Why Bitcoin Beats Buying a House

Bitcoin beats buying a home and it's not even close. This is the title today. So so glad to be joined with Joe Forest Rashad. What's up you guys? Just holding it down here in in Canada. Missing our fifth member today. Brandon he's MIA. He actually might be in Canada today. I don't know I didn't realize how close to the Canadian border Brandon was. So it takes him about an hour and a half to get into Canada. Oh. I didn't know that either. >> I How are you doing Robin? I'm [snorts] doing better like I got knocked out from Peter Schiff last last week. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Wait wait what do you mean? What? His lip. My my lip. Oh he knocked you out. I don't know. Did you actually get in a fight? >> [laughter] >> No but yeah it's getting better. It's still an annoyance. Man it's it's the lip like it's it's really like even a small thing you know like if you have the same thing somewhere else nobody cares but the lip is a weird thing. But I as we as we said the last I think one two times I went back and saw comments. YouTube has an amazing feature. I want to show this to you guys because this is how I will take inputs from the comment section in the future and I think if you guys know it it's it's it's easier. So that's the the YouTube studio behind from BTC Mastermind and there's like a really cool feature. You can just say contains questions. And so I think you kind of have to con form it as an actual question so YouTube can pick it up. And then there was one guy and I I like that because I think a lot of people actually think about that. And also a lot of people that watch Bitcoin content think about that. I think if we are into Bitcoin a lot we don't think about that because we like of course I buy Bitcoin. But if you're not in it like 24/7 and like read already 100 books and went down the rabbit hole for like 1000 and 10 hours it's a question that a lot of people have and so I that comment inspired the whole episode. And let's see where where we end up and uh Ben here just asking us in the last episode in the comments hey guys any thoughts on investing in Bitcoin instead of buying a home. I feel like there is more to life than a property but TradFi tells me I'm wrong. LOL curious what you all think. Thanks. Any any thoughts of Rashad Joe Forest? TradFi's been wrong about Bitcoin this whole time until like I mean why did it take until 2024 for there to be a Bitcoin ETF even right? Took until 2020 for the first company to meaningfully buy Bitcoin and put it on their balance sheet. There was a lot a lot of education a lot of time a lot of ability to buy Bitcoin before that and the entire time you've got to go against what TradFi was saying. And it's really only now that they're beginning to wake up to it and it's still yet just a you know 5% um a 5% of your portfolio kind of concept from people like Morgan Stanley even there was a Charles Schwab released like this educational video about >> All that. about how to how to hold Bitcoin and they talked about they conflated risk and volatility which you know short-term volatility is a risk but it isn't inherently risk if that makes sense. It's not a risk that can't be mitigated so um you know these are like it's all just about education and it's about um I think with a lot of it it's also you know TradFi is seemingly kind of late to this right? Like Bitcoin is money. Money is a financial concept. These people are financial educators and and actors and so they should understand it and they don't. And they're pretty far from the understanding that us everyday plebs have. And that's why people come and listen to us about Bitcoin because we're far more educated about it than than they are. So they got a lot of catching up to do and um uh you can look at so many other aspects of the financial TradFi industry and realize how wrong they are too. Like why should you be uh invest using a financial advisor when they underperform a a simple index fund. Why should you be buying locked-in illiquid mutual funds to get one extra percent maybe if you're lucky. Or you're you know investing large monies in hedge funds which they know they're going to underperform the S&P but it's a hedge. Right? They're diversified in a different way than the S&P and that's what you're paying for and you're actually losing money from that. So there's a lot of nonsense that goes out there with TradFi and so I'd be wary of it all. And that includes this concept of ownership of property which you can even debate if it's even real ownership. And I think it's different and I think there's a little nuance there where it's different if you're talking about buying your own home to live in and there's a difference between buying property and real estate as an investment. So we'll get into all of that but those are my just initial thoughts on that. That's a good way to start I would say. I I echo the majority of things that Forest said there and I think that Wall Street is finally catching up. I mean it's the one thing I learned pretty early on in Bitcoin is to the the concept of following the incentives. And Forest alluded to the the mutual funds and the products offered and the return and how the whole system itself works. It's just it's it's completely backwards to me because again people go to these advisors for advice. We're talking about TradFi here. About how to set them up better financially. And you know the majority of financial advisors that I've known in my life and have known for the last you know decade or so they spend more time on the phone with their clients than they do looking into what's next. It's just kind of it goes into the machine and it it's there's certain unique products that some firms have and some don't but there's on the other end of that there's usually a kickback to the advisors and the more they purchase of that certain product the more that comes back their way. So in Bitcoin it's a little bit different. It's almost rules reversed where we spend the majority of our time trying to figure out what the best option is here as we're having this conversation today. And we don't ask for any fee. We're we're on YouTube for free. Anybody can watch this right now. So it's it's just a different system I think. I I think that it really depends on you know you the purpose for the house the area how long you plan on being there cuz there's a lot to it. There there's a lot that goes into it versus to just owning and renting. But the one thing that I keep thinking about every time I see somebody selling their house for Bitcoin is I keep hearing Klaus Schwab say you'll own nothing and be happy. And again kind of at the same point I catch myself because what Forest said there is absolutely right in the sense that you don't really own it. You don't own it because everybody knows this who would be watching the show but if you stop paying your property taxes you find out pretty quick who owns the property. But there is still something there in terms of like being rugged being susceptible to risk because if you have a landlord you could get rugged. It's almost like a third-party risk there that any at any time they could decide that they want to fix the house they could do some renovations on it and you're looking for a new place to live. So there's a bunch of trade-offs there. I'm actually really excited for the conversation today about this cuz I think it's on a lot of people's minds right now. Yeah I don't think it really makes sense to buy real estate as as a savings vehicle and that's exactly what a lot of people do. They don't think of real estate as I mean they say that oh it's because it has utility that's why houses are valuable but they're not buying houses for that utility. They're buying it as a savings account. And a lot of people they I mean I mean really when you think about it the financial services industry makes money from you not quite understanding how it works. So if they're telling you to buy houses it's because they make money from you and once you grasp that I mean everything is about profit everything is about that motive where they want to bring in customers. They need customers. The bank needs customers who are willing to buy more houses and who are willing to borrow money to buy a buy more houses because if they don't find customers then the entire system just falls apart. That's what that's what needs to happen. They incentivize you to buy houses by giving you low interest rates even though you're actually getting screwed over and they're just taking a cut out of the out of the money that you make. They're taking a cut from really not doing anything. I mean they print the money out of nothing. They convince you that you need to get a mortgage. People buy houses. They increase the demand for housing and the banking system just makes money from from doing that so why wouldn't they keep doing that? Once you understand the incentives and you start questioning them everything just changes. Everything pretty much just falls apart. Yeah it's really interesting and I think I think we all um probably most of the chat agrees on it's not a good idea if you already own a home to invest in another one and just like buy Bitcoin with that instead. Um so I think for the sake of of this video because we want to also want to keep it short today with like about an hour let's focus on like the specific thing like buying a home versus renting a home. So like the the one option would be you rent a home and instead of having a I don't know 100K down payment 50K down payment 200K down payment, whatever your your your house will will cost