Everything You Were Told About Money Was a Lie

But it made me start to question the system and I kind of just felt like the entire system was broken and I didn't really know why. When I'm thinking of the math and I'm thinking of the measurement, I'm not thinking of well if I buy that, how much fiat [music] dollars does it take? I buy I look at that and say how much Bitcoin is that going to cost me both in what I might have to pay and what I could have had [music] had I not bought it. And I think that's the really the focus. the best way will always be self-custody and that sovereignty choice [music] of nobody gets to say what I do with this but me. Bitcoin allowed me to kind of step back and say I don't have to have that active role. I could just work on me. I can do it for me and Bitcoin is [music] fighting the world all on its own. Quick favor. If you're serious about understanding Bitcoin and building a better future, hit the subscribe button below. I release two deep dive Bitcoin conversations every week without hype or shilling. Thanks for being here today. I'm excited to welcome Thunder to the podcast. Thunder is a Bitcoin advocate who says that after discovering Bitcoin, he realized he no longer had to take on the world alone. Welcome to the Bitcoin Edge, Thunder. >> Thank you for having me. I am excited to be here. >> Yeah, we've been trying to make this happen and I've been hearing you on spaces and I've been enjoying your message. So, I wanted to start right with tell us why you felt you had to take on the world before Bitcoin. >> I very quickly in my adulthood fell into the libertarian camp. So, I recognized there were massive problems because I just didn't really agree with anything. you know, everything was supposed to be, you know, this biparty system where you're either on this team or you're on that team. Are you red or are you blue? Are you Democrat or you Republican? And I found myself with my own logic of things that I grew up with naturally arguing with both. And it helps that I was a little bit argumentative and I like to question absolutely everything. My dad always said I became a libertarian because they get to argue with everybody. And [laughter] uh but it made me start to question the system and I kind of just felt like the entire system was broken and I didn't really know why. And so I was fighting the Democrats. I was fighting the Republicans. I'm fighting all of these people. I became closer and closer to that anarchy spectrum where I just, you know, eventually got to the point where I was just like, you know what, all government is bad and the system sucks and you there's not a lot of us out there who believe that. And so it just kind of felt like me fighting the world and all of the egos that come along with protecting what they always just accepted to be truth. And that's a hard thing to break through. And there was no way for me to escape it. There's no way for me to get out of it. I, you know, every cycle there's another president and I'm upholding to whatever they believe is the way it should be, whether I agree with it or not. and there wasn't an opt- out option. And then I found I discovered Bitcoin and realized this allows me to escape that and they can have their mess. They can have their bickering back and forth of pretending that they are opposite creatures trying to save the world when really they're just the same bird trying to eat it all. So, Bitcoin allowed me to kind of step back and say, I don't have to have that active role. I can just work on me. I can do it for me. And Bitcoin is fighting the world all on its own. >> I love that. You talked about an ego death and many people experienced that before they truly understand Bitcoin. What did that look like for you? >> I first experienced that ego death with realizing that I didn't know how that political system worked. I can thank a friend for that because I was starting to get into that libertarian thing and and I always wanted to argue whatever I thought was right with whatever I could possibly come up with. And I had a friend that was able to give me something that I just couldn't argue back. And it made me look incredibly stupid. It made me look dumb. And and it was I was early in my 20s and I was embarrassed in front of everybody. I was embarrassed in front of my wife. I was embarrassed in front of my kids. I was embarrassed in front of my friends. And that just it crushed me. So I decided, you know what? I'm not going to be wrong anymore. I need to learn so that I can be right and I can win these debates. And then the more I learned, the less it became about being right for the sake of winning and just learning what actually was right because it made my life better. And that was that first ego death experience. That's when I started like really transitioning toward, you know, away from libertarianism and into more of an anarchist mindset, you know, not the burn it all down, you know, and just topple the system, just the opt out and do my own thing and say there's nothing that you can do in that voting box that's going to make a difference. So, I'll just work for what I can in whatever capacity. And that was my first kind of death of my ego is letting go of that pride that I don't know what the heck was going on. There was a lot of stuff that I didn't even consider because I was just going off of things that I had always believed, you know, and then that was kind of that wakeup call. So, I think it made it a little bit easier for me to accept Bitcoin once I finally did. But even then, I heard about Bitcoin like 2014, 2015, and my first thought was, "Yeah, that's not going to work. They're going to make that illegal. They're going to shut that down. All those people are going to jail, you know, and they had all the narrative that, you know, Bitcoin is for criminals and it's for drugs and all. And I bought it. Hook, line, and sinker. I didn't even bother to look into it until, you know, early in 2022. I had a friend that sent me a interview of Michael Sailor with Lex Freedman. It's a 4hour long interview. And the first three hours, he didn't even talk about Bitcoin. He was just talking about what was wrong. And I'm like, "Yes, yes, this is this is what I've been saying all this time. There's there's other people. There's other people who get this." And then he got to the Bitcoin and I'm like, "Oh, that makes sense." I didn't know that's what Bitcoin was. I didn't even give it the chance. I really didn't. I I just heard, you know, these people were trying to make money on the internet and that was outside of the system trying to make their own currency. Like the government doesn't want people to make their own currency. Like you can in a small, you know, tokenized like this is our coupon. You know, you can go to uh an arcade and have your own currency that only works in the arcade machines, stuff like that. You can't have a global currency, right? That's illegal. You're competing with the government. And so I just I just didn't even give it a shot. And then that finally kind of cracked it. And I had my second ego death in that moment of all the stuff that I previously thought that kept me away from it and then somebody just reaffirming all the things that I knew for sure were wrong and then tying it together with that at the end. I was like, "Oh, wow. I was an idiot all these years." And I don't regret it though. I don't regret a lot of people look at it and say, "Oh, I could be so rich. I forgot." I don't care. I I'm not not about the getting rich part. I would have done something stupid with it. I would have got it not known what I had. I you know it would have gone up by you know a 2x 3x and I would have been like oh look at all the fiat I made and I would have sold it right there. So you know I got in when I was ready for it. I got Bitcoin when I was ready to understand it. And so that that was kind of my journey. >> That's a great a great journey. You were orange pearled by sailor. And what are your thoughts now on having Bitcoin in self custody verse having it say buying micro strategy strategy or having it in the treasury companies? >> I think it depends on who you are. Uh a lot of people are opposed to it. I really don't think Sailor's trying to work in a upfront public sphere. It's a publicly traded company and he has to work within those confines. And if you have stuff in those confines, sometimes the laws prevent certain entities or groups from having Bitcoin. All right, they can't own it directly. Some of them can't even own like an ETF, right? There there are funds out there be like, hey, you know, this is my retirement fund. Can I, you know, can