist and as a pastor, what have you learned about

what people are really searching for

beneath the surface? Well, I think that

pastors need to realize that stories are important and that your stories,

both personal and borrowed, have a power to

connect with people. And sometimes I'll

meet members of my churches previously who mentioned the

stories that I told. But I work on telling stories

because that's what Jesus did for one thing. His stories are probably

the most famous part of his teachings, or at least

they rank right up there. We can all think of the

prodigal son and the good Samaritan and the lost

coin and the lost sheep. And knowing and learning

how to tell a story is an important

part of preaching, of the craft of preaching. If you leave it out, you sound more like a professor

than you do like a pastor. If you don't have any stories, maybe you need to get out of

your office and start walking down the street and meeting

some people and having conversations with them,

would be my thought. But most pastors have

stories that they can tell, and I think it's an

important aspect of our our preaching to tell those stories because we don't know

how they're going to connect to people in the pew,

but they really do. And if I am careful telling my

stories and consistent with it, I am saying something every Sunday

that people are going to remember. It probably won't be

the text of my message, the theological ideas that

I present in the Yeah. How did your journalism

degree help contribute to your ability to pass through more effectively? Because it sounds

like, you know, some people maybe are naturally

drawn to people and they can have a conversation

with anybody. But was there anything

specific about being a journalist that helped

you to listen like a journalist? Well, I do pay attention to

who, what, where, and why now. After a few stories, as a reporter, you discover the

copy desk wants the name spelled correctly. So I've become pretty tuned

into the who, what, where and why of people

and their journeys and what they wanna

share with me. So attention to detail and who

they are, where they came from. Yeah, it's pretty

important to remember the troubles that people have

shared with you and to be able to ask later on about how

is that son of yours doing. My memory is not as

good as it used to be, so I have to write things down. I have little sticky

notes everywhere, but one of the places I have them

is on the mirror in my bathroom. And Sunday morning, while

I'm brushing my teeth, I'm going over names and

trying to remember those folks, who they are and their

stories, what I know of them, how they're connected, what

they've shared with me. That's great. Well, so it sounds like as

a journalist and the bridge between being pastor is a

journalist would collect a lot of facts and then share those

and then move on to what's next. But as a pastor now, you're

caring, praying for What does genuine empathy look

like in pastoral ministry? And I'm gonna add a caveat without

compromising biblical conviction. So you're remembering

all these people, you're praying for them, but

then how do you empathize with the people on Bourbon Street

and the people in the corners of Gothwaite without

compromising? How have you done

it over the years? Well, the first time I went into a cell block and I've

been there many times, but the first time I went in

to be locked in by myself in a cell block, was-

Being arrested, right? Yeah, convicted criminal. I was there to kind of share

with those prisoners and find out if they were

interested in conversation. And when that door

slammed behind me, I looked at the room I was

in and there are these great big people lifting these weights and

they were all muscled up and tattooed, you know, and

they did not look like me. And I thought, oh my goodness,

what is going to happen to me? I don't know who these people

are or what's going on with them. It was just like being

in a surreal world. And I really thought

to myself, this is a place I don't fit at all. I don't know who

these people are. And I walked through this

exercise room that was the first room in

that cell block. And I stuck my head into the

area where all the bunks were in rows. And I was looking around trying

to see who was there when I hear this guy say,

Pastor Crosby. And I look up on the second

block, a bunk of a row, and here's a fellow that I

recognize from a church I pastored years ago. And he came in and

reintroduced himself. I knew him when he was twelve

and he remembered me. Wow. He was in for a long stint

for armed robbery. But I left there thinking, I guess I really do know these people who have passed through our churches. They are really not

different than me. That's a good one. So how can you navigate

different communities like that, different places of ministry without making

assumptions about people? Sounds like something

changed there. Yeah, I think you gotta stop

making assumptions about people. I had a homeless woman

who came to the church and they came to get me there

in New Orleans right after Hurricane Katrina and I had

helped so many homeless people and hurting people and people

came to church looking for a handout that I'd quit

taking my wallet to church because I was broke every

Sunday when I went home, I'd given all my money away. And so they told me she wanted

to see me and I fell from my wallet and realized I'd left it. I was a little relieved. I went out there and they

introduced me to a woman named Annie who was dressed

in the clothing that you'd get at a Goodwill

store or maybe at Rescue Mission. Nothing really fit her. And I assumed that she had a

guy in a car outside the church. I assumed that she was homeless

and living on the street, made lots of assumptions

about this woman. But God impressed on me that I

needed to help her if I could. So she wanted a place to stay

and we called the rescue mission. They said, We know Annie. She's stayed too many times, but we'll take her one

