The Power of Giving | What Sudha Murthy Said Will Change Your Thinking

I did visit Berkeley, maybe 29 years back. My brother was a student in Department of Astrophysics here. And Berkeley is one of the outstanding university. Um The testimony of that is he did his PhD from Berkeley, my my brother and straight way he went to Caltech and got tenure within a year and a half or something 2 years. He said Berkeley was the best university. I have a great memory when he was here as a student. I used to come here and spend some time. But particularly the library, you know, I used to spend a lot of my time in library. That That time there was no internet. I'm talking in 1978-79 time. I also met Chitra Dinukarney who was a student of English literature here and later she became a very famous writer. I have great memories of this city, Berkeley university. And later I was not able to make it only this is the occasion long time I'm coming. Thank you once again giving me for giving me this award. I really do not know whether I deserve it or not because um sometimes I feel what work I have done really that distinguished work. Maybe anybody in my position would have done the same because if you love your country, you do that work. That's as simple as that. I was telling Professor Ray that uh um you know, I hardly come out of my country because uh my work is only in in my country. I don't work anywhere else. Not even in next neighbor Bangladesh or Sri Lanka. I don't even work. I work only in India. And that's only in six states, not more. And we have different problems every day. Uh like sometimes I say we save money so that we can do some other development work, but that year there'll be a calamity. Like in the last 10 years there were eight calamities, you know, Gujarat earthquake there's tsunami then there were uh riots in Gujarat and then again floods in Orissa, drought in Karnataka and Maharashtra. So every year I think whether we are in the floods or in the drought or some natural disaster. And work our work requires tremendous amount of time and time and passion, you know. So I'm always in the village it's so maybe 10 days or 8 days I come to city and clean all my clothes and go back. Somebody asked me today when I was giving a lecture at Stanford that your husband talks about corporate, how to make profit and what is the GDP and whatever you talk in a different language. I said my domain is so different, my customers are so different, my interaction with them is so different than the big city or the corporate world. Though we get money from corporate houses, okay, that's the main source of income. Actually I'm not going to talk about what is philanthropy, why one should do etc. or definition and all. I want to tell what I have learned from philanthropy and which has affected me personally in my real life. And that made me to write all my experiences in three non-fiction books that is wise and otherwise. I say always I say that I'm good in my work otherwise I really do not know what is the outside world. And second one is the old man and his God that I discovered my country only through poor people. Otherwise I did not know. I knew my country has so many states or different languages, different food patterns, all those things but I really realized what India is is only through my work and that is too through poor people. They taught me great lessons. That is old man and his God. Third one is how I taught my grandmother to read. That is my personal thing. My grandmother was illiterate and at the age of 62 she started learning and that gave me a motivation in life that if you want to achieve anything in life, age is no bar. It's your mindset. Uh some of them I want to talk today that uh what philosophy taught me and which changed my mindset. You know, I was a um I was a full-fledged professor in a Bangalore University in computer science and things were right on my side. Uh my husband was doing very well in his business and um one day my daughter, that time she was 15 years old, she used to read for a blind child. You know, she was a scribe. There was a blind boy and she used to write on his behalf in the examination. She was a scribe. And uh she came and told me that that boy by the name Anand Shah, he wants to join St. Stephen's College in Delhi. It's a very prestigious and expensive college. Being bright, he would have got seat, but being poor, it was a difficult for him to maintain. I was very busy as head of the department in Bangalore. You know, you know, in the Indian universities, when you're head of the department, you do administration as well as academic both. So, I was very busy in setting up the question paper because that's a big thing in India and number of students will not be like 20, 30. We have thousands of students. So, you have to have the secrecy and all those papers should be kept inside, etc. So, in a you know, I was so much worried about the examination. So, I told my daughter, "Oh, you can sponsor or something." And she told me, "Uh where do I have money because you don't give any pocket money. And you whatever we want you buy, you don't even give 10 rupee or a a dollar in my hand and how can I sponsor?" And she told me, she made a remark. She was only 15 and she made a remark. Um Amma, that's the way how South Indians call their mother. Amma. She said, "You are a well-read, well-traveled, uh and educated lady. If you do not want to do any social work, then you don't have a to talk about anybody about social work. What's