in the end. Putting that into Bitcoin and and saving maybe even like having a cheaper rent than the mortgage. I made some calculations with two similar homes versus renting. And in all my cases, the mortgage was higher than the rent and I had to down payment. I don't know I just did like one example, so I don't know if this is always the case or the mortgage can also be cheaper than cheaper than the rent. What I keep coming back at it is if you get really attractive rates for a home and you have only a little down payment to to make, so you are extremely financially well-off and the bank is lending you a lot of money. And you don't have to put in a lot, it can make financial sense. The question is, do you want to have an emotionally? I mean, that's also another thing we kind of have to talk about. Some people just want to own a home emotionally. Like and then and if if you are that person, there's no debate. Like if if you if you feel better in your own four walls when you own the place versus renting it, I I think there's a If you are some if you can do it, you probably should because you just feel better and that makes you more productive. This will allow you to do things. I don't know how you guys think about that. But yeah, like there's a lot of different thoughts on renting and buying Bitcoin with a down payment versus buying the home and just like buying a little bit DCA in Bitcoin next to the home. What are you guys thinking? I mean, if if that's the if that's the question we're going with there's like if you had the choice if you had a bunch of money that you're sitting on right now or not a bunch of money, but enough money to purchase a house via down payment or put that into Bitcoin right now, I think without a doubt regardless of what's going on, unless it's like your dream property that's only going to be around for >> [snorts] >> you know, scarcity, I guess and desirability are factors in this. But for the most part, I don't think that's a thing for people. So I think that my decision with that would be put it into Bitcoin, hold off on it. I just see such a a huge variance and discrepancy between Bitcoin being incredibly undervalued and housing being incredibly overvalued right now. And so I think the one thing that Bitcoiners do very well is they delay gratification. So the other nice thing about renting is that you're very flexible. And you know, at a time like this in the world, lots of uncertainty, lots of chaos, I think the more flexible, the more agile you are, the better off. And that to me is renting. And so that that would be my decision. I wouldn't I wouldn't be buying a house right now. I wouldn't be sinking that into a down payment. I would be buying Bitcoin and just kind of waiting to see what happens over these next couple years. I think there are benefits to buying houses. For example, like my house, we bought it in 2019 or 2018. And today our mortgage is like 2,000 Canadian per month or like 1,400 US for a townhouse. I think that's pretty good. So there are benefits where basically you're locking in your price and I think the the asset isn't the actual house, the asset is the mortgage. The ability to borrow money and bring your future consumption to the present and you just have to find a lender who's willing to do that for you. And banks are willing to do that, so why not take advantage rather than buying the house in cash, use the mortgage. So if you're let's say for example, if you do have the means to to get a mortgage, I think it's worth it. Um Let's say for example, if your down payment is really small like let's say they say, "Oh, you can get a 40-year mortgage and you only have to put 5% down or 3% down." In that case, it's definitely worth it. Even though you're paying like let's say property taxes, you're paying for all those things. That's that's I I if you consider that, I mean, it makes sense cuz you have stability. Right? And I think that's something that a a lot of people are missing. I think entrepreneurs need stability cuz their income isn't stable. And having that stability in my mortgage made a huge difference for me and it and it really helped me to take more risks in my life. So if you look at it from that perspective, that could that could make a difference as well. Um there there are always trades tradeoffs. There's always there's there's no perfect solution. I think that's that's the key. For every single person, there's a different situation, different solution. You have to look at all of those solutions before you actually come to your answer. I think we should double tap a little on why the loan, the mortgage itself is the asset. And it's partially because you're you're taking on debt and you probably get pretty good rates on those on that debt because the entire property ecosystem, the banks and everything, they all want this system to perpetuate itself. So they're willing to give out loans at really good rates. And your you take on the initial capital ahead of time to buy an asset and this asset is a home and it's going to perform at some kind of average rate as an asset that increases in value. And then the debt actually gets cheaper over time because you're paying say 5% on an interest rate and the money gets debased at 7 to 10%. So it gets easier and easier to acquire more dollars into the future as the money becomes more available. And that's that's where the arbitrage is and it's it's essentially like a huge leveraged play when you buy a home. If you put 5% down, 10% down, you you're that's massive leverage that you're taking on by taking on that debt. And that's why even if housing only performs at like 5% annual or or whatever, you're so leveraged to it that you're if you calculate it off your initial down payment and your monthly installments, you're up massively on your investment. And I think the the difference if you were to rent is you kind of have to think, "Okay, well, if everything is equal with like rent and mortgage payments and you're you're kind of mortgage payments will do this like forced equity thing where part of your payments every month not maintenance or maybe some of maintenance might, but like property taxes, insurance, these are not going towards your mortgage, right? Your mortgage payment goes towards your mortgage. So it's like this forced investment that I think happens. And I think that's why a lot of people end up having a lot of wealth in their older years because they've been forced to invest, which is probably something they didn't do anywhere else. Um but if you take all of that investment that you make and the down payment and you were to buy Bitcoin instead, you're buying something completely unlevered in that situation. And that still has potential to completely outperform even the leveraged asset of real estate. And that's kind of the bet you need to make between renting and and getting a mortgage if all things else are equal like ability to get a mortgage or ability to rent a place. Which some people qualify for one or the other in different places. So that can be a challenge, too. But like I think that's what people are not understanding is just how freaking leveraged you are when you have a mortgage and buy a home. I think the the down payment is an overlooked aspect of the whole calculation because if you have a down payment of let's say 20%, I [clears throat] made the calculations with a 4% I think interest rate once for my sister. I think we discussed it even on the on the on this live stream beforehand. Um if you make that, you just need to buy with that down payment an asset that goes up 7% or more in in the year and you're actually outperforming your own real estate property. But if you have a down payment of 3%, 4%, 5% or like 2%, you are so leveraged that even if that real estate property just keeps up with like 3% appreciation per year, you're making so much more gain in purchasing power every single year that it's really hard to invest in something that keeps up with that. Because you like almost paid off nothing down and on the other side, you also have to pay rent and you also have to pay maybe your own furniture stuff and all of those things. So even if you're renting, most of the people buy their own furniture. And so I [laughter] guess it's not as satisfying as an answer as you some might want to hear it, but it really depends on your down payment and your interest rate and your personal situation because you can't you can't just say, "Yeah, the one thing is better than the other thing." Without knowing, "Okay, what are the variables? What are the inputs? What are your down payments and interest rates?" I mean, from my perspective, I 100% agree, Robin. I just think that based on where we are right now this second in the markets and everything going on, my my answer would be clear-cut rent instead of buy house right now. I I just think that there's a lot to factor into it. A lot of these calculations, what you guys are saying is 100% accurate. It's just that I I just feel like the housing market, especially here in Canada. And again, I guess it could be different different parts of the world, but it's just so inflated. It doesn't make any sort of sense. It's all still It's all still based on real estate being a store of value. And what we're seeing more and more each day with Bitcoin, with products like stretch, is that real estate really isn't a store of value anymore. And so as soon as that capital starts flowing from real estate as a store of value into other things like Bitcoin, like stretch, like whatever, the the market's going to come down. I I believe that anyways. I know it hasn't historically