Bitcoin Bombshell: Saylor Reveals When He Would Sell - EXCLUSIVE

You've always said never sell your Bitcoin. You floated the idea to at least let them know that it's there to be sold in theory. How much unencumbered Bitcoin do you have? >> It's all unencumbered. It's 818,000 Bitcoin. If we were to say we're never going to take advantage of that liquidity, then we're impairing the asset which 98% of the company is built on. We might sell 20 basis points of Bitcoin in a month. We'd probably buy 5x or 10x that much in the same month. So, Stretch represents a bank account that pays you 11 12%. We found a a consistent way to buy tens of billions of dollars of Bitcoin with credit market capital. I say I'm buying the top forever. I'm happy to buy at 60,000. I'm happy to buy at 80,000. I'm happy to buy at 120. I will be happy to buy at 200,000, 500,000, a million, 2 million, 4 million, 8 million, 16 million. >> That's dope. Let's go. >> So, we're here at Consensus in Miami. You're giving a keynote this afternoon. >> Can you give us a preview of what that's going to be about because I think it's probably a topic worth discussing. Well, uh, we've created digital credit and what we think Bitcoin is digital capital and we think the killer app of digital capital is digital credit and stretches digital credit. So, Bitcoin is a 40V 40 AR asset and we have stripped most of the volatility and most of the risk off it and we extracted about 11% yield with about three V. We think that's the gateway to get to digital money because if I can strip 40 vol 40 AR down to 11% or 11 and a half% yield and 3v the next step is zero vault 8%. And so if you want digital money, the ideal money is like a stable coin or a bank account that pays you 8%. And right now people are developing uh those uh those yield coins zero of all 8% money and they're doing it with digital credit. So I'll be speaking about how we created digital credit which has exploded. It's gone zero to eight and a half billion dollars in eight months and is growing 350% a year. So I'll speak about that phenomenon. Uh I'll talk about why that is spreading through the trad uh ecosystem and then I'm going to talk a bit about digital money and digital yield. How you can take stable coins and DeFi protocols and loop that credit 3x 5x. up. You either get a stable coin or a yield coin that pays uh 8% or maybe you create a 25% 3x levered or or looped uh digital yield token or digital yield fund. And so I think what's fun right now is digital credit is bringing uh the capital gains and the power of Bitcoin uh to the the crypto and the digital assets ecosystem in the form of yield coins and DeFi. And we're merging. We're seeing the two hemispheres of the industry crypto and Bitcoin come together. So instead of having capital and crypto that never finds Bitcoin and capital and Bitcoin that never goes into DeFi or or or crypto industry, now the capital flows in, it flows to yield coins, it flows uh to digital credit, it flows to Bitcoin, it loops back and it uh invigorates the entire industry. >> How does this work structurally? Is it still backed by Bitcoin or are we really taking a departure from that and utilizing all the other benefits of crypto as you said and kind of creating an ecosystem that flows back and forth? It's obviously a departure for many Bitcoiners to think about using stable coins and earning yield and DeFi and things that kind of foreign to them. >> Well, you know, there was always this mythical wouldn't it be great to have a Bitcoin back stable coin that paid you? I >> I've never understood how uh no stable coin exploded on Bitcoin. >> Yeah. Yeah. And the and the issue is it's very difficult to go from 40 vol to zero vault. Like that that's a massive massive shift. How do you strip all of the volatility off of Bitcoin and get to perfectly pegged to the dollar and extract a yield? What we discovered is you need that intermediate step and the intermediate step is digital credit. So the idea behind stretch or digital credit is you're converting a capital gain into a a a dividend, you know, a credit dividend. So if I if I expect 30% returns on Bitcoin Capital, I can just strip the first 11% and pay it as a credit dividend. So the way we created stretch is we created a preferred stock that's a monthly variable rate preferred and we pay like 11 a.5% right now and the way we fund that dividend is through investing in Bitcoin and then capturing a portion of the Bitcoin capital gain monetizing it. And so the first step to creating digital money and yield coins and putting yield into the DeFi ecosystem which which powers it. It's like electricity uh jacked into DeFi. The first step is uh create digital credit and we were uniquely able to do it because we inadvertently built a $50 billion equity stack when we built strategy. And so we have about an $85 billion enterprise value. Now we've got about 58 billion of equity and if you for every dollar