your duty in life? What are you looking forward in life? Is it glory or glamour or money? What's that? What makes you to work? And she was upset and she went away and I went to the university examination center with my books in my hand because if somebody studies in India, they understand we have two examinations, one in October and then in April. What questions appear in October should not appear in April. That's what we take care. Okay? Otherwise, you lose your post. So, I was very busy in eliminating the questions of the October. I went to the senate hall. I sat there and my mind did not concentrate on question paper. I said, "Really speaking, what am I looking in life?" It is not a daughter of 15 who had asked me. I I questioned that one to myself. >> [snorts] >> Everybody should question sometime in their life, "What am I doing? For whom do I doing? And what is the ultimate aim in my life? Am I in the same direction or some other direction?" When I questioned that, I went on thinking about my own life. I was 45 years old at time. I said, "First 25 years I worked for the ex-academic excellence of my own career. I should never get a second rank. I should be all at the top in the list. I never bothered about anything else." Next 20 years I worked for Infosys. You know, it's the beginning because it's a company started with $250 with absolutely no money and six enthusiastic people started the company and I was I was a programmer when there was no programmer. I was an accountant. I was a secretary. Call any job, I'm there except the chairman post. >> [laughter] >> So, and two small children saved every penny so that company should prosper. Always think the betterment of the company than your individual. Then the 20 years I spent without going anywhere else. It's only you have to save money and bring the company up. And now company is doing fairly well. Children have grown up. And I don't require to excel in anything in academy but at the age of 45 um I was not at all in the academic line that time. So, I was thinking what what is my aim in life? And I felt it. Mhm, I felt sincerely that what have I done to my own country? I made good money. I have a good name. I'm a very well read person. I travel a lot. That's all my personal thing, but what have I done to my country? Country where I'm born, a country which is poor. The country where there are all extremes are there, very rich people, very poor people, and majority of them are poor. And they stay in below poverty line in rural area. What have I done? To be born in a rich family is not your desire. You're born there. Or to be well educated in a good family where you get education, it is not that you work for it, but you get it because you're born. I was born a family of professors. My father was a professor and a doctor. He helped I mean he was encouraged all the time that you should study well. I was not from a rich family but extremely academic oriented family. But someone who has a better quality than me is born, you know, after that unknown line of the poverty line. And that person, what is his or her fault? Why that person has to be born there and lose all the opportunity just because someone is poor? I went on thinking about that next eight days. Then I decided it. If God is kind to me and gives me good health, I will not work for Infosys. I will not work for my children. I will not work for myself. I will work only for the poorest of the poor in India. That's my mission. And that's the way I thought of philanthropy on my personal level. I said, I have to work because I have an obligation to my country, my society. And it I I'm I'm not in any dilemma or I am not in a the assumption that I will eliminate poverty. No, I don't have because there are many reasons why people are poor. There are many reasons why people do not want to get out of it. There are many reasons why it continues. In my lifetime, what I can do to reduce the suffering of at least some section of the society. I think that's enough for me. I don't want any reward or award or fame in that. Rewards and awards came accidentally with the work, but that was never my aim. My aim was that I must help people because it's my sheer duty, nothing else. It is nothing great. I'm doing anything extraordinary. It has to be done that way. I did not know word how to start philanthropy, what to talk to when the clients come. Our clients are not intelligent. I mean they are intelligent, but they're not rich people. They are poor. That's why they suddenly come to us. They come and sit in front of us. And in 15 minutes in an interview, I must decide the person is telling lie. I'm talking about my experiences in India. They are different in US. They are different in different countries. My experience is in my country. People may tell lie. People may tell truth. They may manipulate the words. I do not know. So, when person comes and sits in front of me, I should measure the person's difficulty. Is it true or false? If it is true, what extent I can help? If it is If I'm going to help, then what are the different ways to help? And how long I can help? How do I know how to do all those things? And there is no book on this. There is no teacher on this. It's only by experience. And I did not have any experience. I sat first day in Infosys Foundation. I was wondering, am I coming in the right place or wrong place? Is it an emotional decision? Because I resigned my post as head of the Department of Computer Science. I became only mere lecturer. And