happened and, you know, if you just look at some of the statistics here in Canada and the US, like the housing market is just ice cold right now. Like there's realtors who didn't make a sale in 2025. And you compare that to the last couple years. So that that to me is a trend that real estate prices should be coming down simply because there aren't enough buyers for the amount of people selling. And, you know, it's going to get worse. The people who are 70, 80, 90 years old right now, there's going to be a lot of those houses coming on the market in the near future. And, you know, it's just it's to me it's a no-brainer. Just put it in a Bitcoin, especially considering, you know, where we are. We're 40% down from the all-time high. There's a lot of traction. There's a lot of momentum building in Bitcoin. And I just think that you're you'd be crazy to put that into real estate right now, unless it's like your dream property. That's my only exception there. Um, but I saw a comment that's kind of worth discussing here because that's one of the main arguments against owning a house is that you have to pay property taxes. And somebody in the chat said that's it's built into the rent, which it is. Right? Like that's that's the reality of it. I I was a landlord before. And as a landlord, you'd have to look at all your costs, uh, which includes property taxes. And then you'd pass that on to the tenant. So [snorts] even though you're not paying the property taxes directly, you're not sending a check to the city or the municipality, you are still paying property taxes for it. It's just disguised, I guess, as a renter. So that argument from that perspective doesn't really mean much to me, but just where the two, you know, the values to me and and the the market is right now, I think that it's a much better bet going in Bitcoin right now. As an individual, you have to be looking at what where is the value? Where can you see value? And what can you see as as potential futures? So like, for instance, I rent and if I was to buy and and look at all the expenses of of a mortgage with, you know, 5 to 10% down and all the costs that would be associated with living there, I could get a two-bedroom, no yard apartment or I could rent a four-bedroom with yard in a nice neighborhood for the same price. So there's a huge difference in arbitrage between buying and renting in my current location. Massive dislocation. And part of that is like even though property tax and all this is factored in, the person who owns the house that I rent in, they bought in 2018. So they're just looking for somebody to cover mortgage, rent, hopefully the house will appreciate, a little slight premium to deal with maintenance, but their cost is way lower because they bought so long ago. So that everything is calculated on that. And, you know, and then again, I completely completely agree with George here where there's a massive monetized premium on top of real estate. People are thinking of it as an investment just as my landlord is where you'll pass this home on to his kids and, yeah, they didn't make that much extra from charging rent cuz I got, you know, these really did give me a good deal here. Um, but the home has appreciated so much, or at least that's what he's hoping. That's the bet he's making. And that's not a bet I would be willing to make. I think it's going to appreciate probably in line with inflation and I think Bitcoin is going to rapidly out-appreciate that. So the that's that's the bet I'm making and uh it's a dislocation, right? It's an asymmetry of knowledge when you look at these kind of things. I think anything with a monetary premium that doesn't deserve it, right? Houses should not be investments. They should not like there's certain properties that could be even on a Bitcoin standard, but the vast majority of homes do not start to make sense in that way on a Bitcoin standard. So I think all of I think the I think gold gets demonetized. I think stocks do. I think real estate does. A lot of that premium comes out and goes towards the best sound money over the over I'm talking decades here. And that is Bitcoin. So that's the bet I'm making as a renter. Um, but it's uh in some cases it does make sense to buy still even with all that said because there's a dislocation in the opposite direction potentially. >> [snorts] >> I want to double-click on something that shows that is it something around like in the you're wrong so far with real estate my crashing down, something like that. That they like the real estate prices have gone up significantly in the past years. I I'm in the process of writing a book as some might know, but and so I do a lot of research on on that that stuff. And so I looked it up and I was like, okay, has real estate actually gone up? And of course, it's I think not fair to compare real estate now to Bitcoin. I I get that. Like if if if if if I pull up the 10-year chart of Bitcoin against real estate, obviously, it it looks horrible. And I don't know if it's fair right now to do it But I think it's fair to compare compare real estate to gold. I think that's a a fair comparison to compare those two together. They're both there since forever. And so um, if you look from my So like I I'm born 1998. So like this is about as old the chart is about as old as I am. And since then, obviously, real estate versus gold is the Schiller case home price index, which is I think one of the most popular ones, which was which I found. Um, real estate actually has gone down like significantly in the in the past 25 years against gold. And gold, yeah, of course, gold has been an amazing investment the last 1 year, but it also has gone down in the whole 2010 2000 in in 2000 and 2010 2020. So it's like obviously, it's it's it's not as a it's not as good as it maybe sounds because if you compare it and if you measure it in in US dollars, if you measure it in something that is not debased away, real estate all of a sudden goes down. It still might make sense because you can buy 100 units of real estate with just like a 3% down payment and you get the 100 100 units. And so you get a massive leverage on that 3% gain. As I said before, but real estate is not doing good. It's And then if you compare it to Bitcoin, obviously, it's it's it's a lot worse. A lot worse. That that's a great comparison though. I think that's should be a real eye-opener to people cuz that's the illusion happening right now is everybody thinks their their house is going up in value, but it's not. It's it's going up in fiat money. It's And the only reason why it's going up is because they're printing more units. And those units follow stores of value. And since 1971, real estate has been one of the better stores of value, but, you know, when you when you measure it in something real like gold, that cannot be inflated, that cannot be changed with government policy, it sure looks a lot different. So I I had one more point that I wanted to add with that, but I'm curious to hear what Rajat has to say on this. Mhm. Well, I think that I mean, I think in general, it doesn't really make sense to buy real estate as a savings vehicle. Just as an inves- I don't think you need to buy more houses than you need. Just buy the one house that you need. After you buy that one house, I mean, even then, buying that one house may not be worth it if you do the math. But I think there's more to it than just the math. There's it's about the stability. It's about being able to raise a family. Um, I think people I think having a house is probably one of the greatest ways to become free cuz you're not constantly relying on a landlord. You do everything yourself. I like that aspect of owning a house, but there's also the other side of things where if you plan to move soon, then it doesn't really make sense to buy a house. So let's say you buy a house and you plan to leave within 5 years, you're probably not going to make it back the fees that you have in appreciation. Let's say your realtor fees, they're like 5, 6%. You have to pay land transfer taxes. You have to pay for a moving cost. You have to pay for all that all that stuff. If you only plan to live there for, let's say, 3 years, it doesn't make sense. You're not going to make the money back cuz your property could easily just go down. Whereas, let's say you plan to hold the house for 30 years or you plan to stay there forever. Like you plan to plant roots there. In that case, it would make sense. Mhm. So it it really depends on your personal situation. And even in the beginning, most of the money that you pay towards your house is going towards interest. So if you're selling your house, I think the number is if you sell before 8 years, then you're you're probably at a loss. And most people sell on average in the US within 8 years. So it doesn't really make sense. And then on top of that, I don't know if you guys know. I've mentioned this before, but there's a statistic that shows that 10% of houses in the US are unoccupied. So there's no shortage of housing. People act like there's a shortage. There is no shortage. There there are abundant houses. It's just that people are holding on to as many houses as they can and they want to get loans on them. And it doesn't really make sense for them to like the rules and regulations that we have make it so it doesn't make sense for them to repair the house because they can't make they they can't make back their rent. Like in in New York, there's rent control. And a lot of places just sit empty because for the the landlord can repair it and to make it livable, it costs so much money and they wouldn't be able to