more if you want us to. So I sent her to the

rescue mission that day and she came back

to church and we started helping her in

all kinds of ways. And she started pulling people

into her orbit, you know. And she fell in the aisle

one Sunday morning and a physician in the church

helped Annie out. We started calling

her Raggedy Annie. I hate to say that, but she was always dressed in these

borrowed clothes that didn't fit. And found out through my

assistant whom I sent with Annie to the doctor

on her next visit, that Annie had terminal cancer. And, she said to us

shortly thereafter, I would need somebody to

help me clean out my house. And I said, you have a house? I just couldn't believe

she had a house, But what she had was

a fourplex that had no utilities, no water,

no electricity, had been sort of cleaned out, but she'd been living on the

second floor when it wasn't too hot or too cold. So the crew went over there to

clean up our house and the guy that was heading that crew,

clean up Andy's house, came to my office that

afternoon and brought a big sign about as big as

my desk that said, Anne Thompson for Governor. Wow. And I said, Is this

Annie on this sign? He says, It is. Anne Thompson had

a PhD from Tulane, had taught in several of the

universities there in the area, had got just wiped out by Hurricane Katrina, had lost the ability

to think from A to B. And that's who

Raggedy Annie was. Man, so you never know

where people come from. Everybody's got a story. I saw a t shirt here recently, Be Kind because

everybody's got a story of hurt and pain

that you don't know. Wow, that's amazing. What ended up

happening with Annie? Annie, we put her

in an apartment on the sixth floor of an

apartment building, got her a hospital

bed to lay in. She died of her cancer. She was able to look over

the fairgrounds there in New Orleans, the window where

she wanted that bed to be. And the last time I saw

her, she said, You know, I don't want to die,

but I'm ready to die. I have peace with God. And she was trusting in Christ. We had the funeral

at church and we had several people that came

who knew her professionally. But at that point, New Orleans was still a chaos of unfinished projects,

disoriented people. Yeah. So it was mostly our church

that showed up at her funeral and mourned her passing. So it sounds like you took the

time really to connect with her, even though you didn't know

where she came from and eventually learned it. But as a pastor, what

are some signs that maybe the church is talking

at people instead of truly connecting with them? Well, I think we have to enter

into dialogue with people. I think that's true in rural

America where the town is small and your neighbors are

not overwhelmingly, you know, many in numbers. Just have to, we run into the same

people over and over again in our space now. I was anonymous in

much of New Orleans. If I'd go to a restaurant,

nobody knew who I was. The anonymity of the city

is part of what you have to embrace when you live

in a big urban area. But, you know, I

think you've got to be authentic yourself. I think people are looking

for authenticity in ministers. You can tell stories that

help people know who you are, know your weaknesses,

as well as your strengths, your failures, as well

as your successes. What do you think helps people

trust a pastor or a church today? Is it authenticity?

Is it more than that? I think getting to know them. I think they trust you

as you interact with them in the auditorium, at their pew, as you remember

and learn their names. I mean, this is

small town America, so I have two hundred

people at church, you know, Sunday instead of

thousands like some pastors do. Well, and you

mentioned, you know, being in hurricane

Katrina in New Orleans, I remember a friend of mine got

married there and they did not reschedule their

wedding, but it was, I felt like it was

a year afterwards. And going down there, it

still looked like a war zone. There were sides of buildings

gone, cars upside down, where they would

paint on the house, the number of survivors or the

number of not survivors that they found in there. It all felt very, like

you said, chaotic. Can pastors, since you've led

through a difficult time like that, how could other pastors lead

people compassionately through fear, conflict and uncertainty? Well, I think in disaster, it's very important that you

live moment by moment and day by day. It's very hard to plan, for the future in a disaster. It's something new every time. Every time you go to the church, every time the phone rings, it's just something different, something you didn't

expect or anticipate. So I think part of what

happens when disaster strikes in your community is

that you have to slow down for a minute and just handle the daily things that

are coming at you. And if you are mobilizing,

you are mobilizing first just to relieve people

of the pain and hurt and the trouble that they're in. So there are stages, you know? But we were ourselves

in the disaster. Both my daughters

lost their homes in Hurricane Katrina.