that is for 3 hours a week, one credit, three credit course. That's all I will take, I told them. Because I like teaching, I like to interact with youngsters. I don't want to lose teaching ability, so. I'm thinking, you know, all alone sitting in my office then, what am I doing? Is it a right thing? Will I be able to How will I be able to measure the difficulties of others? Unless you understand it. How to understand that? One method is you should suffer. Or you should stay or with such people or interact with such people more often so that you will have 80% of that knowledge. That's how I started my touring in a leprosy colony, sex workers, street children, runaway children from home. Orphanage, old age home, name a thing. Everything I said I must understand their difficulties. Why do they do like this? What is the solution for that? And that led opened a new door for me to understand what India is. Until that, for me India is a country with several states. Those are the capitals, these are the languages, these are the costumes, these are the food. Okay, all those things, but when I realized all of them are connected by one simple principle, all of them are poor. Whom with whom I work, they are all poor. They all need help. They all need Different people need different type of help. For example, I work with sex workers. The most difficult job in my work is working with sex workers in India. They are not open because they are really, you know, bitter about the experiences. And they don't want to talk to you. Actually, it took for me 3 years to have a dialogue with them. And at the end, every workers tell me, "I don't want money from you. I want a patient hearing. Why I got into this sex trade or sex working area? You are not our desire. We we cheated many times. we have been sold. And everybody wants a patient hearing and they want this word at the end, it was not your fault. Everybody wants that sympathetic word, it was not your fault. When you work with students, you require different. When you work with housewives, you require different kind of mindset. So, it it opened a door to me and greatest lessons I learned in my life from the poorest of the poor people. No university taught me, no book taught me. Nobody taught me, but poorest of the poor taught me the great lessons. Let me give you an example. I was about 9 years back, I was working in uh Tamil Nadu. And it was uh November, month of November and you get uh mid uh November uh rains, heavy rains because if there is a depression in the in Bay of Bengal, you get rains in Tamil Nadu. I was traveling by car and my car, as usual when you don't want the car, it gets spoiled, you know. In some 8:00 in the night, the car did not move and my driver said it takes another hour or hour and a half to get it repaired. It was pouring. He said you find out some place and you rest there and I will be back after 2 hours. I said, "Okay." I took an umbrella and it drenched. I saw a small temple. It is a small village. I went inside and there were I was wondering what to do because Tamil Nadu people speak Tamil and I can't speak Tamil. In India, to do our work, you require five, six languages, but my knowledge of Tamil is poor. Whereas, I can speak Marathi, Konkani, to some extent Bengali, some extent Oriya, great extent Hindi, you know, all those things, but not Tamil. I said, "Doesn't matter." Many times I realized, you know, when people want to converse with you, if you can do not know language, you converse through your heart. You tell whatever you want to tell, they tell in your language, they will tell in their language, but you understand that. I said, "Okay, let me go." And I sat there. You know, the one of the Shiva temple one of the India has many gods. Shiva is one of the prominent god. And it was night. There was no lamps. There was only an oil lamp. And it was so quiet. I saw husband and wife. Um husband was blind. He was almost 80 years. And he his wife was there. And he said, "Can I do some, you know, pooja?" That's the way how we do worship our god. And I said, "Okay, you do." When he did that, I gave him 100 rupee bill. Because I knew they were very poor. And he touched because he was blind. He can't see. He said, "Oh, it's more than 10." I said, "No, it doesn't matter. Keep it with you." Then I told him, uh how I mean anyway 1 and 1/2 hours I have to spend. Being a teacher, being a lady, I speak. Being a writer, I talk more. We can talk to the power of three. So, I said, "Okay, let me converse with him." So, I asked him. Then he said he doesn't have any children. They are old couple. They are in that village for long time. And uh you know, he does the pooja every day. And he gets some money from the villagers. And he's doing okay. I felt very bad. This man is 80 years old. Any Any disease can come to him. Who will support him? He doesn't have any children. So, I told him, "I will go back uh to Bangalore. And I didn't tell my name." Actually, it's good. Many times I have should not tell my name because people expectation also changes in India. So, I said, "I'll go back and I'll send you some money. You keep that money in the nationalized bank. And every month you get some interest so that it will be useful to you in case you fall sick." He said, "I don't know child. I don't know who you are. But I want to tell you something." He said, "In life, you should say somewhere enough. Draw a line saying that enough is enough. And I don't require your money." Actually, in my work, I hardly