make back the money that they paid to repair it. So, the all those things I think those all those are factors. To me personally, I would never want to buy houses as a savings account. I mean, the work alone is just not worth it. What would I want to do with a tenant? I don't want a part-time job. There's so much risk, too. Like even what you stated there where a house becomes um essentially unlivable in in the state of New York. Yeah. You could technically live there. There might be a couple dangerous things or whatever, but it also becomes unsellable because to fix it up costs way too much money that it ends up not being worth it. So, now you have an asset that you're stuck with, right? This is a completely illiquid asset at that point. And I just I find real estate so risky, so much more risky than people think it is. Like there was a huge boom of of real estate and people moving to Austin uh a few years ago. And Texas doesn't have the regulation like uh like Canada has where they restrict a lot of building, right? There's a lot of land in Texas. So, they just allow you to build. And the real estate went up, but then it came right back down and it's not because there's because of lack of demand. There's still people moving to Austin more and more, right? It's still growing, but it's because they're allowing people to build. So, real estate value did not continue to go up based on demand because the regulation was different in that specific jurisdiction. And those things can flip flip and flop based on who gets elected. So, like I just like it doesn't matter um like there's there's certain things that will pump up the price of Bitcoin like jurisdictional and regulatory uh regulation things as well, but like none of that fundamentally changes the asset. Like Bitcoin is global, liquid, and uh completely decentralized in the way that it's developed and it currently exists, the network itself. So, it just feels a lot safer. I just I would worry about owning real estate um for so many reasons. And I I have owned real estate in the past and thought about renting it out and then I was like, well, I'm not going to live next to the home. There's big trees. What if a tree falls on the house? What if my renter doesn't pay me? There's just it feels so scary to have all those vulnerabilities. Uh and then I just sold it um for twice as much as I bought it for cuz I locked out with timing and then bought a bunch of Bitcoin with it. And I just sleep sleep like a baby. A baby that sleeps well. Um and uh and I'm fine with Bitcoin. You're also giving somebody a significant portion of your wealth and they get to do whatever they want with it. Right? Like when you think of it that way, you buy a house, it's a significant portion of your wealth, you're giving it to someone. And your insurance can just be like, wait, we're not covering you if they do something stupid. Right? Like what if they just burn the house down and it's intentional and the insurance is like, we're not paying you for this. What are you going to do? The guy What if the guy has no wealth for you to take from? You can't You're never going to be You're never going to become whole again. Right? And then on top of that I was talking to someone and he said that in L It was it in LA where the fires happened? Palisades in LA, yeah. Yeah, and they said that um some insurance companies are no longer covering for for for that kind of damage anymore. They're not even insuring houses anymore. So, what happens if you own a property and you need to get rid of it and suddenly your insurance company says, we're not covering it anymore and you can't sell it. Who's going to buy a house that you can't get insurance on? They There are so many problems with real estate, yeah. completely outside of your control. Yeah, completely out of your control. You have no control over that. I I think the other part of it, too, like um Raja, you were talking about the uh what was it now? And I have so many thoughts on this. I'm having a hard time keeping track of it, but um Damn it. What were we talking about there? Property tax and all maintenance, no. Um I got distracted by sorry. I have one more uh point maybe uh you you think about it before because after that because I think we we focus in Bitcoin a lot on like gold and now we also focus on the bond market and we focus in all those things. But real estate is actually the biggest uh market of them all. It's it's the if we look at the Jesse Livermore chart, which is I think uh a chart that probably every Bitcoiner has seen in in in in his life at some point. It's probably the most shown chart >> [laughter] >> in all of Bitcoin. But here the biggest chunk is real estate. And so, if you know what we know of Bitcoin and you believe in that and you're thinking about buying a home, you have to see those two buckets. We have on the one bucket Bitcoin at I think it's a little bit under 2 trillion currently. It's probably like 1.5 or so. I'm not sure of the about the market cap currently, but it's uh 2 trillion or less. And then we have real estate >> [laughter] >> at like 150 X that or probably like 200 X of of that value. How much of that is utility value? How much of that is because people own a home? And how much of that whole value is just monetary premium because people buy a home not even rent it out just to park uh some cash there. How many in Vienna in in in Austria where I'm living, there are so many ridiculous tax benefit for business owners to buy homes that my tax guy already told me two times, oh yeah, like if you do this and this, then you can just buy homes and you can do this and I know a guy and I'm like, I don't want to buy homes. >> [laughter] >> Like what what are you talking about? But like it's the tax strategy number one is at least in Austria. I don't know how it is around the world. And so, it's like we we put everyone into this like real estate like buy a home and if you have a lot of money, buy apartment complexes and commercial real estate and all of that. It just props up the whole market and I think real estate is poised to completely fall apart [clears throat] uh especially in in in Bitcoin terms. I think in in US dollar terms it will always go up because US dollars will fall apart faster than the than than real estate. Um with that small caveat as as also Ross said, it can still make on an individual basis sense that you buy a home and if you have a lifestyle choice uh to to make, I think it's very valid. Um like if you want to if you know that place and it's the dream home and you want to be there for 40 years, like go ahead and do it. But think about how young Bitcoin is and how old and huge real estate is and see which horse you want to kind of bet on. You know that >> That's the point that I was going to make there, Robin. Actually, thank you reminded me of it there. Uh cuz that's what I was talking about before. I think that you mentioned that real estate has definitely gone down in gold terms and in real terms, but I also think that real estate is going to go down in fiat terms at some point here. And I know that's that's the hard part I think for people to imagine right now. But I think the only reason that hasn't started to go down or I I might be wrong about this. You know, if you go year to year, it actually might be down from a couple years ago today. But I just feel like people the average person has this mental block in their mind that their house is always going to go up forever because it's a house. But that's just not reality. Like there's so many different factors involved with that. And especially because there has been such a premium on it as Forest talked about before, that's what's kind of raised the value of it. It's not because they've made improvements to it. It's not cuz their neighborhood's better. It's not because they put up a school right beside it. It's because they printed more money. It's because people have been storing their value in real estate. Well, that's not what real estate is designed to do. Real estate's designed to be lived in. And so, I think that you know, I think what's going to play out here over these next couple years, housing prices are probably stabilized. I don't know. Can someone um double check that for me? It's like what the house prices have done for the last couple years. But like eventually people are going to get to the point where why are they I guess the question is why are they selling the house? If it's their second or third property, maybe there's less of a rush. But if they can't afford to make their mortgage payments anymore because the interest rate changed or they lost their job or whatever the situation is, as time goes on, people are going to get more and more desperate and they're going to just going to have to change their mind in the fact that, hey, maybe I'm not going to make money on this house like I thought that I was going to. And that's when we're going to see a bit of a pullback even in fiat terms. That That's kind of my outlook for the next couple years. I don't know if you guys agree with that or not, but that's just it just makes sense in my head that that would happen. Makes me think about the um demographic shift as well where there's all these boomers, right? That are looking to retire, downsize. They have assets in real estate that they need to offload. And you know, you can look at like uh but again, like different generations will have different amounts of of children, which will like uh the whole fiat system and pension system and uh so much of this is all built on this idea in the past that generations were always going to get bigger. And