of equity you can maybe sell 20 cents of credit. You know you want to be 5x over collateralized. So we took our Bitcoin and everybody said, "What are you going to do with the Bitcoin? How do you generate yield on the Bitcoin?" And we thought, "Well, we're not we're going to actually sell the credit to generate the yield." So we discovered Stretch. We created it. It exploded. It started growing three to 400% a year. You know, uh in the month of March, we sold about $1.5 billion of it. And in the month of April, we sold $3.2 billion of it. So, you know, multiply 3.2 time 12 and it's a horrend, you know, incredible terrific run rate. So, that was the first step, you know, taking digital capital, making it digital credit. And people think, well, you know, you're crazy to pay 11.5% dividend yield. But the point is, it's a perpetual swap. We're basically swapping you sofur plus a credit spread forever, and we're getting back bitcoin return forever. And uh that's very different than a bond that's never coming due. And the company has the option to lower the dividend if sofer falls. And the company has the option to compress the credit spread over time as people get more comfort if Bitcoin rallies if they like the business model. As Bitcoin gets more institutionally adopted, as the credit rating agencies uh start to embrace digital assets and the banks embrace digital assets, we expect the credit spreads to come down. And so uh so that's how we create digital credit. We were fortunate enough to have a massive uh set of equity investors that support our stock. We trade billions of dollars in equity every day. We're lucky enough to have a bunch of uh Tradfi derivatives traders. You know, um we have about $40 billion of open interest in the in the options market. And yesterday, if you were watching CNBC, at the end of the day, they said the number one biggest options trade in the entire United States today is strategy. Some some uh options trader is laying on a multiund million dollar options bet, which surprised me. So, the point is we have options traders, derivatives traders that are supporting us. We have equity traders supporting us. We went into stretch with a bunch of hedge funds and then the hedge funds started arbing stretch and stretch became the biggest preferred stock in the world and then it became the most liquid preferred stock in the world and it that all happened in about 8 months. So stretch exploded to be about 350 to $400 million of liquidity today. And um and here's the cool the cool news, Scott. We didn't really understand the DeFi space and we we weren't heavily steeped in stable coins and DeFi and and crypto. We were always focused upon Bitcoin and Tradfi. But a bunch of uh digital assets innovators like Apex and Saturn uh and Pendle, they all started thinking about this and they built yield coins and they built uh they built uh tokens that were backed by stretch that generated yield because from their point of view they're saying am I going to power yield with a real world asset like a T bill which pays you three and a half%. or am I going to power my yield with digital credit that pays 11 and a half%. So in essence, we're offering 11 a.5% yield into the DeFi space as the starting point and it's exogenous. It's basically backed by our 80 bill, you know, 58 billion of equity or $85 billion enterprise value and our our Bitcoin stack which right now is almost 4% of the Bitcoin supply. So that becomes a competitor to, you know, other forms of yield in DeFi. They started building that and and that entire complex went from 0 to $300 million in a matter of weeks. It's just doing this and and uh there's going to be a thousand interesting things to do there. I can't, you know, and it's very creative and it's very uh forward thinking and progressive and they move about 20 times faster than Tradfi. It's so interesting to me because we've had this trend in crypto of ma massive bubbles explosion and then you actually find a few legitimate use cases out of those ashes, right? That rise and we saw the algorithmic stable coin idea which you know I think would be the first iteration of these yield coins but they were backed by nothing or they were backed we even have some that are successful that are backed by Ethereum staking or something but that's three or 4%. You're talking about basically taking that idea, taking it to capital markets by something that's backed by a multi-billion dollar asset that's yielding safely 11.5%. So that conceptually it actually made a lot of sense. They were just doing it with the wrong backing. >> You know, isn't it it's a beautiful thought that for 10 years people worked out all of these techniques and all of the math behind it on various forms of yield. And now we come along and we feed this digital credit into it and they're already ready because they've already got the technique and the technology and they've been thinking about it and and so