come across someone like that. People who come to me, if I give half a million rupee, they say, "Oh, it was such a small amount. She could have given 2 million." Somebody calls me for something else at the end they will ask some other money something else. You know, I go to school or college inauguration at the end there is always an appeal to me. Mrs. Murthy, will you do this project or will you give this money? Sometimes you are able to give, sometimes you are not able to give depending on the project. It's pure merit basis. When you don't give people get upset, they don't even call you next time. Even though they meet they won't even talk. People who get also are very upset with me because they ask something they get only 10% of that. So, either way I have more enemies. Here is the old man who doesn't know who I am and he tells me I don't want any money from you. He says I'm old. If I if you give money, I'll keep it in the bank. Now, all these days these villagers have fed me because I do some puja so they come and give me rice. We are living like this. Now, the moment everybody comes to know that I kept the money in the bank then there will be some thief who will be behind me. When I'm and I'm blind when I'm taking it here, you know, he will harm and the other people will feel anyway this old man has money, why should we help him? Whole equilibrium will be lost. And child, I'm 80 years old. I really feel I I don't require anything because I'm contented in my heart. Any amount of money cannot be traded with money. Content cannot be traded with money. Somewhere in line life in you have to draw a line. I don't need and I have drawn that line. Don't disturb my equilibrium. I may not agree with all these principles because if we are if we are the line of content in a very young age then I will not study at all. I'll be at home. I'm very contented. If I'm in my you know, even if we had started Infosys with the content we would not have grown. But somewhere he said that is true. Somewhere in life you have to draw a line and say goodbye. I learned the great lesson and I said that's the greatest lesson in my life is I must draw a line somewhere to say I don't need these things. And I drew a line at that time. I said okay, these are the things that require in my life and I don't have regrets for that. Align or a content within yourself is the most important lesson one should learn. And without that, you're always behind unknown uh you know uh what do you call an unknown horse which is always galloping and you go behind that. You don't know where it takes you. I was working in Kalahandi which is very famous for all the diseases in the world. You go there and it was so difficult to come back because there was always galloping uh jaundice they say 36 hours you die. Okay, it's very So, normally to reach Kalahandi you have to go to Bhubaneswar. To reach Bhubaneswar you have to take two flights before. And you get down there and take a train. And there is no express train. Even though there is an express train, every tribal person stop the train and gets in without ticket because it's a tribal area. And nobody can uh question anybody because everybody's language is a different, everybody's life is a different. Then you get down a place on the Bhavanipatna and then you take a jeep. 14 14 km you have to road by jeep. And then there is a river. You have to cross the river, ferry the river actually. And then you have to walk 7 km. Then you reach this Kalahandi. I mean, in the in the interior jungles of Kalahandi which is Kalahandi starts after Bhavanipatna also. But interior where we used to work, you have to go deep inside. It takes all kinds of transport, you know, a train, a ferry, jeep and then you have to walk. I met an old man there. Someone said he's 102 years old. And in that entire tribal area everybody's hair was jet black. And when they saw my hair, they asked me, "What do you apply to your hair to become grayish?" 70 plus everyone has a jet black gray hair. I knew they can't afford to have a you know, dying facility because they're really poor people. And they were surprised that I have something unusual silver color. So, what I must have done. So, I was talking to him. I felt very strange when I met a man of 120 in a good health and good memory. I said, "Let me ask him some questions." I said, "Who is ruling India?" He said, "East India Company." That means he he's not even aware India is independent. Then I asked him, "Who is your Prime Minister?" He says, "Goriwali Rani." That means a fair-skinned queen. That is a Queen Victoria. And you know, his answers were so different than my imagination. And he you know, I felt very I've never met anyone like that in my work, you know. Someone who belongs to 100 years old back and your knowledge 200 years back. Then I showed him a currency, Indian currency, and I showed him and said, "You know, it's an important piece of paper because currency he won't understand. If you take this money paper, you can trade." He said, "What can I get with this paper?" I told him, "You can buy matchsticks. That is very difficult in this tribal area. You can buy clothes and all those things." He laughed at me. Then he said, "Okay, you have quizzed me so many questions. Now I will ask you one simple question." I thought, "Okay, I'm thinking of this man from Kalahandi. What he will ask me? Let me see." Sometimes you underestimate people, you know. They are so smart. He said, "What is not yours? If you take it, is it