it really isn't the case. It's quite the opposite actually. And you can see um how certain nations have really struggled with this and they try to offset it with immigration or uh different types of policies. Like Japan has basically dealt with it the best, but they they have one of the worst like generational gaps because it was so unaffordable and like the whole work ethic and everything was just structured to not have children, essentially. And then you have uh a couple of a very small generation looking after an older, larger generation. It just uh That's a hard way to prop up a Ponzi, which is essentially um fiat and and all of that. Um I did want to mention one thing uh before we move on though. Robin, do you mind just bringing up that um chart again by Jesse? If you look at the pump that MSTR is, that it's connecting and and safening value and putting it into Bitcoin. It's also providing lifelines within those ecosystems, which is kind of interesting. So, bond holders that are looking for income, they might have to make a a a switch and a and understand what a preferred equity is or or accept a pre- preferred equity risk instead to be able to get um short-term income and uh fiat income. And same with money, right? Money markets is what uh STRC is speculatively attacking or or being involved in, but all of those actually create lifelines within there that prop up some value within there because it is connected to Bitcoin. But you can see there's no lifeline, no connection to real estate. So, if there's all this monetary premium in real estate, and I can't think, like maybe somebody else out there that's more business-minded and understands real estate, I can't think of a way to to make real estate make sense where it is actually connected to Bitcoin. Um How do you monetize it with Bitcoin? I think the only thing that makes sense in that case is borrowing against your real estate. And again, it just goes back to the asset not even being the house. It's the asset is the loan. But you can get better loans with Bitcoin. Like you're Eventually, the loan interest rates are going to fall on Bitcoin, and they're going to be lower than mortgages cuz it's easier for lenders. Like anybody Anybody who has money can lend against Bitcoin at any time. If I wanted to If I had like an extra Let's say I had an extra million dollars, and somebody wants to borrow a million dollars, I can just set my own rate. Like, "Hey, give me 5%, and I'll take your Bitcoin as collateral. You can give me back that million dollars whenever you want, and I'll just take whatever my fee is out of your Bitcoin." Like the the It's that easy, and it'll just get easier and easier. So, like you said, it doesn't make sense. There's no way for real estate to survive through this. Real estate is going to die as an asset. It's not going to work. And then something else that uh something that >> As it should. As it should, exactly. And something else that Robin was talking about before, like there's so many incentives for people to buy real estate. Why? That makes no sense. We have a Apparently, we have a housing shortage, but you're telling people to buy more houses. That makes absolutely no sense. It just shows you that everything is a sketchy. Right? It's all just designed to it's it it it's told to us like, "Oh, uh it's because we care about you. We want you guys to be wealthy, and we want you guys to be secure and financially free." But that's not the reality. Like that that's not what they're trying to do. They're just trying to take more and more money out of us. Like it's just a way to suction more money out of the retail investor, out of the renters. It it's just more and more It's a way to take money out of the working class. And people don't see that. They think that real estate Oh, uh mortgages are a great way for people to be able to buy houses when they can't afford them. But in reality, no. Real Mortgages are the reason why house prices go up. It's because more and more demand is being brought from the future to the present. And now it it and and it's all falling apart, and you have to keep pumping more money into the system to make sure that people can actually pay back their loans. So, it's just It's a broken system. And And I think Bitcoin is killing it. Bitcoin's destroying that system. Yep. Yep. And you you have to look uh like I I was really thinking about that question because like why are there so many incentives? You you literally get pushed into houses from every single corner. You're an entrepreneur, buy homes. You're uh an employee, just buy a home, get a mortgage, all of those things. And if you think about you owning a country, and the country is not a country, it's like a company, how would you design? What do you want the people to own? You want the majority of their wealth to be something within your company. So, uh and that's a house. Like the the house is in the company. It's very hard to sell. It's uh super easy to tax. If you just increase the property tax, most people won't sell their homes, but they will pay the property tax. And if they don't, you have the man with the guns, and they can come to your home and collect it anyways. And so, what if you think about the the game video incentives from a nation-state, would you like your citizens to own Bitcoin or own something they can move out of the company out of the country, for example, a company, or do you want them to own a real estate property that literally cannot move out? Even if they move out, someone else has to buy it. And uh the property gets uh like it is it keeps on getting the higher. So, it's like the incentives are just screwed. So, like that's why there are so many tax brackets and so many things for uh people to to just like buy homes instead of like Bitcoin or something that flees very easily out of the company country. That's a That's a great way to look at it. That's perfect, actually. Imagine a a tax incentive for buying Bitcoin. Although, in the US, I'm pretty sure they had Bitcoin mining as an incentive last year put into place. But um anyways, I just want I wanted to kind of make another point on this too cuz I This is something I've actually been thinking about quite a bit. Just just in terms of where the world is, you know, how I feel about Canada, all these different things. It The conversation also changes a little bit based on how much Bitcoin you have right now. Like if you're somebody who's just getting into Bitcoin, let's say 2026, 2025, and you're trying to boost your stack, you don't feel like you have enough, that's a little bit of a different conversation. That's where I'm saying, put it all into Bitcoin, delay the house for a few years, let the market calm down a bit. Hopefully, you can ride this wave of Bitcoin that we're going to see in the next little while here. But for the people who already have a significant stack, that that's where it gets a little bit interesting for me. Because as much as I don't think that it's a great idea to buy a property in a city, I think the cities are kind of going to to personally, but owning land, I I think that's a much different conversation. Owning like desirable land with uh water, with a stream, with free space, with trees, with uh a big place for a garden, that's a whole different conversation to me. Uh and you can do a lot of different things with that. You can be pretty much self-sufficient in a lot of ways if you wanted to. And then you have much less reliance on your own government, too. I mean, yeah, they could take it. Yeah, it could come to that, but realistically, like in a place like Canada or the US or even the UK, probably, the odds of the government showing up at your door and saying, "Hey, we own this now." Possible, but not very high. And so, I think you can still look into options as a Bitcoiner. If you already have a a stack, and you don't really need more, uh I think land is actually a a super interesting conversation just for those reasons of like self-sustainability and less reliance on the gov. So, uh George, somebody asked um what do you consider a significant stack? I mean, I can't answer that. It depends. Like if Depends on the situation. Yeah, if if you're I'd say if you're 30 to 40 years old, I'd say a pretty sizable stack would be half a Bitcoin. If you're 60, probably a full Bitcoin. If you're in your 20s, you know, just get what you can. But it also so much depends on where you live. Like are you living in like middle of New York or like somewhere in India? Like like it's Like the living costs and like the your personal situation it's That's why this whole thing of like 0.1 Bitcoin, like two Bitcoin, I don't know. Like for someone, 0.1 Bitcoin could be huge. And for someone else, two Bitcoin could be nothing. So, uh like that that's like what what's a sizable stack. I have actually uh and I I do that at least once a month. I track my liquid net worth almost every single day. I do it since a very long time. It's just like a habit that I have. No that No that. Um and I look at my monthly expenses expenses, and then I look at the liquid net worth. Like not counting anything that I cannot get to. For example, I don't know. I I have a stake in MicroStrategy. Like that's like I count that as zero. Like I just liquid net worth. And so, just having that, and then calculating against your expenses. So, how long how many months can you live off your Bitcoin stack and all of your liquid net worth that you have, cash, strategy shares, stretch shares, ca- like Bitcoin in self-custody, all of the things that you have, dividing by your monthly expenses, then you have uh how many