it's a it's a really good partnership. I feel like some of the most radical innovations are when you when you're an engineer you take three components that were lying on the table and you put them all together and you create a magical product. And so so uh we didn't invent DeFi, right? >> Defi's been here. If you look at stretch or digital credit, we took return of capital tax accounting, it's 100 years old. We took preferred stocks, they're 200 years old. We took publicly listed stocks, it's a hundred-year-old idea. Then we took Bitcoin, we plugged that in, and that made, you know, we created the world's best preferred stock by plugging in digital capital. And then we took that digital credit. And uh if you if you look at stretch the trady investor says okay well I can uh borrow money on Robin Hood at 5% or 4% and I can start with one share and I could loop it once I maybe I can lever it up to two shares and then and I stop I get a 2x lever and I can't get any further because Schwab or Robin Hood or Tradfi prime broker dealers aren't going to give me any more credit and there's reggg t which keeps you from getting too much leverage. But on the DeFi side, it's like I can go and I can get 5x leverage. And if you would uh 5x leverage a bitcoin, which is 5x lever of 40 vol asset, which is degenerate, right? >> Or 10x lever a 40 vol asset. Well, I mean that I don't condone. But on the other hand, if we have a twov asset and then you 10x or 5x lever a twov asset. Okay, now I'm looking at 15 vol but I'm I'm extracting 35 or 40 uh% yield. This is actually not irresponsible. So I think the idea was the right idea. The asset you like there's no point in levering a T bill 10x if the cost of capital is 4% and the return is three and a half%. You see, that doesn't work. >> I I just think it's funny because if you ask the average crypto person, they would tell you that 5x leverage was low and extremely responsible when we have 100x perpetual slops. And if you look at the forex markets, people trade with 50 or 100x leverage just to get enough volatility for it to make sense. So, it's not a foreign idea to use slightly higher leverage on low volatility assets. And now I'll give you the the interesting idea which is revolutionary for tradi and for defi and is this the sharp ratio is uh is the risk adjusted return. So I take the the yield, I subtract the risk-free rate, I divide by the vault. Stretch has hit a sharp ratio of 2 1/2. Digital credit is 2 and a half. And we've got a proposal in front of our shareholders to cut the dividend to double the dividend frequency. And if we double the dividend frequency, we think that the volatility is going to fall further and the sharp ratio is going to move north again. So let me put that in perspective. A two and a half sharp ratio is higher by a factor of five than every credit instrument in the world. Maybe a factor of 10. It's higher than every equity. Like you know the highest MAG 7 sharp ratio is Nvidia is 1.7. Every other equity is one or less. It's higher than every asset class. The sharp ratio of the S&P or Bitcoin or 08.9. The sharp ratio of gold 0.5. It's higher than every hedge fund strategy. Every hedge fund where you're playing two and 20 and you got lockups, they're if they could get a sharp ratio of two or 2.2, they could raise infinite money. >> Okay, we've created an instrument with a sharp ratio 2 and a half, three or so, and there's no fee. It's liquid. Anybody can grab it. And that means that you put that in a token, you tokenize it. You're saying to yourself, what's the instrument that I would like to plug into 10x leverage? And the answer is you want something with an extremely high sharp ratio because when you 10x two vault that's only 20 volt that's just the S&P >> right >> you know and and so we've created I think with digital credit something which is really good for Bitcoin we found a consistent bid a way to buy billions tens of billions of dollars of Bitcoin with credit market capital and we've also created something which is really good for DeFi and really good for crypto because Now we can power the entire DeFi and the entire uh crypto complex with something which has got 3x the energy of a T-Bo. >> Have you done the math? I'm sure you have on what the sharp ratio is if you added stretch to a 60/40 portfolio. What it does for the entire portfolio, not the asset itself. >> You know, I mean stretch is like a universal financial sweetener. It's going to improve the performance and the sharp ratio of every portfolio. >> Yeah. I'm just curious. I've always seen the, you know, add 2% of Bitcoin, your sharp ratio increases by this. Add 5% of Bitcoin, your sharp ratio, but there's a cap there. >> Well, Bitcoin's a sharp ratio of 0.9 stretches a sharp ratio of two and a half. And again, it's a it's a simple idea which is I overcolateralize the instrument 4:1 or 5:1 and I just strip out the first 11%. Because I'm highly confident that