not a theft?" I said, "Of course it is theft. When this is not mine and if you take it, it's theft." He says, "Look at this beautiful area, Kalahandi or the Orissa. If anyone is from Orissa, they understand it's a beautiful place. Nature is very kind there. You have a so many riverlets, beautiful forest, thick forest." He says, "Rain comes on its own, doesn't ask your permission. River flows on its own, doesn't ask my permission. This land is created by God. The trees come on their own. You people from the city come here, cut the trees. Trade this land for this piece of paper and give to somebody when this land doesn't belong to you. How can you trade this land? It's not yours. Are you not a thief? And actually it struck me that in life you know, just because we trade we do, we think it's we know everything, but the man from Kalahandi told me, "Nature is a gift of the God and we are trading it for our own selfish motive." I said I'm I really I did not have any answer to tell him. I said, "The great wisdoms come from such people who have seen enough in life." I can give you many experiences where I felt I really do not know in front of them. I was working in a leprosy colony in one of the remote area in Karnataka. And then I wanted to count how many women are there. That many sarees, you know, you know, I wanted to give them something to wear or something some help I wanted to do. I was counting and one person said there's a lady inside the hut and uh her name is some lady Gangamma or something. I said, "No, unless I see the person I can't list." You know, because by this time I learned people tell lie. You go So, then let me check. Then I called her name in her dialect. She did not come. I said, "Okay, she didn't come. Let me go inside and meet her." I went inside. In a minute I came outside. The reason was it was a dark hut. There was no light. I mean, of course, afternoon I went. There's a lady and she was sitting like this. She did not have any clothes on her body. And she told me, "Amma, you told me to come out and tell my name. I didn't come because I'm a lady. I can't come without clothes. I'm so poor I don't have piece of cloth with me to cover my body." I sat there and that was in the early years of my foundation. I started crying. I said, "What is the use of independence? Dollars, billion dollars, Bollywood music, we talk all those things. Here is my country where after 55 years years of independence, that time it was 55. Years of independence, a woman is not to come out because she doesn't have a set of clothes to cover her body. Not expensive clothes, an ordinary cloth to cover her body. What is my country? What it means to me? And I started crying there. And then of course, you know, I had my own bag in my sari. My sari I gave away. Something I did. That struck me so much. I said, "If I say my country is progressing, in that case, in my country everybody should get two square meals a day. In my country, children should study up to the 12th class. In my country, women should have a set of cloth, two sets of cloth actually, one to wear and one to have clean. And then only I call my country as progressed. Otherwise, I will not call my country as progressed. And such people give me inspiration in life to I should work. I must work for those people, not for any other award or reward. If they come, it's well and good. If they don't come, still it's okay. But I have to work for such people. They are my source of inspiration because they they are they belong to my country. I have an obligation towards them. In my work also many times I have been cheated. Though we are very careful when we talk, when we do, we don't promise immediately. We say we'll think it over. We'll get back. One day one person came and told me that his son is suffering from cancer. Young child. Then I said, "I want a proof. Without proof, we don't give money." He said, "Okay, he'll bring proof." Next day he brought the child only. The child, you know, stomach was bulging. The child was suffering and And see. She little daughter. I said, "No, no, don't bring the child now." I said, "Okay." He said, "I require 2 lakhs that is 200,000 rupees." 200,000 rupees is maybe I don't know how many dollars. You should tell divide by 40. It's $5,000 maybe $5,000. He said, "I require $5,000 for the operation." I said, "That much we can't give because we do get many applications. Maybe I'll give 25,000 rupees maybe 1,000 and 1250 dollars one 1,250 dollars I will give. The rest you collect from everybody." He said he thought for a minute. He said, "Okay, no problem. But will you give me a letter that this is so and so is suffering from cancer and Infosys Foundation has given 1250 dollars in the for the treatment of the child." I said, "Okay, that is not a problem because he can produce that letter and get some money. There's nothing wrong in that." So we give the money. We give the letter. And normally I computerize everything, you know, whatever work we do. Maybe because my background is computerized computer and that helps me a lot because everything is so systematic nothing is ad hoc or nothing is that oh, I gave on such and such a day when it was raining or I gave it on such and such a day and Mr. Murthy was here. Nothing of that. Every day every appeal the name of the person who has appealed what kind of treatment or the cause how much money we have given and action for that. So action column I wrote check after 6 months. That is the action I wrote. And after 6 months it