months you have. If you have over 12, you can divide it by 12, then you have the years you can live. And honestly, then you can ask yourself, "Okay, what is a sizable stack?" Because if your stack gets you one month, that's not a sizable stack. Like Like you should have more than that. If your stack gets you one year, you're doing better. If your stack gets you 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, you're doing really good. And so, um uh we always come back to time, I guess. Like time is the real currency. Because like um it it doesn't matter like what number you have on your Bitcoin wallet, it it matters like what does this translate in your actual life situation. Yeah, I always go back to like the depends on your age. It depends on your income level and it depends on your lifestyle. Like those are the three things and and some people might have point one of a Bitcoin, but they have a good job. They they're fairly confident that they're going to have income for the next decade. And that's just kind of like their long-term savings account almost. They don't ever plan to spend it. They don't ever plan to live off it. That's just kind of like their their nest egg in the background. And that's that's an awesome option like but in that scenario there you have income coming in. And so I think that that should be kind of you know something to think about for people when you're trying to figure out what size of stack you need. It It depends what you're going to use your Bitcoin for. It depends how much income you have coming in and it depends if you're somebody who you know buys designer clothing online or if you make your own hoodies. It depends on how much you think you need and as Robin alluded to there like what's your monthly expenses. I think just the exercise of going through that process Robin would be very beneficial for people. And you can look at it a couple different ways too like Rajada has a great spreadsheet where he considers this. But you could do exactly what Robin just said there. At Bitcoin's current price if you think it's going to double in the next couple years. If you think it's going to triple you can kind of go through each scenario and see okay if it doubles I'm actually going to have you know five years more. That's awesome. But you need to know that. You need to be aware of that. You need to have a pretty good clear understanding of your current situation. I really don't think that even most Bitcoiners have that. Go ahead Rajada. Based on my calculations I think 20 times is a really good number. So if you have 20 times your expense let's say for example you're expending $5,000 a month or $5,000 No, sorry. $60,000 a year today uh you probably need like $1.2 million worth of Bitcoin today in order to retire. But then you also have to consider what if what if Bitcoin were to collapse and the more conservative that you are the better the more likelihood it there is that you will never have to go back to work again. Wait. Wait do you do 20 times monthly or 20 times yearly expenses? Yearly. So 20 times yearly. So let's say for example if you have a $60,000 in annual expenses you're going to want to have like $1.2 million worth of Bitcoin. And $1.2 million worth what does that work out to be? That's probably I think it's close to 20 Bitcoin. Maybe like 18 Bitcoin or something like that today. Um Whatever the number is it 20 times your annual expenses I think works really well. Uh but that's that's if you use the legacy financial systems way of of spending money. So in the legacy financial system there's a study I don't know if you guys have heard of it but the the Trinity study where um you can withdraw 4% of your portfolio in the first year and then going forward you adjust for inflation. So let's say the first year you withdraw your 60k. Next year you're going to withdraw let's say you assume inflation's going to be 3%. Next year you're going to withdraw like 61,800. Then the following year you're going to adjust for 3% inflation following year. But with Bitcoin your returns are going to be higher. So you could potentially have more Like with my number it was 5%. So if you have 20 years of your expenses in Bitcoin you can withdraw 5% and you'll do fine. And that's if Bitcoin just I mean it's that's if that's assuming Bitcoin doesn't outperform, right? If Bitcoin massively outperforms like let's say it gets a 30% return you could probably get away with like 15 times your annual expenses in your Bitcoin stack. That's a good number. I like it. And by the way it's 16 Bitcoin. Uh so 16 15 okay. Yeah, 15. 15.9 currently. But yeah, it's uh I I like that um like It's it's funny because I found that method before I found Bitcoin and I measured my my stock portfolio before even found Bitcoin with with time. And it's just a fun way to grow wealth because you're not only looking at the asset side you're looking also at the uh budgeting of like what is my monthly expenses what is my income and all of that. And so tracking over time how many months or years you have to live without having to do anything is a really fun experiment and I think everyone that hasn't done that should go through just that for It's super easy. Just add up what you have as liquid net worth and divide it by your monthly expenditures. There you go. You have a monthly number divided by 12 you have the yearly number. Um and if that yearly number is is 20 like Rajada said you could retire right now. Like that that that that's a that's a crazy way of because there are people that underestimate their stack I think. There's a lot of people that think they don't have enough and then they make that make that exercise and they're like oh wow I could live like 50 years or 30 years or 20 years without doing anything and I would still be fine and that's assuming no growth of Bitcoin. Like just keeping up with inflation that's crazy. And so if you haven't done that exercise I urge you to do it like literally right now today. Yeah. No harm in having too much though even if you do the exercise, right? So I mean it all comes back to just stacking and you know being responsible and balanced in your in your life with your expenses and the lifestyle you want to have and um knowing that likely Bitcoin will do what it does and you'll have too much Bitcoin and that's a great problem to have at some point. Yeah, worst case you just help your community. You make your community better for future generations. You pass wealth on to your kids. I mean why is that a bad thing? I think that's great. Yeah, exactly. I think it's a good answer to that. Oh, sorry Robin. No, go ahead. I was just going to say I one of the exercises we're we're kind of talking about a couple different things here for exercise. But here's another one that people can do cuz I really feel like Bitcoiners myself included often have like this weird I don't even know what you'd call perception of yourself and your own wealth because everything that you see in front of you is measured in fiat terms and a lot of Bitcoiners don't keep a whole lot of fiat. And so I I couple different things here. Number one if look at your I love Robin's idea of like looking at your liquid liquid net worth every morning. Um but if you look at your Bitcoin balance assuming it's just going to go up like that's got to be a pretty good feeling. Imagine if you just had a bank account where you just saw the number going up over and over again you'd feel pretty good about yourself. And that's what most Bitcoiners are doing. They just don't really have that same sense of like you know pride and and understanding of what this is because those just like dollars are units. And they're probably worth a lot more than dollars too. But so that's one and the other one too is like get just look at your net worth. Robin mentioned liquid net worth liquid assets. But also take a look at your liabilities. Put one side your assets both liquid and long-term and then on the other side take all your liabilities. So your mortgage, your car loan, maybe some credit card debt, maybe a line of credit. And then look at what the total is because I really think that a lot of people see their Bitcoin balance and they don't factor that into how truly wealthy they are. And and you know the more confidence you have in yourself the better you feel about yourself the better you're going to show up day to day. So I think not just like for your own peace of mind but just like to I guess be more valuable and be more confident in the world. Like do that exercise cuz I think you're going to surprise yourself about really how wealthy you are even at today's fiat price of Bitcoin. And then you you know for another exercise you double the Bitcoin, triple the Bitcoin and it starts looking a little even more impressive for yourself. So I like doing that. That was a big big unlock that I had a couple years ago and it really changes the way I you know thought about things and thought about myself. 