I'll get more than 11 and a half% over a decade. And we've got 50 years of capital, right? We can We as a company strategy we can absorb the volatility. We can absorb the weight the duration risk. We can absorb the credit risk. We can absorb you know the uh the uh you know capital risk all of those things because we just have the stack of nearly 60 billion of equity and we're just creating that first clean stream of 11% that goes into any portfolio. And so you can almost say we're like providing hodling as a service. >> I mean obviously anything you do or anything anyone does at the size you have critics and there's people who have been very critical of STRC's stretches structure. I mean is that the answer that you give to them? The one that you just did. I mean you know they obviously people think it's unsustainable and you point out the math of how long you can sustain this and the price that Bitcoin can go to and you would still be able to pay the yield. So why do you think that >> you know I'm I'm famous I'm famous for this quote you know never sell you Bitcoin and uh I think uh the first year or two years the way that we grew this business is we would fund the credit dividends by selling our common equity well what we're really doing is we're funding credit dividends by selling a Bitcoin derivative right >> MSTR but uh to a per a casual observer or a skeptic you know or a troll they would say, well, you know, you're just feeding you're paying the dividends of one type of equity with another type of equity. And they don't like that. So, I think it's very important that we break that cycle and illustrate what we're really doing is we're selling a credit instrument to buy a capital asset. We're selling credit to buy capital. The capital asset is Bitcoin. It's like you're selling credit to buy real estate. The real estate appreciates. You sell the appreciated real estate to pay off the credit dividend. >> Taylor's oldest time. That's what I was going to say. I mean that that that's a a proven strategy to accumulate wealth, right? >> You could you could boil it down to capital gains fund credit dividends. If you think if you think about the theory of of asset back credit, if you think that the capital investment is going to appreciate at 10% a year, you can pay a dividend of 5%. If you think the capital investment is going to appreciate 20% a year, you can pay a dividend of 10%. If you think that real estate's going up 7% a year, you can pay a dividend of three or four or five. We think Bitcoin is going up 30% a year. We have no problem paying a dividend of 11. >> But you don't need it to. >> We don't need it to. uh we're so overcolateralized that the way it works out is if it goes up 30% you know when we when we sell a billion dollars of STRC if Bitcoin goes up you know 11% we'd make a billion dollars in net income that our Bitcoin gain if it goes up 22% we'd make double that we'd make $2 billion a billion up front and a billion over time if it went up 30% we'd make a billion up front and two billion on the back end it's screamingly profitable for the equity investors But on the other hand, if all Bitcoin has to do is go up our break even level, which is 2.3% for us to pay the dividends forever. So we we >> and that's on average. That doesn't mean you can't have a down year. >> Yeah. On average o over forever, >> right, >> we need 2.3%. And if we don't get that, if we get 0%, we have about 50 years, 40 to 50 years to figure it out. So people, you know, the knee-jerk reaction is, oh well, they borrowed money 11 and a half percent. But that but what they don't understand is that no, we're never giving the money back. We sold equity. And so we sold equity at a variable credit spread over a long period of time. We really uh just need Bitcoin to go up 2.3% to create value for the common equity. And if it goes up, if you believe that Bitcoin's as good as the S&P, this is a no-brainer to do it. And if you believe that Bitcoin's better than the S&P, this creates massively amplified Bitcoin returns for the equity investor. So, we found an extremely low risk, almost a, you know, I'm not going to say risk-free because the lawyers go nuts, but it's excessively lowrisk way to swap the standard overnight funds rate for the Bitcoin return. And you know, even the US government, you know, they get the standard overnight funds rate, but they have to pay the money back. We're saying we're going to give you the standard overnight funds rate, but and we're not going to pay the money back, but we'll give you a credit spread. We'll give you a a premium. And that makes it very interesting for a credit investor. But if you're a Bitcoin investor and you want to buy a lot of Bitcoin and hold it for a 100 years, hold it forever, then this is the way to do that most intelligently and most aggressively. >> When STRC was relatively new, we sat down in Vegas and you laid out the case. It was at money 2020, so