started beeping saying that you have not taken action. Then I said, "Okay, he told me he'll get operated in such and such a hospital." I called up the hospital. By this time, you know, like how finance people have their network, even social entrepreneurs have their own networks, you know. We know the hospitals. We know the old age homes. We know the adoption agencies. We know orphanages. We know street children where they sleep. We know where they take drugs. So we all we also know where the dens are there. What time who is available where all those things. We also have our own network. So I called up that hospital and asked, "Is there any a by this name who was operated in the last 6 months. I said, "No, we have not heard." Then I said, "Maybe he might have got operated somewhere else because that is not the only hospital." But I had his address. I said, "Okay, let me go and see." This habit of checking always helped me in my life. I went to that person's house and the house was locked. And you know, the three-story building, the house was locked. I was wondering whether I came to the right address or whether he gave a wrong address. What I should do? Then there was a lady, old lady sitting next door. An India. India is a country where a lot of talking and social activities are very important than food. In India, we can starve one meal, but we can't stop talking because that is a great relief to us in all our tensions. It's also we share our grief with others. The greatest difficulty when I come to the West is that people don't talk. I feel it's Oh, something is wrong with me. I feel that kind, you know. In India, we talk a lot and it at times it's good, many times it's bad also. So, this old lady said, "Oh, who are you? Why have you come?" Then I said, "No, I have come to this fellow's house. His house is locked." He said, "Oh, it's the same house. Come inside and wait, you know." She immediately called me. I also went. I sat because I wanted to know what has happened. Then she told me there is a I said, "What happened to that fellow's son?" His name was Somappa, actually. "Somappa, what happened to that child?" Old lady opened her book. Okay, she said her daughter-in-law was scolding, "No, don't talk. Don't talk." But she continued telling me. There is a foolish lady by the name Sudha Murthy in Bangalore. It seems she gave him 1,250 dollars and a letter because in India, we can't also keep secrecy, okay? Secret. Everybody should know everybody's house details, okay? There is a lady by the name Sudha Murthy who is very foolish. She gave him money and also she gave a letter. Somappa's father used that letter, went from one organization to another organization saying that Sudha Murthy has given a letter and I have a good reputation that normally I um verify very well before I give. Someone said, "If Mrs. Murthy has given, then we can give because she is a hard taskmaster. She must have taken all the care precaution, then only she gives. So, he has gone to Azim Premji Foundation or the Wipro or some other foundation. I don't know where he had where this fellow went. Uh so, he has gone to many foundations and everybody has given some money. So, he collected more money than $5,000. Because if he goes to 10 good foundation with my letter, he must have collected. Then he thought, "What to do? Anyway, the child is going to die. Why operate the child? Instead, it's a real life story. I'm not imagining anything. I have seen. I'm a witness. Instead, he invested that $5,000 in two or three auto rickshaws. You know, there's a rickshaw we have in our country. You must have seen, you know, auto rickshaw or you know, a lack of 100,000 or 80,000 you get auto rickshaw. He ran a good business. And the child died. The child died without treatment. He made money and built three-story building. Or already it was there. He got it repaired or something. I stood there motionless. I said, "Where did I go wrong? Was it wrong on my part to give a letter? Was it wrong on my part to give $1,250? Was it because of my mistake the child died? Where did I go wrong? It I went on thinking about it. Where did I go wrong? Then it I I I felt it is not I went wrong. To be compassionate is most essential thing in life. Nothing wrong. Otherwise, if I don't have compassion, I can't do philanthropy. If I If I I'm a very calculative, hard-minded person, I cannot do philanthropy because in philanthropy you have to be compassionate. You should care for others. Giving a letter was a mistake. It was not. But the person took advantage of the situation. Being a father, he did not get treatment for his child because he felt it's not important. It is not my mistake. It is the person who received was so crooked and you can't measure anybody's mind. So, there's play place where, you know, I I went wrong. And there are many places where I have gone wrong. And every time when I go wrong, I correct myself and question this way did I go wrong. About 7 years back, you know, I was in my office and Monday morning is a hectic and one person comes. One young man, about 30 35 years old man comes with another old person who are about 70. He says, "Uh madam, I saw this fellow on the bus stop. He was crying. He had a plastic bag in his hand. This old man had a plastic bag in his hand. And he tells that uh you Infosys Foundation people help others and I have read about that in the paper. And here the old man crying on the bus stop, I brought him." "Then, do you have any old age home?" I said, "Yes, we do