100% it's it's a it's Yeah, and it's a very good addition that you gave there because I look at the liquid net worth and I still have some debt that it's just like too low of an interest for me to to to to pay off. So I'm like just keeping it. Um but yeah, uh it's it's a it's an important exercise I think to to do. But I think um do you guys have closing thoughts on like real estate and that whole whole topic that we were discussing to do anything that we we might have missed anything that is important for people to consider in the question of coming back to the to the inspiration question like I stand before buying a home or just like investing in in Bitcoin. Yeah. I think it's important to consider how many houses your Bitcoin is going to buy in the future. So today let's say your your Bitcoin buys you a quarter of a house. Let's say you have one Bitcoin and can you can buy and a house is 400k. So just rounding let's say one Bitcoin's 100k you can buy 0.25 of a house with a Bitcoin. At some point that same Bitcoin is going to buy you a whole house. Then it's going to buy you two houses. It can buy three houses, four houses, five houses. Is it worth it for you to not buy Bitcoin? Is that a smart decision? I think most people are going to come to the conclusion that it isn't because at some point even if you buy more rental properties. Let's say you can buy 10 rental properties today. At some point you'll be able to buy 20. 30, 50, 100. And and I think that's key to understand because that that just goes to show you that over time the price of a house is going to fall in terms of Bitcoin whereas the price of Bitcoin is going to rise in terms of houses. Completely agree. And I would also just add that um there's nuance with all of this. I think Rajada is just generally correct with that that your Bitcoin is going to be able to buy you more houses into the future. I mean, obviously. Uh there's nuances with do you like being uh a homeowner? Do you like being a renter? Do you like the flexibility? But then flexibility with renting is also an issue if your landlord's bad or you're you know, there's all sorts of things. So, there's lots of nuance with what we've talked about. This has just been uh our thoughts on it, some education, some things that hopefully you can begin thinking because your scenario is going to be specifically unique if you're if you're questioning this. You're looking at a house that we have no idea what the details are. Uh we know what Bitcoin is, but we don't understand all the nuance of your specific situation. So, hopefully this has sparked some um ability for you to evaluate that more accurately and more concise. So, that's our hopes here. Uh Rajat, you said it's going to buy one house then two house then three house and then 100 houses. Because and the reason I say is because if you actually take the I know you guys have heard me say this before, but simple math, you take the total number of sats divided by the total number of houses in the world and it equals about 1 million sats. So, if only houses existed in the world, if that was the only asset we had to measure, the average cost of a house would be a million sats uh measured in a Bitcoin world. So, you can actually buy 100 houses with that one Bitcoin. Um but the thing that I'd say is if you have a significant stack of Bitcoin or you're satisfied with your stack, I know you should never be satisfied, but people who hear that understand what I'm saying. Uh start scoping things out. Start looking at where you want to live, where you want to be long-term. Start looking at land, what that land has. Um if you're somebody who's just getting into Bitcoin now and you're deciding between a house and Bitcoin, I'd say go into Bitcoin. No questions asked from my perspective. And that's that's where I'll cut and dry it for you guys. I I think sometimes it's not even about the financial situation. It's more about um like your stability, your quality of life. If renting is not going to give you the quality of life that you want and let's say for example, you have a you have a landlord, the landlord could kick you out, right? And if you need stability, maybe that doesn't work for you. Maybe owning a house would be a much better situation for you and maybe that's something that you might want to consider. You could also let's say for example, there are people out there who get duplexes and they buy the house, they rent out the other half. Basically, they pay off their their cost of owning or of living with the other person's rent. And that could work really well, right? There There are obviously ways to do it, but again, it takes work. To me personally, I'd rather just work on learning how to educate people better, and that's my craft. I don't care to save money on on rent just to to get another part-time job. You're you're you're saving money on rent, but again, you have to put in the time, the effort, the work to actually make the right decision. And if you make the wrong decision, let's say your tenant turns out to be the wrong person, that could seriously ruin your life. Like that that that can have a material impact on how your life is going to be going forward. So, you have to make sure that you're willing to take that risk. I've never had a good landlord. Uh hopefully she's not watching this. >> [laughter] >> But uh with that um uh we have two super chats today. So, I'll I'll just hit them before we uh uh before we end the stream today. Uh the first one from uh T Brisket 9324 interested in your guys' thoughts on timing Bitcoin's 4-year cycle, which appears well intact. Been following Ben Cowen's channel for a few months. Are other assets more attractive at times? Of course, they are. Of assets are definitely uh differently have a different attractive level if they're oversold, overbought, like uh uh yeah, definitely. But um good luck accurately timing them consistently. That's where people trip up with this, right? Is you might you might think you're an excellent trader cuz you did it once in once, twice, three times in a row. Um and that confidence is probably going to make you allocate heavier, maybe use leverage, these kind of things, uh be more certain with your predictions, and nobody has a crystal ball. So, um you know, if the 4-year like uh I just think that I think that selling Bitcoin to get more Bitcoin is really counterintuitive. I think it does not end up working out well for people typically. I think buying more Bitcoin when it is clearly underpriced will uh uh make you have more Bitcoin in the future. So, yeah, you can look at all these things, you can think about them all, but like the stress, the work of actually trading these things uh because no other asset is like Bitcoin in the in the way that you can hold this thing for 100 years. Like right now, like oil, the maybe there's a big short on oil futures. Maybe the Strait of Hormuz hasn't affected [snorts] the global oil markets yet because of that uh strategic short on the futures paper side of it. Maybe that the effects will be felt if in the future. That's probably like a 6-month period of potentially being able to trade something like oil, but oil is not something you want to own forever because oil is just uh becoming more and more easily abundant and we're just creating more and more energy into the future. So, it's not something you can hold for 100 years. You can't hold oil futures for 100 years or an oil stock for 100 years and expect it to outperform Bitcoin. So, you could trade it, but good luck with that. I thought it was pretty funny actually um during the pandemic, people were trading oil and you remember Do you guys remember it went down to zero and it went down to negatives? There were times when people were trying to offload their position and it was too close to expiry and they couldn't offload and nobody wanted to buy it. And that's why >> had to take they had to take delivery, too. Did you see Did you see that one on Reddit? Yeah, I saw that was crazy. They had to take delivery of like 2,000 barrels of oil and like you had the details were that you have to have um like a shipping com- companies' signature to accept it and it was pretty crazy cuz like like let's say let's say somebody's just trying to trade oil and they think, "Oh yeah, it's going to go up for a little while and I'll just hold on to it." And then they like get called into something or let's say let's say for example, you get injured and you go to the hospital and you don't have access to your computer or you're going to a coma or some I don't know. I don't know what could happen. There could be some wild scenarios out there. But let's say you have to take let's say you have to take delivery of 2,000 barrels of oil. What are you going to do? You're screwed. >> you going to How are you going to fulfill your end of that agreement? And you could get fined if you don't. So, like that that could be really terrible. That could be really difficult. And plus, so this person said um he's been following Ben Cowen's channel for a few months. There are times when Ben Cowen is wrong as well. In 2023, uh so I just I I saw this. I spoke to somebody before he he in my community, he said, "Oh, Ben Cowen was wrong in 2023." And I just searched it up. He was wrong. He said that Bitcoin is going to go down, but it actually went up. And maybe for him, it doesn't really matter cuz he maybe he has a stack of Bitcoin that he's holding on to and he's just trading a small amount. But what if your what what if you own no Bitcoin and this is the thing that you're depending on to make your decision and you own zero and then the price doubles out of nowhere. What are you going to do? You're screwed. You're screwed. You're left out of the market. It's not where you want to be and um And he's not going to make up for your losses. No. And he's not going to care as well because He doesn't know you. He doesn't know you and the way he makes money is by talking about trading. So, uh doesn't really matter about his own personal positions either, to be honest. It's about income for him uh talking about it. So, the only like like the more guaranteed returns you have is by investing for the long term. So, that's why I didn't even That's why I said like selling at any point is a short-term uh you