I get this Black Rockck ETF, you know, this Bitcoin ETF? Oh, no. You can't you can't do ETFs on gold, not on Bitcoin, not on nothing. Like, well, what's the point having a retirement account if I can't control it? Oh, wait. It's not my money, is it? It's somebody else's. then they get to give me permission. So if there are entities in there and I think that's why he created a lot of that stuff is it was for people who would never accept Bitcoin because of where they were in life but they kind of liked the sound of it but they just they can't to them they don't care to learn and they don't want to deal with the volatility or you know maybe they do and they just want to play games on it like the traders with MSDR stock. You want to gamble on it? You want to gamble your longs and your shorts you go right ahead. that's there for you, you know, and why not let some of that funnel into Bitcoin? That just strengthens the floor of Bitcoin, you know, the the uh the basis for the value of what it is compared to all the goods and services. So, I don't necessarily have a problem with it. But if you want to be protected, that's not the way to go. the the best way will always be self-custody and that sovereignty choice of nobody gets to say what I do with this but me. So, I'm kind of in the middle on that one. I I don't hate it, but I'm not, you know, out there screaming everybody needs this, you know, cuz you don't need it if you can understand Bitcoin. But if the law is preventing you from it or if your own ego is preventing you from it, but you like the idea of making a little bit off of it, then you know, hey, that's just that's more fuel for the Bitcoin fire. >> Holding your Bitcoin in self-custody [music] is an important step towards self-s sovereignty, but writing your seed phrase on paper is risky. Paper can burn, fade, or get lost. Micro Seed helps you stamp your seed phrase onto a small steel washer. Buy the device once and use it forever. I love it. It's durable, precise, [music] and easy to transport. Use my link below for 5% off. Now, back to the show. Yeah, I agree. I like to think of it like Michael Sailor is doing exactly what's best for his business. And yes, it's a public company, so people can buy that. And like you mentioned, not everybody has access to other Bitcoin or even understands it well enough. But for those who do, having it in self custody is what Bitcoin really is about. But he brings a lot of people in. And you know, I'm grateful for that. And some people go deeper down the rabbit hole and find self-custody. And that would be my hope. >> Yeah. The one thing that makes me okay with it the most is that no matter what products he comes out with, he always says you should buy Bitcoin. >> But you should buy Bitcoin. >> But I also have these other things if that's what you're looking for that doesn't quite fit the just Bitcoin, >> right? Some people want a return on their investment. They want the dividend and you know 10%, you know, 11% is okay with them. So hey, I've got this preferred that, you know, dividend stock that you can have. And what do you get in exchange for that? Well, we'll just take out the volatility, but in exchange for that, we'll take a lot more off the top. So, the gains could have been higher, but you got gains all the time and didn't have to wait till the next, you know, you're above that buyin price. So, that's it. It it does pervade something and it kind of creates a gateway for some people who might, you know, hear of this in the Trady section and they go, "Wow, this is really great. How does he do this? How does he make this happen? And they get to looking at it and at first it seems like this crazy, you know, scheme that shouldn't work. Well, why why doesn't why does why does it work? It shouldn't work. It wouldn't work anywhere else. Why does it work for him? Well, you don't understand the fundamentals of Bitcoin. Okay. Well, I'll figure out the fundamentals of Bitcoin. Oh, maybe I should get some Bitcoin and get into self-custody. So, he's also creating that gateway, too. So, it's it's going to it's going to has a dual purpose there and and I have a little bit of their MSTR stock just as a means of like I agree with what he's doing. You know, I I don't necessarily want to throw all my money in it or even the majority of it. It's a small fraction of what I have in comparison to Bitcoin. You know, it doesn't even measure on the scale. But, it's just my way of saying, yeah, I think it's I think it's a good thing. Well, we should have lots of different ways that the world interacts with Bitcoin. >> Talking about free markets, you have mentioned to me that people misunderstand capitalism and free markets. Tell us why you say that. >> So, capitalism is a system that is based off of a free market. So, free market is its fundamental principle, but we've never had one. We've never had one. We can listen to Jeff Booth and most people would agree with him. You know, in a free market, the prices of everything continue to fall. Wages even continue to fall, which isn't a bad thing because as it falls, you're able to buy more with that same, you know, with that less quantity of money. And that's what money is about is what you can do with it. And so, if you can do more with less in the future, then you're still moving up, you know, even though you're you're counting the units themselves and they might be going down. if I take, you know, quit this job and I go to this other job and they're not going to pay me as much. And, you know, people are going to cycle in and out for a while until they, you know, find things on a free market system, you know, way to balance that out and slowly decrease that cuz like he said, wages are sticky. So, they have to do something with it. And that's what that's all about. But a free market's more than that. A free market is the access, right? If you have people who aren't allowed to have access, you know, even the the country, you know, people saying that, well, in the beginning it was a free market really cuz women didn't have access to that free market. Slaves didn't have access to that free market. And they weren't there by choice. It's not like, you know, they were in debt and they're like, "Oh, hey America. Uh, I'll be your slave. Uh, somebody slave for a while if they pay off my debts and then I'll be a free man." That's not how that worked. You know, that that's that biblical slavery, you know, that the Bible, you know, and I'm not really religious, but, you know, I grew up that way. So, you know, I remember a lot of that stuff and that's what that was about. Hey, I have all these debts. I can't manage it. I've been irresponsible. I don't know what to do. I can go to somebody else and say, "I'll be your slave for a while. You pay off my debts. I work off my debt to you through work. And then I'm back to being free again." And that wasn't that system. And that's not a free market. So, it never really was. And we've gotten closer to it in some ways, but the closer we get to it by people being free, the more other regulations come about just on everybody in general. So, we've never even though we freed the slaves, we've given women the rights to interact and to own property and to engage with the free market and all this other stuff, the regulation has been increasing the entire time, meaning they can't break through those markets because they have to meet certain qualifications. Well, how are fresh generations of now free people supposed to break into those barriers from nothing when you have to have something in the first place? And you know, the women, the only women that got to break into that market were the women who their husbands had something and maybe their husband passed away. And well, now you're allowed to own that. You don't have to give, you know, let your father or brother or something be the steward of your husband's wealth. you can now be the steward of that wealth and you can interact with the market. But if you never had anything, how do you build up in that market? Because every single regulation on a company is another barrier to entry because a smaller company comes in and goes, I I don't I can't afford that. And you know, you look at all the uh rules that have come out on businesses since Walmart began. Millions of laws have come out with regulations that they didn't have to they they made their money before those laws were a thing. And now everyone else has to to start with all of those restrictions that Walmart never had and they can't keep up with that. And so now they have this huge barrier to entry into that free market in order to even consider it a free market