a trady audience rather than a Bitcoin or a crypto audience for who would be interested in buying this and how it would benefit them. You talked about the massive increases over March and April. So obviously you were right, the interest came in and and is continuing to grow. Who do you think is buying it and why? Do can you see that or is it >> I mean the most important point is the Bitcoiners go why don't just buy Bitcoin and the answer is if you want to get on a 40 V 40 AR roller coaster and hold the money for four years and not touch it you should buy Bitcoin >> but only a small percentage of people you know have the conviction to do that the people buying stretch are retirees you know 65year-old guy wants to live off of his retirement income if you know they're they're conservative investors They're corporate treasurers. Like, I need the money back in 6 months to pay taxes. I need the money in a year to pay my kids tuition. I am I want to get paid double or triple or quadruple a money market, but I don't want to risk my principal. So if you think about people that that that need um they need principal protection and they want to comp they want to compound their wealth in a in a lowrisk low anxiety way. They want to preserve their wealth while they compound it faster than inflation. That's a lot of people. And so you know uh stretch represents a bank account that pays you 11 12%. And if you walk down the street and you say to people, do you want to buy a highly volatile equity? Do you want to buy a highly volatile crypto asset? Or do you want a bank account that pays you 11% that you don't have to pay tax on for the next decade? You know, you do the poll, it's not complicated. There's a lot of people that will say no to the first two and they'll say yes to the third. But here's one more point. Even the people that would say yes to the first or the second, like if you're willing to bet half of your half of your what net worth on Bitcoin or half of your net worth on Nvidia, you still have money that you need to pay the mortgage, taxes, your kids' tuition or you have working capital in your corporation. And that working capital is what I'll call uh short duration capital. you know, you can you need it back in the next three years and you can't afford for it to be worth 30% less on a you know, on a draw down. And so, everyone has working capital and digital credit is a really good fit for working capital needs of people in the crypto economy. And then it's really expanded the entire universe because it's drawn in all of these non-crypto investors, non- Bitcoin investors, nonvall investors. Scott, like I've gone and I've pitched Bitcoin to corporations. It takes you hours and hours. You got to go to the board of directors and spend an hour or two hours in front of the board of directors. You have to convince the CFO, the treasurer, every member of the board of directors. And if one member of the board of directors goes, you're done. >> I'm not sure. Okay, we'll wait for you. On the other hand, if you go to a corporate treasurer or CFO and say, "Hey, I have something that yields 11 and a half% tax deferred. Do you want to buy put five or 10% of your working capital into this instead of holding it money markets?" That's like the treasurer talks for a few minutes with the CFO and if the CFO likes it, okay, it's done. They may or may not whisper in the ear of the CEO, but it's not a board level decision. It's uh it's an operational decision. in the finance department and a lot of people retail investors other sorts of investors they have the same view which is someone else what do I want I want someone else to take the risk take the stress deal with the make the volatility go away and just give me a return greater than the inflation rate and like do I have to trust him just like you know you trust Apple like you trust Google like you trust Boeing you know the world's full corporations that we trust to provide a service that we need. And so this is uh this is a a security. You have to trust the issuer. You have to accept risk to Bitcoin. But you know, Bitcoin falls 80% tomorrow, the credit still collateralized and you're still getting paid. Whereas if you put all your net worth in Bitcoin and it fell 80% tomorrow, you lost 80% of your money. So, it's a very different risk pro uh uh risk proposition. And what we found is it's a hundred times easier to explain and it's 100 times more compelling because everybody wants something that's 3x as good as a money market >> and allow allows you to massively compound the Bitcoin that you're buying, which is a nice uh side effect obviously. So you mentioned obviously the open interest uh and how much interest there is in trading the these or in purchasing them for that reason. How much of this do you think is the carry trade? Because obviously you've got to imagine I've even seen it all over Twitter, right? You're getting 11 and a half on STRC