have a short-term thesis. Buying is having a long-term thesis. That's why they call it longing and shorting. Right? Uh maybe that's not why, but you know, you can analogize that. And uh yeah, so that's like the only thing that you can generally give as advice is be super long in your time preference and hold Bitcoin. Anything else is really just like gambling. Gambling. Yeah, and that when you think about how much time you have in a day and how much energy energy's finite. You only have so many hours in a day. And if you're trying to figure out what oil's going to do and what the stock market's going to do and what this crypto coin's going to do and what Bitcoin's going to do, you're wasting your time. And I think that you could actually use those resources much more efficiently to actually protect what you have. So, instead instead of spending all this time and energy trying to figure out what's going to go up next and chasing the next shiny thing, if you just understand what you're actually holding right now and dedicate that time and energy to protecting it, you're going to be a million miles ahead in a decade and you're going to sleep a lot better. That That's what it was for me. I got rid of all my shitcoins, everything else cuz then I didn't have to watch the charts anymore. I didn't have to try to time things. I was just like, "Okay, I'm in Bitcoin. I'm going to protect it and I'm going to do pretty well here, I think." So, very simple answer there for me, but that's I I wouldn't bother with it. I think most people are looking for a quick I think most people are just looking for a quick dopamine hit. There was actually a guy who I spoke to. Um he had 10 Bitcoin and he was saying, "Oh, I think Bitcoin's going to go lower. So, I'm going to sell what I have and I'm going to buy back when it goes down." And it and I don't know what's going to I don't know if it's going to go lower, but when he spoke to me about this, it was at like 62K. I don't know if he pulled the trigger on selling it, but he seemed very confident and he was thinking, "Yeah, I'm going to get more Bitcoin by doing this. I'm I'm going to I'm going to be successful." But like that's the thing, right? Let's say if it if it does the opposite of what he expected and that's exactly what it did. It went to 75, 76K. I don't know if it'll go lower, but again, if it doesn't, is he going to be able to get back that 10 Bitcoin? I don't think so. Yeah, and if it does go lower, the entire time it's going up right now, he's thinking, "Did I make a mistake? Am I Am I going to have to buy back in? Now I get 9 and 1/2 Bitcoin instead of 10." And then like, how much patience does he have in these very emotional position where he isn't allocated to something he wants to own more of. It's It's greed. It's greed that that drives people to do this. And I think that um I I think that it's a good idea to just check our greed and to make logical decisions for, you know, the long term of our life. That was what it was in his case, cuz he had a significant amount of wealth. He just wanted more. Like he Like 10 Bitcoin if he He didn't really understand Bitcoin, cuz clearly if he did, then he would know that 10 Bitcoin is more than enough. But like he didn't understand it. He just wanted more. He was more concerned with catching up to his friend. His friend had like 20 Bitcoin or something like that. He just wanted to double it. And he was okay with taking that gamble. And I don't think he had really thought about what would happen if Bitcoin does the opposite of what I think it will. To To be fair as well, it's probably the same or similar greed that led him to be able to have 10 Bitcoin in the first place. So, he's following that same instinct, um but uh without necessarily understanding the full risk of what he's gambling there. Yeah. 100% it's B- People uh when greed kicks in, uh people make bad decisions. That That That's a Greed is a is a is a bad one. Um we have uh one more uh a super chat from Isaac Newton 98. Um he says, "Family lost family farm of close to 100 years to do not paying property taxes. It has made me extremely jaded towards the system. You never truly own." That's the thing as uh that we talked already about um it's You You don't really own it. Like you just even if you buy it, you just still kind of rent it. But it's a It's a property tax. What is property taxes in Canada? Is [cough] it Is it a lot? Like is that like uh 1% 2%? It's based on the province. I think it's around 1%. And it's based off your last assessment as well. >> Yeah. It can be pretty significant, which which is also like you could have a like the housing market can fluctuate, but then your assessment will be done like in 1 year and then won't be done for a little while. So, you could The prices could go up like crazy. You have a massive assessment, and then the value of your home's actually dropped, and yet you're still paying property taxes for this uh inflated price. Um and they're debasing the currency, so the prices always on average going to go up, so so is the property taxes in line with that. It's I mean, that's a terrible story that Isaac Newton has. Um yeah, that's that's horrible. And it There's a big The way I talk about it is there's this large scale of being able to own something. And everything you have in your life is on that scale of of actual ownership. And Bitcoin is about as much as you could ever own something is having the private keys to be able to move a Bitcoin transaction. And, you know, gold is somewhere in there, too, but gold can get confiscated. It can get physically taken from you. Whereas, Bitcoin I think is even higher on that scale of ownership, because you can make it so that it's harder for somebody else to take it from you. So, I think um again, [snorts] I think ownership is on that big scale, and I think real estate and land and things because of something like property tax, and it's essentially just a huge lease that you have on this from the the government or the crown behind it even, um that they can just take that from you if if you don't pay this tax that they're forcing on you. Like that is That's basically like I mean, taxes is always just essentially theft under the the um the threat of violence. And that's what this is, right? They physically it could have gone down to them physically having to move you off of that property. That's That's violence. Pushing you away from a piece of like a you know, square foot that you're standing on in land, that's violence. Thanks, Joel, for reminding me. I almost forgot today. Um we have to shout out to the BTC Mastermind uh channel. It's where we are taking questions in, where I uh where we get uh uh inputs. So, like if you have any questions, any things that you want to have an episode around, any kind of inspirations for us for what we should talk about in those weekly sessions. I search in all of the comments of this channel and this channel only. Um what are questions that people comment on the videos on live streams and all of that, and take them into account. So, if you uh want to post some questions after the live stream is done, or your live or your question kind of got like lost in the in the live stream chat because we couldn't keep up with uh too many messages, just post them as a uh as a question in the comments, because there we get like two a week or three a week currently. And in the live stream it's like, I don't know, 100 something like that in like an hour. I don't know exactly the statistics. So, if you want to uh post some questions, give inputs on uh what we should talk about uh BTC Mastermind channel. Uh also long term, we will be only hosting that conversation at on that channel, and we'll slowly uh uh go on this channel only. Uh shout out to the many people that already are on this channel. Uh in the beginning like 1 month when we launched it, uh like two people or one person or something like that watched, and this time it was consistently around 20 to 25 people that watched on that channel. So, thank you so much for everyone that is watching on this channel. Um uh just a reminder that long term, this weekly format uh will be on that channel. Um and yeah, anything else you guys want to add today? Yeah, get your asses over there. >> [laughter] >> Let's uh let's have everybody in one spot. I It just works way better. Uh but I actually really love the the play there, Robin, cuz I mean, that's perfect. It's you pretty good odds if you got a question or discussion, uh leave a comment on there. And it's not like we're coming up with this stuff. It's based on what people are asking for. It's The supply's based on the demand. So, great topic today, boys. Uh hopefully people get a lot of value from this. Somebody in the chat was asking if they can send sats for some donations and support. We don't really have anything set up yet. I don't know if we will or not. But uh we're just having fun doing this. We We like talking about this stuff. Hopefully people are getting value from it. And uh it's been another great week. So, thanks everybody in the chat. But yeah, try to uh try to migrate over to the the BTC Mastermind. Once we have X amount of people watching the lives, and we'll just kind of close it off. But it just makes more sense all around just to have everybody in the same spot. It's easier for us to track, easier for people to converse back and forth. And it's very easy. You just literally go click a button, subscribe, and show up there next week. Awesome. Then uh thank you so much, guys, and uh I'll see you guys uh next week. Thanks, guys. Thanks, everybody. Later, guys. >> [music]