We didn't lose ours. We had the flood come

right up to our threshold, but it didn't come

into our house. Wow. Eighty percent of the houses

in our neighborhood flooded, but ours was one of

those that was spared. So we had over two hundred

people stay with us post Katrina in probably that

first or second year. Some of them were

volunteers and crew members. Some of them were folks out of

the church who lost their homes. Responding to crisis

is a moment by moment thing, as that's

how I experienced it. I mean, we tried to do

planning in those early days, nothing we planned happened. So moving on to a different

sort of crisis that I think is happening in America today

related to division and outrage and skepticism. How can people communicate or

how can pastors communicate truth in a way that

people are willing to hear when they're in

those situations? So first, do you

think it's similar to disaster recovery or a different approach? Well, my approach is

to focus every message in some way on Jesus. Jesus is popular with everybody. I may not be, but Jesus

is popular with everybody. And I want people to know Jesus

because he is the way, the truth, the life. And so I am seeking

to unfold the personal work of Christ in every message, whether I'm in Proverbs or

Psalms or Genesis or Mark or the epistles, to give them the words

that Jesus spoke, to introduce Jesus to

them in different ways as you present the text of

Scripture and to end with an invitation for them to enter

into a relationship with Jesus or to deepen that relationship, to call them to follow

him and walk with him and to follow his instructions

and the truths which he unfolds and the

challenges that he gives to us in living our own lives. So I think Jesus is the keystone for every church. He is the foundation. He's the one

beginning and the end. Amen. Keep teaching Jesus. If you're walking with Jesus, Jesus looked at this young

ruler that came to him, and Mark says he loved him. That's what Mark records about the

first encounter Jesus has with this guy. Jesus looked at

him and loved him. That's great. I'm praying that I can

do that with people, that I can love them

when I meet them, and that I express express

that love by not being focused on myself or fulfilling

the need in me to tell them something, but I can

express that love by listening to them, hearing them, maybe picking

up on the anxiety in their life and responding in a compassionate way

to what I'm hearing. I think that's probably the way

that Jesus would have us do it. Yeah, I agree. From a functional standpoint, how has your understanding

of preaching changed over the years or has it? I'm still pretty much

an expository preacher. I take a text and

walk through it. I think the story today, as an older preacher, I'm even more convinced that

the stories are important, that the illustrations

are important, and that we need to

follow Jesus and how he preached and

presented his message. So I encourage young preachers, and we have young

preachers on the staff, encourage them to learn

how to tell stories, how to tell a story

inside out or upside down where you are not, revealing the punchline, where there's surprise

in the narrative, where you are describing

experiences that people have and using those to

illustrate the truth that you want to share. So I plan my preaching and I

think that has helped me. How far out do you

plan your messages? Well, right now

I'm planned through July and basically through

August because I've got an associate who does a good

bit of the preaching too. And so I know where I'm

headed on each one of those Sundays, and it helps

me to have a text that is self assigned, you know? It's like, okay, I'm gonna

preach on Psalm one on June seven, Psalm two on

June fourteenth, Psalm three. So I've got a plan

for those months, and then I'm going to focus

on Jesus in the Psalms, and I'm going to focus on the

literary device of parallelism to help people see

how often it occurs in Hebrew literature and

what its advantage is in understanding the Psalm

and in sharing its truth. As C. S. Lewis' comments in his

Reflections on the Psalms, parallelism is a unique

feature of Hebrew poetry that is not

lost in translation to English or any other

language in the world. Yeah. It's a way of saying

the same thing twice or saying it in a different way. Or as C. S. Lewis says,

doing a two step dance. That's a good text,

Diane, right there. So you take that parallelism

as a way of learning the truth that the

writer's communicating. And he observes that Jesus was

soaked in this parallelism, which I think is such an

important and insightful thing. If you read Jesus thinking

about parallelism, you realize, hey, he's saying that

here in place, judge not, you be not judged. With the judgment you

render, you'll be judged. And with a measure by

which you measure others, you will be measured too. So that's I've got to shorten. I more wordy as I get old

and I need to not do that. And I need to not be

always telling my own story because that's what old people do often. Tell their own stories. My wife gets on

to me for telling the same story over and over

again, but I don't know. That's how we got here. I guess that's a role that

wives play in our lives. They remind us how

often we tell the story. Well, you mentioned, so

in telling stories, you gotta be a good listener. So what are some practical ways

that pastors can become better listeners in everyday ministry? I think we can develop

some questions to ask. How are you doing today? What's a good journalism question

that brings out some story? Tell me about how you

got to this place, you know, to really understand

what somebody's saying. Maybe it's helpful to get a

little narrative from them about their own journey. If they can start talking

about their journey, you will learn more about

how the insights of the Gospel can meet

them where they are. Yeah. So a lot of it's just

letting them talk. And after they've talked, responding with things that the

Holy Spirit maybe is bringing to your mind as they talk. Yeah. I think it's important for

us to listen to our people. That's good. Well, if a pastor wanted to better

understand their community this month, where should they start? You might wanna start driving