even for the average person who can go to Schwab or Robin Hood or something and take uh securities loan margin 5%. That's a 6% spread. put that 5% not saying anyone would recommend this and then you can obviously buy more STRC effectively increase that yield seems like that's what hedge funds would be doing >> you know I think there's three three trades um that I can put my finger on right now there's the retail buy and hold you know so you can live comfortably on your assets >> 80% of STRC when we did our last survey is held by retail accounts 80% of the shares So, by and large, the number one trade is I'm using it as a bank account or a money market because it's it pays 11.5. >> That's me. Yeah. I I buy Bitcoin for my savings and I have a position in SDRC that's earning me yield. >> And you know, you live in New York. That's a bank that pays you 24%. >> It's crazy. >> Okay. So, that's the big trade. The second trade is is there are hedge fund ARBs. They buy it a few days before the dividend record date. They sell it afterwards. And they kind of want to capture 20 or 30 cents per share by holding the instrument for one day. >> Buying below par, selling above par. Do it again. >> And now it'll be every two weeks instead of Monday. >> Well, what they're doing is they're buying it at par and they're s and they're collecting an eight a 90 cent dividend and they're taking a 60 cent haircut and they're capturing 30 cents for eight hours of capital. >> Right. Okay. Makes sense. and that and that's fine and and and that creates liquidity and so that's a trade. The the carry trade is harder to execute in Tradfi because you know you've only got an advanced ratio of 50% and you know they won't give you 5x leverage or 2x leverage very easily. So a lot of the people that want to do that carry trade went into DeFi. So I think the rise of the carry trade, the exciting how do I take a you know how do I take this asset and leverage it 5x or 3x and get to 20 30 40% you I think that's coming out of the D5 protocols and it's not a majority of the capital which is fine. It's, you know, it's like zero to, you know, a few hundred million and it's starting to come to life and I think that'll be a good thing. But there's a race between people that want to do that, people that just want to hold it and the corporates that are coming in and also the credit index investors like uh Black Rockck and Van, you know, uh STRC is the number two holding in the PFF index and it's the number two holding in the Van E, you know, preferred index. So there's a lot of different pools of capital that are coming in and it's unclear to me which one will grow the faster, but it is pretty clear that the exciting thing for the normal person is I either swap my money from a money market into a digital credit or I go off and I borrow money at 5% and I lever the thing 3 to one and I go from a 11% yield to like a 25% yield And uh what what's 3x leverage on a threevall asset is nine va which is still less than holding the S&P index. So how about I get principal you know stability and I get better than the S&P return and I'm using capital intelligently and you know and I I I don't know how I feel about 10 to 20x leverage Scott. I just I haven't worked it out yet. But I think two to 3x leverage is rational. And you know, I've said this for five years. It's like if you can borrow money cheap, if sofur goes to 300 basis points or 200 basis points and you can borrow money at 3%. Heck, I have a mortgage at 275 basis points. >> And I'm like, you >> and I used to say, you know, you could borrow money at two and a half or 3% and buy Bitcoin. And people thought that was crazy. Yeah. But I think that if you can borrow money at 3% and you can buy something that gives you 11 and a half percent and if an 80 billion public company says they will handle the volatility and they will absorb the risk. Why wouldn't you? >> Yeah, I agree. And obviously you've, as you said before, you've always said never sell your bit Bitcoin. you floated the idea in your uh earnings call said, you know, inoculate the market to it, which I think is just an evolution in my opinion, right? Because you have to at least let them know that it's there to be sold in theory. How much unencumbered Bitcoin do you have? >> It's all unencumbered. It's 8 818,000 Bitcoin. The real key there, Scott, is is we own about $65 billion of Bitcoin. If the market thought we would never sell it, the credit rating agencies would say, "Well, then I guess it's not an asset." And there's a 20 to$100 billion dollar liquidity in the Bitcoin market that is not correlated to our equity or to our credit. If we were to say we're never going to take advantage of that liquidity and we're never going to use that asset, then we're impairing the asset which 98% of the company is built on. It's pretty important for us to send the signal that if we need to, we can. Now, that's not the same as decrease our