in the first place. But that's where Bitcoin kind of brings it back to the first free market that's ever really existed. Not I mean outside of you and I trading for something and nobody can say what our value of whatever we're trading is worth. So but on any kind of scale. So that that's why I say there's a lot of misconceptions around that because people call capitalism capitalism but capitalism is based on free market. And if nobody's ever been free to access that free market, it was never capitalism. It was always a crony system. It mimicked capitalism. That's what it did. But that's nothing but but the bastardization of capitalism in and of itself. So that's not what it is. And capitalism is kind of like that. It's became the moniker of evil. And it's not. It's a free market. It's just a system that says, "Hey, you know, we're going to protect our people and the people are free. you know, outside of the world, we don't really care. But in our system, we're going to protect our people and they will spend what they think is fair and either that's successful or it isn't, you know, and that would be a capitalist system and that could exist in tithe, but it would take a lot of work to get there. Yeah, those are some interesting points that I hadn't thought of because you know when Jeff Boo says the natural state of the free market is deflation and we've never had a free market, I always think it's never been a free market because it's a debt based system. And a debt-based system cannot be a free market because we keep printing more money. But also all those regulations that you mentioned also cause it not to be a free market. >> Mhm. And and you're right, the the money having control over the money completely disqualifies it of being a free market. So before 1913 when they were printing, you know, because you can have it for a time, right? You know, even before 1913 when the Federal Reserve was established, they would have periods of conflict of war and they would issue bonds, right? Okay. And that's a debt based system. Um, you give us money, we owe you, and we'll find a way to get it back through taxes. And but it was temporary. If they kept that going, it collapsed. And so they knew it was temporary. And and so even then, it still gave closer to a free market systems. Okay, we're going to suspend that quote unquote free market. But the fact that they could control it in the first place indicated that it wasn't really a free market because they they could impact gold during that because of the control they had over gold because they could hold it. They could say, "Hey, turn in your gold. We need it. We'll give you these bonds in exchange." Right? And your choice is do it or we're going to come and take it. And they could still try to do that with Bitcoin. But if you arrest me and the numbers are in my head and I just say no and enough of us are doing it, what are you going to do? You know, you might have some code that they have to decipher in order to get your keys so that you don't, you know, get in an accident and get amnesia and forget, right? But you have it locked in a code and you know, you know how your brain works and you'll be able to figure that out. Whatever the rabbit trail is, you can set that up. Those gold you couldn't. you locked in in a safe and they came in and they ripped the safe out. They broke it open and now it's ours and you should have given it to us in the first place. We would have given you these cool bonds that we'll pay back but you didn't. So now we're going to keep it and you don't get anything for it. >> So really we've never had the separation of money and state and they really don't want that because that's how people at the top get wealthy. >> Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, that's how the government keeps it flowing, right? They have to have control over that. Otherwise, they have to hand things off to the free market. And that is what a capitalist system is. We take the control that's necessary now and we let the free market take over things as we can't handle them. But it's not like a, oh, here's everything. You know, it's like, okay, well, we kind of had to take control for this big conflict. We were being invaded. Um, all the people are probably going to agree with this, but eventually they want that back. Okay. Well, a lot of stuff got destroyed, so we're going to kind of have to hold the reigns for a little bit, but as soon as it rebuilds, you know, we can't afford to keep it up, so we have to give it back. And then that's a more capitalist system that's built on a free market. But with our system, it's been, oh, look, something's wrong. We need um you to trust us, and don't worry, we'll protect you. Don't worry about that sovereignty. We've got it, and you don't need that sovereignty. You don't need that responsibility more. I will be responsible for what you were previously responsible and then they never give it back and that's the opposite of a capitalist system or what should be a capitalist system. So our system is capitalist and name only. >> What are your thoughts on the current Bitcoin bare market and how Bitcoin is holding up amid all the chaos going on in the world right now? >> Honestly, I'm impressed. I am really impressed because I I I did some models uh with my own just pen and paper doing you know some algorithmic math trying to figure out before the ETFs even came in where did I think Bitcoin was going to go and I was pretty close. Um I was calling the fair the fair uh middle ground of of that like a a conservative high at about 130. wasn't completely bearish, you know, cuz that doesn't account for like, you know, things that are atrocities in the world that could just shake things up or crazy change of laws like tariffs, you know, but we still got pretty close. But then the metric was to go back down to what was it? Uh 30 I think was the math is it would hit about 33 to 35. Um that was the conservative effort there unless again there was something just catastrophic that happened in the world you know multiple black swan events that nobody can predict. But if things just kind of went natural then that's where I kind of predicted that cycle. So for us to only go down this far I'm really really impressed. It it it kind of shows that what the ETFs and the treasury companies and all these institutions and the institutional adoption coming into Bitcoin wasn't what was driving the bull market. It was what was lifting the floor. And that's where my metric fell apart cuz the bull market was dead on. But the bare market was way off because I didn't I couldn't account for that because you know there's rumor of it but it wasn't a thing at the time. So, this was uh I think that math was in 20 late 2023 or early 2024 was when I did that. And I just wrote it out on paper, you know, tracking every single year and what the algebra was and including the diminishing returns and stuff because the the peaks will get closer and closer together over time. I I also didn't account for the impact of the having and you know what Michael Sailor talks about that the what the market's moving at is so much more than what is coming in via the hash you know the hash rate then and the mining then that's uh not something I had considered either. So that probably made a big difference in me being wrong about the floor as well. So not afraid to admit I was wrong. >> Yep. that in Bitcoin we definitely learn to do that but of course that's measuring Bitcoin in fiat dollars which the amount of fiat dollars in the system is always changing and >> possibly like Larry Lead says there could be a br big print coming and >> so yes we do measure in in fiat because uh that's what most of us buy it in but at the same time one bitcoin is one bitcoin This is true. Uh that is very true. But at the same time, you know, when you talk about if I were to ask most people um how much Bitcoin is this house and the fiat price is right there, they got to go to a calculator, figure it out, right? So fiat is acting as a a metric and go between because it's not the unit of account right now. and as the government's got their fiat at the end of a gun and you'll accept that as a unit of account because you don't really have a choice and you can have an additional unit account that you and your friends hold but you'll be responsible for that on your own. We're not helping you. And so to talk with other people that aren't quite in the system or even at the level that we might be, we can utilize the language of fiat and just recognize that we're not depending on the fiat. It's just a translation. We're using it as a gobetween to say, okay, well, I