the streets, you know, driving the streets

on your feet. Alright, just driving

looking around. Yeah, kinda doing a little tour. Maybe walking down

to the town square, which is what we have here

and just walking around seeing who you meet and maybe going

into some of the stores, meeting folks that

you hadn't met before. Hey, I'm the pastor down at

the church, I've done this. If you need anything in your business

that I can help with, let me know. Or talking to the fire

chief or the mayor or the city manager, talking to folks who are in

your church about how can I help you in your work? Is there a place that

you'd like me to show up as a pastor? They may have employees or

folks that they work with. I've had that happen. I've given call to people

who are just coworkers, that members have said,

Why don't you call him? He's having a hard time. But responding to

those requests. Yeah. You know, that may be a

little difficult for us to do. It's sort of like a cold call. Hey, my name's David Crosby and

I know a colleague of yours, But I just wanted to let

you know that I'm new to the community and I'm pastor

down at First Baptist. So if you need me for something, I'd be delighted if

you'd call on me. Does that context

translate from New Orleans, the big city to

Gulthwaite, the small town? For sure. Yeah, if you make yourself

available in the city, you will get many invitations. People are interested in what's

happening in your churches. In fact, I served with three police chiefs in New

Orleans on their clergy advisory committee, And

they had half a dozen pastors who they would

take out to eat for lunch every month

or two and just say to them, how are the police, how's the police force doing

in your faith community? How's our reputation? What

are we doing wrong? You know? And that's an amazing eye

opener to hear from those black pastors about how the police force is doing in

their community, know, what their reputation is,

what are your people saying. It's an eye opener to

hear from the different pastors and different groups of

people Yeah, the people groups. How they're doing

in the community. That was the most

interesting thing, one of the most interesting

things I did as a pastor in New Orleans. So staying connected, being in touch with all the

different people groups, civic organizations, public. I remember showing up

at a meeting that, for an organization that was trying

to minister to battered women. And this was in New Orleans. Of course, it's

heavily Catholic. I met people who had never met

a Baptist before, they said. I showed up at this meeting

and the lady says, Well, now who are you? And I said, I'm David Crosby, the pastor of First Baptist

Church in New Orleans. She said, Baptist, I'm

so glad you're here. Most of our clients

are Baptists. That wasn't really

good news to me. That's what she thought

of, and I don't think, I think it was just

a spontaneous remark. I don't think she

was trying to be But I suppose it must

have been true. Maybe most of her women clients really

were Baptists. Yikes. Wow. Well, David, as we get a

little closer to a close, what gives you hope

about the church today? What gives me hope? Yes, sir. Well, I am full of hope

because of Jesus, our lord, who is in charge of the future. I don't know what the future

holds but I know he holds the future and I'm very relieved

by that kind of worn cliche. But it's definitely true. The Church of Jesus

Christ is vibrant in many places in the world, including

many places in our own country. And there are many people who are

looking for spiritual solutions. It's not the way it used to be. Our churches are not the social

centers that they were fifty years ago in rural

America included. Many other things are

taking up that space. But there is great

need for community, for people who are willing

to open their circle and let strangers in. And there are people

looking for a place. So I think the koinonia of

the church is very important and that it is an opportunity

for us if we are willing to be open to other people, maybe people unlike

ourselves even, they will join the

circle if we let them. They'll come in and they may

come in as pre Christian, you know, not really believing yet, but

curious about who we are. I preach as if I am

preaching to at least some secularists, atheists,

people who don't have answers, people who are

looking for answers, people who are confused. And I think when I do that, I address the true

heart condition of more people than we realize. Sure. I think you're right. Yeah. Well, as we close today, what's one thing you hope

pastors remember when they think about reaching

people today? That those people need to be loved

and they need to see the practical action of love in the

Church of Jesus Christ. If we're going to be known

as followers of Jesus by our love, that's got

to be on the front. And I don't think we can leave

that just to the personal preference of the

person in the pew. I think we need to somehow

work the love of people into the church calendar,

the church budget, the church staff, the

church organism and organization so

that it's not some afterthought or we just

hope that gets done. That's great. So it sounds like a church that

goes beyond the Sunday that is more about connecting

people to friendship and extending the love of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. We've got T shirts around here that

say the church has left the building. That's great. Send

me one of those. Yeah. Well, thank you so much

for your time today. It's been insightful talking

to you and hearing your heart. And I, as a pastor's son, I'm encouraged that your

father led your family so well, that you're leading

your family well, and that you are continuing

in faithful ministry. So thank you for what you do. Thank you for the Lord and

thank you for joining us today on this webinar. Alright. Thanks, Chris.

Enjoyed being with you. Y'all have a good one. Alright.