Bitcoin stack. The truth is we might sell 20 basis points of Bitcoin, like 2% of Bitcoin in a month. We'd probably buy 5x or 10x that much in the same month. So, so people are getting caught up on that. But if you sell a $100 million of Bitcoin in the same month that you buy a billion or $2 billion of Bitcoin, we're still net buyers of Bitcoin. We're still net holders of Bitcoin. But the benefit to being able to fund with Bitcoin is we have the option to never sell a share of stock again. And that really rips the faces off of the shorts. That's good, right? And then we also have the option to capture the tax credit because we have billions of dollars of tax credits that if we were to simply sell the high basis Bitcoin, we would capture the tax benefit and we could fund the dividend. And then with STRC, we're selling so much STRC that we'll buy back 10 bitcoin for every one bitcoin we sell. And and if you can do that, I would recommend you do it, too. It's not a bad business. >> I It's just mechanics. It's >> not selling Bitcoin. >> It's not reducing your Bitcoin >> right makes perfect sense. So >> I've just found it fascinating to watch the evolution. How fast do you think the yield coins will become popular and I guess become accepted. There's always that moment where people are skeptical and then you have this sort of Cambrian explosion of interest. We saw it with STRC. You know, I'm watching Apex and they're adding sometimes a million dollars in in TVL an hour. Like I'm watching a me, you know, I'm watching the same with Saturn and they're ticking up millions of dollars a day. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't go through a billion dollars of capital, you know, in the yield coins in the next four to eight weeks. And then I think it could accelerate. It's a I think this year is going to be it's going to be a multi-billion dollar uh industry within the next few months. It's growing very very rapidly. I mean stretch is growing 350% a year right now. So >> isn't that the next 90 days? >> Isn't that conservatively? >> I mean I I I know you can't extrapolate March and April forward to December right at the same growth rate per month but it could happen. >> Yeah. I think we're in hyper the bottom line is we're in hyper growth stage and it's kind of a simple it's a simple idea which is do you want to collect three 3.5% yield and pay tax on it and collect 200 basis points after tax in your money market or would you like to collect 11 a.5% and defer the tax for the next decade okay and the answer is well that sounds too good to be true what's the catch of course I do okay that's what's going on in tradi right now with digital credit. Now, in DeFi, would you like to buy a stable coin that pays you zero? Or would you like to buy a and why don't you loop that 10x? Like, what is 10x levered zero? Or would you like to buy something that's backed by a treasury that pays 3%. Well, what's what's the effective net yield on that? If you loop at 10x and you pay 3% cost of capital and collect 3%, that's nothing. Or would you like to actually buy a yield coin that pays you eight or 10 or 11% and loop the and not loop it? Okay. Well, a stable coin that pays me, you know, yield coin pays me 8%. Well, why wouldn't I want that, right? Why wouldn't I buy 10, 20, 50 billion of that tomorrow, right? It's just, well, do I trust the issuer? Like, it all comes down to do I trust the issuer? Do I trust that they've got their security protocols right? Do I do I like the team that's doing it? And it's like when the bank sets up and they pay 8% and every other bank pays zero, the money will move or the capital will move when the investors trust the bank. And so this is really an exercise in education and uh and execution and trust building and and it starts slow and then it goes faster and then all of a sudden it explodes. >> I think we had 29 seconds left. Is there uh is there ever enough Bitcoin? Do you ever stop? >> No. I I I think our our view is our job is to power up the network. So I'm you know I say I'm buying the top forever. I'm happy to buy at 60,000. I'm happy to buy at 80,000. I'm happy to buy at 120. I will be happy to buy at 200,000, 500,000, a million, 2 million, 4 million, 8 million, 16 million. And people will make fun of me for doing it. But, you know, Bitcoin would be trading at 16 million a coin and they can make fun of me all they want. For us, uh, the key is for us, uh, to just be steady. The rest of the market will set the price. We will, you know, buy 10 Bitcoin, might sell one Bitcoin, buy 10 more, sell one more, grind up, and I think it's it's just good for everybody in the ecosystem. Everybody's winning. >> Thank you, Michael. Appreciate your time as always. This podcast is sponsored by Weeks and was recorded live at Consensus 2026. You can find out more about what they have to offer by clicking on the link down below in the description. Thanks to Weeks for sponsoring.