know that's a $400,000 house. How much is that in Bitcoin? Well, we look at the price of Bitcoin to to fiat. Then now we can say oh okay that's four Bitcoin roughly that's you know three and a half whatever and that because Bitcoin is so volatile it makes it hard to be a unit of account right now because of the volatility because the prices would just be drastically changing so much and everybody would just want to use dollars. So it just I kind of see it as a like having a translator you know I'm not worried about the fiat price but I need to know what it says. So that's that's kind of how I view it, you know, but I'm still when I'm thinking of the math and I'm thinking of the measurement, I'm not thinking of, well, if I buy that, how much fiat dollars does it take? I buy I look at that and say, how much Bitcoin is that going to cost me both in what I might have to pay and what I could have had had I not bought it? And I think that's the really the focus. If you're thinking of Bitcoin in terms of how much fiat dollars you can have, then you're totally missing the point. But if you are using the fiat dollars just as that measuring stick and that calculator to translate, but your concern is one bitcoin is one bitcoin, then you're on the right track. >> Yeah, I like that. You're referring to the low time preference aspect of Bitcoin. >> Did you have that already or did that become more prevalent when you found Bitcoin? >> I didn't have that at all. Uh, as a matter of fact, it was the exact opposite. Um, before I found Bitcoin, I remember arguing with my wife. We were having a discussion over taxes, and she said, "Well, I'd rather pay more and get money back than pay less and have to pay again at the end of the year." And I said, "Not me because that money is not going to be worth as much. If I want to buy this gun in January and I buy it now and I I'm not paying the extra in taxes, I can buy it with that money that I would be paying extra taxes to just to make sure that I'm covered." And the value of the dollar is going to go down. So by next January using the refunds that I got to buy that gun, it feels good. It feels like free money, except it isn't. It actually cost you more dollars usually by the time that next January comes around to buy that same gun. And I was like, I I get it for less if I buy it now. So, just buy the things now. Don't worry about saving. It's pointless. You know, have enough in the bank to make sure that you've got your bills covered and that'll just get harder and harder and that'll melt away. But you'll just have to keep stacking in that. But everything else, just spend it. spend it because you're only going to buy less later if you save it because dollars are terrible. And I had at least figured that much out. But I had a very high time preference due to that because I didn't see another option. And then I found Bitcoin was like, wait, saving works. It was never meant to be that way. And I think the big confusion that people have is on gold, the money system worked a certain way. You know, the top down, bottom up system. This is how it worked. And then fiat came around and they just flipped the table on everybody slowly. They just rotated it around. From 1913 to 1971 was an experimental transition where they just slowly turned the rules of money on its head until it was completely backwards. And you think back to 1971, how many people really remember what that was like that are alive today? I mean, really remember before they said we're no longer pegged to gold and the dollar isn't pegged to anything except for our economy and how well we're doing. So now that feels like that's what it always has been, you know, cuz I'm younger than that. And it feels like what it it was always was. So that feels like traditional wisdom, but really we have thousands of years that says otherwise. And so that moment was just awakening for me to realize that I could save money, but it came at the cost of I put it here and I can't touch it for at least 4 years because if I need that money, I shouldn't put it in here right now because I don't have anything to fall back on. And if that price dips, I'm in trouble because I've just lost money, you know. So at first you're you are measuring in fiat because you don't have any Bitcoin. But then as you know you DCA in and you have money in there for longer eventually get to that point. It's a growing system that you eventually grow out of. You grow out of the fiat into Bitcoin. But it it very rarely is it an instant transition unless somebody just has a lot of money and they're willing to accept a loss if they have to spend it. You know because that's an even longer time horizon. You know, I was like, I might lose a little bit of money now, but in the very very long run, I'll I'll win that. But that doesn't work for some of the older generations. I myself, but grandpa, so I don't have that kind of time. But the slow transition I do have time for. I can make that happen. And by the end of it, I'll be a lot financially stronger and independent. Yeah, that's amazing that you actually thought about spending, you know, the money before you found Bitcoin because much of the world lives like that, right? We talk it we talk about it like but it's not always known why. It's translated as maybe keeping up with the Joneses or some unspoken rule in the background that people actually know their money is losing value. I think they do. They just accept that there's nothing you can do about it. I had a conversation with a family member and I was talking about Bitcoin. I was talking about, you know, the inflation being a problem and they're like, "Well, you know, there's nothing you can do about inflation. That's just something that we all have to deal with." I was like, "Really?" Cuz I don't I don't have to deal with that anymore. I opted out of that system. So, I see >> about a lie, right, that we've been told. >> That sucks. >> I'm sorry. What was that? You talk about a lie that we've been told. The the lie of inflation. We've been told that 2% is normal, but it's it's really not. It's not it's actually a lie. In a in a free market, there should be no inflation. >> It's a lie on a lie because it's not really ever been 2%. The closer you get to 1971, it was 2%. But if you take from 1971 to right before co and we're looking at a 6 12 to 7% average inflation rate like true inflation rate when you actually measure it with proper metrics and realize that closer to you know 2019 it would have been higher than in when they first started it. So they were probably closer to 2% in the beginning and then they've quickly gotten away from that and that's just their given number. They say 2%. That doesn't mean anything. Um 2013 the best number they could come up with was 9%. They said it was a 9% inflation rate. And if you know then you know it wasn't 19 or it wasn't nine. It was probably closer to 16 to 19% is what it really was. And that's insane. That's scary. And to think there's nothing I can do about that. I just have to accept this. I don't have to anymore. And I feel sorry for the people who their ego is holding them back, you know, but I get it just I I think again the the way I thought before did kind of help me transition because I realized that the money sucked and I realized why things were going bad. That's why I had the time preference. Whereas other people, like you said, because of keeping up with the Joneses or social conditioning and, you know, you're a bad parent if you don't buy all these things for your kids at Christmas and all these other things that are just programmed into us throughout our lives. And you know, that's a whole another metric because they built their life on it. They built their identity around it. You know, you you think that you are the truth that you understand. You know, that's like the amalgamation of what is you is what I believe is is my experience. And to think that something might have not been true this entire time and you've built your entire identity and life around that, that's a hard pill to swallow. And that's why I I think that transition period, a lot of people, you know, make fun of it. You know, they say, well, if you're going to go to Bitcoin, you just have to go all in. Just just dive right into the deep end, and that's better. But people are facing that ego death. And some people need to kill it slowly because they'll just walk away and go, "Nope." No. How many people you say, "Hey, just jump into the deep end. I know you can't swim, but that's how you're going to learn." And they're just going to walk away from the pool and go, "Nope. Swimming is not for me." Okay. Well, that's not for you. You're not that daring. Why don't you try jumping into the shallow end? I'll get in with you and we'll work our way out there. And so that's that's the whole micro strategy product. and you know keeping money in fiat, keeping money in a little bit of Bitcoin, only saving what you can afford to lose because we all know that transition. You save what you in the beginning you save what you can afford to lose and by the end of it you're saving what you can't afford to lose because you've you've built it up that way. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Hi everyone. I'm excited to share [music] that I'll be a speaker at BTC Prague 2026, the biggest and most influential Bitcoin only event in Europe from the 11th to the 13th of June. [music] Come and join me to hear incredible speakers like Michael Sailor, Jack Malers, Frat Fenixson, and many more. And connect with a community of true Bitcoiners. Get your tickets [music] now before prices go up and use my link below for a discount. See you there. Do you think AI will cause us to have deflation? And and even if we do have deflation in some goods, well, we know AI is going to cause deflation, but even if we do have it, we still need Bitcoin. >> Absolutely. Um because the the system's going to fight against it. It has to just like it it has to kind of fight against Bitcoin in some way, shape or form. AI will usher in some deflation, but it also ushers in other problems that the government uh remember they they said sacrifice that sovereignty and we'll protect you, right? We'll keep you safe. And those came with promises and a lot of people are going to lose jobs. And instead of trying to figure something else out, they're going to turn to the government and say, "You promised help. Give me that UBI. Give me that unemployment. Give me something because you promised that you would protect me from this. Well, there's only two ways to protect you. Is to print more money and give that to you and devalue everything that you're buying with it, or to say, "Oo, we're going to make laws that say you can't do that AI thing. People are losing too many jobs and we can't keep up with getting them transitioned into other places." and they're gonna fight. They quite the same way. There's that uh phrase that then they fight us and then after that then we win. That fighting period I don't believe is here. You know, a lot of people thought that it was, you know, under like Biden and, you know, the operation choke point and and it kind of was, but to me that always felt more like they were making fun of us than they were actually fighting us because they weren't coming after people. They were just making it much more complicated. They're spreading this terrible narrative. Uh they're just making the rails and building on it harder, but they weren't really doing anything to try to subvert Bitcoin directly or to try to subvert anyone who had it. And so there is a chance that that then they fight us. Looks like, you know, insanely high taxes, you know, um uh Camala Harris was running for president talking about uh unrealized capital gains. Well, here's this new system that nobody understands. And what if we get a president that says, "You know what? We don't need unrealized capital gains on a tra traditional market. We've got enough people into Bitcoin that have been there for forever and they're super rich. Why don't we go after them for unrealized gains?" Because that's just not fair that they got in so early. They were so lucky. And that's something that I could see being a real future, you know, because the majority of the world, we're at a what 4% adoption rate in, you know, like the US and China and the UK and that's not really very high. So that means 96% of the world goes, "Yeah, I don't understand it. We're good with it." that that's some cheap internet money that isn't didn't cost them anything anyway because they don't understand the cost of the mining and the energy transfer and the proof of work through going and having a job and buying Bitcoin. They don't understand what went into it and so they'll just sign off on it. They'll have mass support from the uneducated masses to do so. So if they really wanted to push it, I think that would probably be the way that they would do that and say that'll fund your UBI. >> Yeah, definitely [clears throat] something to think about. I'm not trying to be a doomer though. I'm not trying to be a doomer. I'm just saying it's a possibility if things go >> if if adoption doesn't be doesn't progress enough to where people go, "Yeah, I don't like the idea of that because they kind of do have a little bit of that or my retirement does invest in that and they're going to come after them too and that affects me." And if enough people are bridged into it, then the government might be like, "We're going to do this and then you have so many entities going mm- no, that that doesn't work for us." and they just don't get the votes. And that would be the the best way that we could fight back with that is that's about the only way the ballot box would make a difference. >> Yeah. Yeah. There. But there's lots of things they could tax for unrealized capital gains. Bitcoin's not big enough right now, but like you said, it could be. And it that's why people consider plan B residences because often they're forced to do that. But let's get into Bitcoin fixes this. You've said we know that Bitcoin fixes a lot of things, but it doesn't fix everything. What doesn't Bitcoin fix? >> There's a lot of stuff that in order to fix it, Bitcoin's got to move some of the obstacles out of the way. It has to fix the money so that we can do things properly. uh research into disease. The money printing makes it harder. You know, it it it seems like it's working good now, but it incentivizes bad behavior. It incentivizes bad food, bad all kinds of things. And we just need the money to get out of the way. But then there's more research. There's more, you know, like inventions. And money, Bitcoin doesn't make inventions. It doesn't, you know, but the the bad money system that keeps these inventions from coming about, we can get the obstacles out of the way. So, the majority of what's stopping the world from progressing is the bad money. But once we get the bad money out of the way, then we've learned the tools of sovereignty to say, "Hey, I want to try to make something here that isn't never been here before." And we see more zero to one inventions where there was nothing like it. and then hey here's this cool revolutionary technology you know like the advent of AI you know or the creation of Bitcoin you know there wasn't anything really like it that worked before you know they were working on it for a long time since the 70s but there wasn't anything actually engaged that really had any promises so Bitcoin's kind of that zero to one and Bitcoin uh Bitcoin doesn't create more zero to ones but it does enable you to go out there and do And I think that's the big message is a lot of people are going to sit back and say, "I'm going to enjoy my Bitcoin, my retirement, sit on the beach." Well, what happens if everybody's doing that? What happens to your food? What happens to the industry? What happens to the inventions? And life's going to get a whole lot worse. So eventually people are going to have to figure out that work's a good thing, but being sovereign and working is different than being a wage slave. And that's the key. That's the key. You know, I I hope to work the rest of my life. >> I just don't want to work as a slave. >> I want to work as a sovereign individual who can say, "I am doing this. I'm going to go see my granddaughter, you know, for a week." And they say, "Well, we can't approve that on the schedule. Oh, you misunderstand what I meant. I wasn't asking you for permission. I was telling you I'm doing this. I would like to come back and work for you, but I don't need this job. I can go find another one." And that's the kind of freedom that Bitcoin allows. And >> so it does fix a lot, >> but it's still going to take the gusto and the, you know, deep inner fire of people to continue making the world a better place. It doesn't do it on its own. So Bitcoin's half of it. Bitcoin clears the obstructions. That's what it does. But to really fix the problem, dise Bitcoin won't cure disease. It'll enable people to cure disease. >> Yeah. Yeah. So putting it all together, everything is downstream of money >> for now. The US and the world is not run on Bitcoin. In order for us to get closer to that where Bitcoin can actually fix incentives because like you're saying those the medical system