have." And "How you How do you know him?" He said, "I don't know him. I just met him. And I brought him." And uh he left him and I said, "Yes, we have old age home. Maybe I will talk to him and maybe if it's needed, we will put him in a old age home because he was really He didn't have anybody." And I talked to the old man and asked him, "Do you have anybody? You have any children?" He said, He did not talk. He said, "No." First he said, "No." and he started crying. "Do you have any then Do you have any money?" He said, "No, I don't have." Then I felt bad. He's 70 years old. The best is that he let's put him in a old age home. I will pay for it. It doesn't matter. Not that we will do it for everybody, but in case it's really bad, we do that once in a while. I said, "Okay." I sent him to with my assistant. I sent him to an old age home which I know. Then you keep this fellow uh until, you know, he was not feeling well, until he's all right. Later we'll see what can be done." And this young man left. After 6 months or 7 months, I get a call from the old age home. Every month I used to send some money. It's not a big one, maybe 2,000 rupees. Uh they asked how much it was, $50 maybe. Um the person whom we have sent is not well. He's on a deathbed. Will you come? Immediately I went. Because in India, when you are alive, people may help or may not help, but when you die, it's very important how you should be cremated. Suppose he's cremated in his own religion, it's good. Otherwise, it'll be a problem later. That was my main worry. I went there and doctor said this fellow may not survive. He's really unwell. I said, "No, whatever medicine we'll we'll pay for it." He said, "You may pay, but he's really not well." Then I asked him, you know, that does he have anybody? Because when a person is dying, he will have a nephew, he will have a friend. He will have somebody. You can't You are not born like that and you will Particularly in India, you won't die like that. At least your neighbor will be there or your servant will be there. Somebody will be there. He gave some telephone number. It was there below his bed and we called up and somebody came. And that one young man came and then he went inside and probably he was talking to the old man and the old man died. Young man came and he was sort of crying. I said uh Uh I looked at him. I said, "I've seen you somewhere." He said, "No, I have not met you." I said, "Normally, I'm good I'm normally good in remembering things. Maybe off late even I'm growing old with a silver line." I said, "Maybe, but I have seen you somewhere." Then he says, he didn't reply. He said, "This old man had a plastic bag. Where is that bag?" Then I said, "I know you." I told him. "How do you know that old man had a plastic bag? There's nothing There is no information. How did you know? That means you know old man before when he came because I knew that he had a plastic bag." I said, "Not only that, I won't even give that bag, but I will call police to know who are you. Why did you come? Why are you asking?" You have to become tough also in philanthropy at times. Then he was scared. He said "I came to know that Then he told his story. The This fellow who came was old man's son. And he never wanted to keep his father at home because there was a fight between his wife and his father. Now, the best way to palm off the father is through Fortis Foundation. Here the lady who helps people. Just tell her a story. Make a story at that moment. I don't know him. And he brought his father and I put him in at our expense. He was in the old age home. It doesn't matter what expense for $50 into 6 months or 7 months is $350, $400. It's not that. Look at the attitude. And now he comes because that old man had a passbook and which showed some amount of money. And look at that old man. He writes that money nominee his son's name. He doesn't even write in Fortis Foundation name because we have helped him. It's not that we want his money. We really don't want his money. I said, "Look at this man. His son doesn't pay his bills. Somebody else pays. When he's dying, he wants his son as a nominee." What a cruel world. I don't want that money. Then I told him, "Either you should have a culture when you say the man is old, we'll put him in a old age home. We'll pay for him." There's nothing wrong in that because old age home you also get old people of their companionship. It's a nice way of spending old time old age time. Or keep your father like a Indian tradition and look after him until he dies and take his money. You are a worst of the both worlds, I told him. You want money and doesn't you don't want to keep your father. And that time I was thinking standing there, what is the meaning of human relationship between a son and a father or an institution and the receivers? What are these things? Is money that important? Is relationship are not important? Where are we going wrong? Or how we are taking advantage of the situation. There are many instances where I question, you know, where I am going wrong or what makes people to do these things. There are many good incidents. There are many bad incidents. But life has taught me one lesson. Uh what time I should complete? 