is broken. I've spoken to many people who say that the incentives are broken there. The pharmaceuticals broken there. In order for Bitcoin to fix all of that, it actually has to become a medium of exchange and a unit of account. And we're in the fight it stage still. It's going to take a while to get there, but but I absolutely agree once we get there, it'll fix a lot of incentives and make a much better world. But in the meantime, for those of us who spend our time in Bitcoin, we we can opt out now. We can spend and replace. we can live in Bitcoin. And when you have that confidence to say to your boss, "Yeah, I'm going because my time is valuable." That's an amazing place to be. And that can come way before Bitcoin is used as a global medium of account or medium of exchange. If you truly understand Bitcoin, you know why it's so important to be your own bank. [music] Without full self-custody, you're trusting a third party that knows who you are and [music] how much Bitcoin you hold. Bitcoin is about eliminating counterparty risk. It's about self-s sovereignty. The Bitcoin way is the best way to learn the skills [music] for this level of freedom. Their one-on-one approach teaches you how to take self-custody without ever needing to know who [music] you are or how big your stack is. Go to the Bitcoin way and book a free 30inut consult. Don't delay. Your freedom is at stake. >> Yeah, that's because that's where the store value that's where the power of that comes in. Um I I've debated with a lot of different people. I know Casp was this big thing that was going on for a while. There was all these people coming in. This is the silver to Bitcoin. Didn't we hear this with Litecoin? I'm pretty sure I read the history books on this and we've gone through this before, but oh well it it mimics Bitcoin just at a faster pace and all this other stuff. like no you're trying you're creating something and saying that this is going to create this other thing that this the medium of exchange rate is going to create it but the way that it has come about is it has to have the adoption first people have to have value in a system when you're competing with another system and I think that's the one thing that a lot of people miss I I actually just had somebody comment that that's a you know and a bcash and you know he it's all about the medium of exchange then the store of value. But without the store of value, what attracts people to use it, right? It, you know, yes, it has the same rules and principles, but you know, Bitcoin came around and it had things kind of unlock and y'all decided that the the corporations were more important that you wanted these big corporations to be able to immediately exchange out and not have to wait in line. And that didn't work for them. And so, they weren't going to use it as a medium of exchange. So you guys change the rules and you know same with the cost stuff you you're really reliant on a lot of people are actively using it. So what happens when the government tries fighting back against the people not the system but the people themselves. Well here's these rules that say it's illegal to use Bitcoin. What's the best part about it? It can hold on. It can wait out. Bitcoin you can just sit there with it. It's your store of value. Say okay well you can't use it at the store. We're making it illegal. But you can have it. It can't be an asset. It can't be a currency, but it can be an asset. Okay. Well, that's a fight. That's a fight against Bitcoin. You know, not letting it be what it was meant to be. That's that's a battle. And Bitcoin can just sit back and go, "It's okay. We'll wait you out. We can wait forever." You know, but the ones that are built around the medium exchange, some of those that are mining, their mining is built around it. COSPA uh Bcash. What happens when the volume isn't there and the subsidies are gone? You know, because COSPA was one where they were bragging about, oh well, you know, it'll run out of the subsidies so much faster and then it'll be on that true system quicker. Yeah. You put cart before the horse and you ran it so fast that there was nobody watching the race. You got there, there wasn't anybody there and you're like, look, well, what incentive is there to mine? Cuz nobody's using it. You need all massive transactions to pay for the energy and it's not there. But Bitcoin, >> they also they also have leaders. >> They also have leaders those coins. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Whereas Bitcoin we can print more. Those coins can. >> I don't know if Bcash can and I'm not really sure if Cosby can. I'm sure it probably can because I know there there is a guy who's still actively trying to change the rules. So Satoshi was involved for like a year and then he goes, "Okay, here's the keys. Gone." And said, "You guys got this. I'm out." And that was probably the safest thing he could have done. So if he's still alive, uh that was probably the only thing that kept him alive. You know, so everybody's like, "Well, he'll come back. He'll take all of that from the Genesis wallet." Not without a price on his head. That all that money don't mean anything if it cost you your life and or anybody who gets it, right? So you can't even be like, "Oh, well, I got it, but then I pass it out on my kids." Okay, so I can hunt you and your kids. [laughter] They don't want that. Don't Don't bring that smoker to my house. And if he's still alive, it's not like he's not, you know, and just keeping it a secret. Then he's been a part of the system the whole time. He's somebody out there. could be some guy that was just doing a little bit of mining here and there goes yo I've mapped this out to where I'll live comfortably quietly and just watch it slowly take over and you know just be happy somewhere just working whatever job for himself and a farm somewhere you know and >> talk about a ego death though because I mean what an incredible invention I mean I don't know if it's an invention a protocol but he or they it's an incredible thing to walk away from. >> Yeah, that I I I think there was a safety thing, which is why I think that maybe he did. And then that's pure speculation. I can't say that. I know for sure, but you know, I it goes back to my initial thoughts of why he didn't accept Bitcoin. Oh, they'll get them. They'll get those people. The banks aren't going to tolerate that. The rich aren't going to tolerate that. The people who have the system locked down, they're not going to tolerate that. The government's not going to tolerate that. So what happens if he would have been exposed? Hey, this guy is actually Satoshi or these people are Satoshi. Those people would disappear at a dark hole. They'd never see the light of the day. They'd never see a trial. Whether it was a government at a black site or, you know, some uh capitalist that just got together and decided to run some kidnapping ring to to grab the guy and make sure he paid for the rest of his life because you screwed this up for us. You know, we had it made and now we have to compete again. And how dare you, you know, so who knows what it would have been. And even if it wasn't, you know, wherever he was from and their government and their systems, you know, he traveling anywhere, knowing who you are, you go to the wrong country and they go, "There he is. Get him." And so I I think if he was smart enough to figure out Bitcoin, he was smart enough to figure out, I need to not be associated with this wallet. I have to walk away. I have to because otherwise it'll cost me a lot more than what the entire system's worth to me and mine you know and then uh >> well well you've also said you know that relates to this that realizing there is an undiscovered beauty in just a tiny insignificant piece of the universe. Does that what you mean by that? >> Yeah. I mean in a way I have a different approach that's kind of the uh the nihilistic approach and it gets a bad rap because people you know a lot of people take things for the surface whether it's the ego death or nihilism at the surface well the universe is so big and I'm so insignificant nothing I do is ever going to change anything but isn't that kind of awesome that the system is going to run no matter what and you could be you that means the only thing that matters is what you do with those you care about I I don't have to go out there and try to change the universe. I can just change my family's life and that's okay. I can live for my family and friends and what I value and that's freedom. You know, that's another form of freedom and beauty in the simplistic. You know, some people want that that chase of power and responsibility and to be a CEO or start a business that just takes over the world and changes it. And that's great if that's what you want, but you can take the nihilistic approach and say, "Well, we all can't do that. So, I kind of like the simple life of just saying I don't really matter. So, let me let me look to the areas around me that do matter." That's where I make a difference. And I think it's just kind of the perspective that you take on it. >> Yeah, I like that. So, what does being fully self- sovereign mean to you? Being fully self-s sovereign to me means that I get the time with the people that I care about. It's not about what I can buy. I don't care what I can buy. I I only care that I live below my means and can do what I need to do. And as long as I can do that, that's sovereignty. Yeah. There's still some systems that we're always going to have to deal with. you know, um, one of the businesses that I want to make is going to involve food, and it means I'm going to have to invite the FDA into my life. And I'm not excited about that. But as long as I'm doing it on my terms, and they can't double up with the loans and all this other, well, I have to meet this and I have to meet that and then attempts me to sh, you know, it'll it'll come out when it comes out or it just won't. you know, I make a product that's in the food industry because I think it fills a niche hole that doesn't exist and then it either works or it doesn't, but I I got to try it, you know, I got to have fun with it and maybe I just keep it local and sell it to the people because I couldn't scale it, you know, and that's fine. I'm totally okay with that cuz that's that sovereignty. I don't the FDA is just to get it out to other people and that's just because I think other people might enjoy it. Um, but if they stop me from it, well, at least my friends, my family, the locals, farmer market and stuff, they can enjoy it because I don't need the FDA for that. So, I'll still be able to do what I need to do. Just they affect the scale. That's all, you know, but that's the importance for me. And then I have that time with my kids, my grandkids. My my children are young. My grandbaby is obviously much younger. the world demands a lot more of their time because well my my granddaughter's got to learn. She's got to do all this stuff and then she's got to make something, you know, carve her little slice of the world no matter how small and insignificant it might be. But she's got to carve it for herself and that's a lot of time. And if I'm wrapped up in time, then now we have to get our schedules to align. Well, that's hard. But if I'm just available whenever, will you tell me when you have time and then I'll come and see you and we'll spend some time and we'll go do some of those things that you want to do. And that that's the power of Bitcoin. That's the power of freedom and sovereignty and responsibility. And it's not easy. It isn't easy to get there. It takes work and it takes guts. >> That's that's so well said. And do you think there's also a spiritual side to Bitcoin? Because like you've said, it gives you time to do what you want to do. It could also give you time to look within. >> Mhm. >> It can result in spirituality after effects. I I don't think I don't see necessarily a spirituality in Bitcoin and of itself, but the fraying of the mind, the the ability to explore things is its own kind of so they are linked in some way. I can't deny that. Whether it's having time to go do the things at church that you want to go do or to go meditate in the place that makes you feel one with the universe, whatever that is for you, you know, it helps you enable that. And so if you have something that's spiritual in your nature, for me, it's all about the pursuit of knowledge and family, you know, I like to learn stuff. And it started with that first ego death where I just didn't want to be wrong. And then I learned things to win. And then I realized that I just like to learn things. And I didn't like to learn things before. I like to pretend like I knew everything. And I said some outlandish things when I was young. I mean, how in the world did I defend that? And I did. And I'm sure most people just walked away going, "That guy's an idiot. That guy don't. What was the stupidity?" I mean, I am an idiot, but it was ego. That was what was in the way. It was ego is what made me look stupid and it wasn't actually you know what I knew you know because if I if I just would have said this is what I believe I know then I wouldn't have looked so foolish but I defended it I defended as if my entire existence was built upon it and then it all came crashing down in that moment and then I it caused me to learn to love to learn things and that's and again part of the reason why I was able to accept about Bitcoin cuz I could here's this huge rabbit hole I can go down of things I didn't understand. I had to learn how money works and um wars and tariffs and I never had to learn about any of this stuff before. It didn't matter. This is great. This is fun. It isn't for everybody, but it was for me. Absolutely. >> Yeah. I like that. When you think of an ego death, I think of I wanted to be right so much because that made me feel better about myself, but then as I realized I wasn't right about certain things and but that I was still okay. So it that ego death is a little bit of a jolt, but then it's okay to be wrong. But I think a lot of people just don't like to be wrong. >> Yeah. And that is it. That's where their ego is. They don't like to be wrong. We see that in the Bitcoin community all the time. People argue. And when you present something that that they can't argue against, maybe they just don't understand it and they look at it and they say, "Well, you're just you're that's just word salad. That's word salad. Here's a talking point. You know, insert random insult here because I have no idea what you just said. You're you know, you don't you clearly must not know what you're talking about." Well, maybe I do. Maybe you just don't understand what I'm saying. And it's not because of the language that I'm using. It's just because you've limited yourself. The ego death is something that you are meant to continue to experience because the ego never really truly dies. It it it is killing the version of you and then it tries to reestablish itself. So this goes into Carl Young and if you take it at the surface, which a lot of things from Alan Watts, you know, took it a little bit deeper, you know, but it still didn't quite hit all of the marks. He was the one that was establishing that shadow which influenced the the ego and it creates a persona and that's what you're killing. You're killing the current persona that your ego is establishing and then you build a new persona unless you stay aware of it and you continue to keep your ego in check. Because if you don't keep your ego in check, your ego is the one driving, not you. You are a result of what you fear. You see in others what you fear. That's that's the projection. You know, you start saying, "Oh, well, you know, you're you're this or you're doing that or you know, you're behaving like this. Uh you're this type of person." That's a projection. You don't know anything about me. How do you know how I feel? How do you know how I am? You You only know what you have heard. And I'm constantly evolving. You want to tell me you're caught up with me on what I am? No way. There's no way. the amount of the audacity you're bringing to the table to sit there and say you know me like I know me now based off of the conver all the conversations we had up to you know a month ago you know there's if you're learning all the time there's so much that's changed so we we have to be aware of that and we have to continue to experience that ego death and what we thought we knew well maybe that wasn't quite what was real and I mean we can even look to the history of Bitcoin, right? We get up to the big blockers versus the small blockers. What was it intended to be? Well, it was an ego death for someone for a large portion of the community, you know. Um it, you know, because even the people who there were a lot of people that were with the big blockers that ultimately stayed with the small blockers. Those people had to experience that moment, too. They had to have that. And then there's the people who went to the big blocks and they never experienced that ego death and they're stuck over there and they just can't admit that it just didn't win out because it it's too much too fast is really what it was. Uh you want to say that the technology will get there to support it, but you can't guarantee that. And so the small blocks is the best way to guarantee that it does. And you know even I mean Satoshi did say that we could change the block sizes. You know he said that you know if it needed to it could that's a way that it could scale. Um it was kind of like a light like maybe maybe that's a thing. But at the same time he didn't say when. Nobody said when. And in 2017 the big blockers said no now. Now. No other time but now. It has to be now. and if you don't do it now, we're going to do it and we'll just leave you. And they did. And look what happened. Its all-time high was like $900 back [laughter] in 2017 at some point in time and it's never come close ever since. So, it's even lower. >> Now, we've got the core verse knots. Same kind of thing happening. I do think though with Bitcoin is at least we all see, well, many of us see the solution. I think my goal is not to name call to continue to stay curious and continue to grow myself because we all need to get along I feel. >> Yeah, that's one of the things that I can actually respect in the nots camp because I don't really agree with them and I most of my friends are in that camp. You know, the people that mean something to me in the Bitcoin community, they're on that side. You know, I care about these people to some level, you know. Steve, we're not hanging out on a Tuesday or, you know, on the weekends, >> but you know, like I I do I want to see them do well. I don't want to see them get hurt, you know, and the one thing that they're saying is like, okay, yeah, um we disagree with this, but we're not trying to leave, but at the same time, that can be kind of taxing because, you know, you're you're willing to force that change onto other people. you know, they've got the BIP 110 now and that's uh coming from people on that knots camp and I think personally it's just a misunderstanding of the free market and it's hard it's hard to understand free market. We've never had one, you know. Uh I mean what I think Jeff Booth wrote the first book on it, [laughter] you know, and he said it's constantly >> Let me just >> let me just say one thing, Kyle, because I am a not supporter and so is Jeff Boost >> and >> Yeah. So, so I knew I do know what you're saying and I know the argument. I know that >> the free market allows whatever on. So I know there's two sides. I'm I'm talking to George Bodin this week who explains it much better than me. But just the fact that Jeff Booth runs Knots that that's something at least to look into. >> Oh yeah. I I originally was going to before all this started um that what led me to Knots in the first place and that's what I was going to end up doing uh before all this stuff started. I hadn't quite set up my node. I hadn't, you know, you know, gotten that. I had I wasn't into the mining yet, but I was looking into it cuz I wanted to figure out how it worked before I started plugging and playing uh cuz I didn't want to make a mistake and you know, oh well, my Bitcoin's over on this and oh crap, I just did that wrong and somebody took it, you know. So, I want to make sure I really understood it really well because I I I will move very slowly on, you know, when it comes to my Bitcoin and I was looking at it honestly because of the ocean mining pool and a lot of them are running on knots. You can I think you can be in there and you can run core. Um, but a lot of them did run on knots. I'm like, well, what is this knots thing? And so, I was looking into a lot of that. I was like, oh, okay. I I get that. I didn't really have a problem with it. Um, it's not, you know, even the running knots, like I won't run core v30, so I'll make that clear. I don't support core v30. I just think that some of the reactions to it are just as bad. So core 30 I thought was reckless >> and sloppy and it it's kind of like, well, you know, I'm just going to do this cuz that's what's easiest. But easiest doesn't necessarily mean best. I mean, maybe there's a way that you can solve that and you could have moved things in a direction where it needed to be because it it's um what's that phrase? If you build it, they will come, right? And then there's the other avenue of that that is if it's needed, someone will build it. And Knots is on the if it's needed, someone will build it. and core is on the well why don't we just open it up and then people can come in as they see fit and the free market will figure it out not exactly the best solution in my opinion you know um I get that it could have ultimately ended up there anyway because it wasn't a change to the consensus it was just a relay policy and I understand the reaction to that and the largest one is the CCM argument right and nobody's okay with that nobody wants that like we're all like uh rather that not happen. Mm- I don't want to be really associated with that. That scares the crap out of me. And so putting it that large when there was no one trying to use it yet is just saying, "Here's an open playground. Go have fun." On the other side, it's just like clearing a field. If you clear a field and leave it alone, the first thing that shows up are weeds, you know? And that's just it. it it the the ground's not really hospitable for something that needs to, you know, a little bit more care to survive. Uh there's a whole ecosystem there that gets destroyed. You know, the free market will eventually take care of it, but I recognize that there's a lot of crap there that doesn't need to be there. I am in no way, shape, or form a fan of JPEGs on Bitcoin, but I also know that they're out there going, "Look, we can do this trick. We can do this trick. we can do this trick and then the other companies can come in and go, you know, I think I can make some money building a layer 2 that helps to scale Bitcoin and I think there's some money there and what are some of my options available? And they can look at what the weeds have done and say I can do that and they'll be more substantiated than the weeds. So they'll choke out the weeds, you know, they'll choke out the spam because the spam's just there for fun. That's all they they're goofing off. You know, the only real problem that really comes from all this is this ECAM argument. And that's where I think core was really, really sloppy. They could have said, "Okay, we we're going to kind of do a little soft forward rework of this because I mean, Mechanic and Luke brought it up before they released it. So, they okay, well, let's pull back. Let's see if we can find a middle ground solution here to prevent this from happening, but not make it untenable for a future company to come in and say, "I'm going to build and oh, well, now all my stuff has to be broken up into a million pieces and it's going to be outrageous." And so, they just won't they just won't do it. And that's the problem. And that's why I have a problem with changing it in the consensus. You know, I have no problem with the relay policy. You know, have the relay at 83 bytes, have it at zero. The the system will be able to it'll be fine. No, Bitcoin's not going to die because anyone run core and Bitcoin's not going to die because anyone runs Nox. So the people screaming that you know these people are trying to kill Bitcoin uh that it's it's politics. It's bringing >> real world politics and those >> Yeah. It's not worth it because it takes away my peace and and we all can reserve the right to change our minds at any time. regrowing. But I think um yeah, it's a fascinating discussion. I like to hear all sides and I like to hear what you said. We'll continue this discussion for sure. But um thank you so much for joining me today. Tell us where people can find you. >> I'm on Twitter and the name is Thunder. The at is Grave Skies. All one word. G R A V E S K I E S. And I'm not afraid to get, you know, into the weeds on stuff. I'm here for the conversation. I'm here to learn. And I learned through debate. You know, I've changed my mind plenty of times because somebody presented something that I hadn't considered. As long as people are willing to take that to the logical conclusion, that's valuable for me. So, if you like that kind of stuff, then I'm more than happy to talk with you. You know, >> I have to say I've learned a lot from you. I've enjoyed this discussion. I'm sure lots of people are on the same wavelength and really appreciate the way you do it because I don't hear the toxic side in you. I hear a very uh studied and well articulated. So, I really appreciate it and I will put links below. >> I try not to be toxic. >> I try not too. I try. [laughter] >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me on. This has been a lot of fun.