5:15, right? Or any question answers are there? Okay, then I'll finish at 5:00 What time I should finish? Yes, you should tell me exact. Be In 10 minutes? Huh? In 10 minutes? Fine. Being a teacher, you know, in India, I don't know what's in Berkeley, in India when we give our sermon or class, 45 minutes is the class. Until the next bell rings, then you have to stop your class, then you have to go out. So, I'm so much used to that until the bell rings, I might continue. And I don't want to do that. I don't know Berkeley, you have the bell or no bell? Okay, then I really will continue whole day, I think, morning to evening. No, in our college, we have bell. I'm sure they if you're studying in India, you understand that the bell rings and children will run and you will also go. Class is over. They will look at that exit door, I will look at this exit door. So, oh, there are many incidents also have brought me tremendous joy, tremendous joy that no word can tell that. I cannot write, my pen fails, I can't type on the computer, my you know, my words fall short of it. Tremendous joy, the joy which I never got in the Infosys stock went up or when I made money or when I got all these awards, more than that. You know, there is the child which ran away from home. And one I normally travel by second class train in India because that is the best place to meet poor people. I was traveling by train and one child came, around 10 years old child, and he was so poor, he took his shirt and started cleaning, you know, the birth uh the seat compartment. I felt very bad. I said, "Come here. What's your name?" Then he said, "No, I don't want to talk to you." Actually, these runaway children never talk to you. Because they're so much you know, and they have all wrong concept that I will tell the police, police will beat them up or I will you know, something will happen. They never ever open up. So, I said, "No, no, you know," I told him, "I will not tell anybody, tell me." And you know, I gave him my husband had one extra shirt. I said, "Okay, let me give it to you." Though it's a big size, it doesn't matter. Then I gave him, "Okay, I will I will I will give you food. I will get you chocolate." You know, it's anyway 14 hours journey, I can become friendly, you know, and after 3 4 hours I cajoled him and then he told me that in his house he has fought with his parents. And you know, he went to take bath along with his brother in a pond. And the you know, in that fight the brother fell in the pond. This child of 10 years assumed I mean at that time he was nine. One year later I met him. His brother has died. Okay? He said I my brother drowned and he must have died. Father will come to know he will beat me up, so I ran away from home. I said, "How do you know he has died?" He said, "No, no, I know because my brother did not know swimming, etc. I'm so scared." I said, "Fine, that's fine." You know, you should not react to them immediately. I said, "Where do you stay?" Then you know, there's a place These people these children travel without ticket 200 km a day. They get on some junction like Asansol junction to Howrah, Howrah to Jamshedpur, that kind of thing, you know. They go long distance. And begging, sometimes cleaning, sometimes getting I mean, their life is very very pathetic actually. If ever you travel in India by train, if you meet these children, please understand there's a long story for every child. So, I told him, "Okay." I said his his a junction came and um you know, he got down and then he told me he stays near waiting room. They don't have any house to stay. They eat there and all. I said, "Fine." And I asked him which place he came and he gave me some name. I was not sure if he told me truth or not. Then anyway, I was going to that area. As soon as I got down from my destination place, you know, I told my person who came with me, "You go and find out in that bus there or that hutment is there any lady by the name Ellamma whose son has ran away." And I will wait outside. Because the moment I will ask they think, "Well, who am I? Why am asking?" So, send somebody. And in case the mother says, "Yes." And tell her that I want to meet her. So, that person who was with me went and told her that there is a lady Ellamma and she has two children and one has ran away. She said, "Yes." And said somebody and immediately she came. I asked her first question, what happened to your second child? She said they are alive. And I said when did your first son run away? About a year back. So, does your second child fell in a pond? She said yes. He fell and but somebody picked him up and he came everything was all right. Then I told her, you know, I know where your son is there. And will you come? And she was They were so poor. She said, you tell me anything I will do for my son, but I want to meet him. I don't know where he is. The way she started crying and I know it's so difficult to console. They were very poor, very poor. And she did not have money even for the train. I said okay. There's the next train available and I said I will come with you immediately, let's go. And then overnight journey. The person who came with me said, "Ma'am, you can't go. You have come for some function. People are waiting." I said, "No, you know, my talk doesn't mean much, you know, it doesn't matter. But I you know, mother's agony I cannot see." I said, "If it is not an important thing, after all I have to talk to some students or something. Tell them tomorrow night I will do it. My or tomorrow normally my meetings are with the students or the poor people and they understand. Poor people understand difficulties faster than other people. So, that she is really stuck somewhere, she'll come tomorrow but definitely." Immediately I took a train, I went with her and this boy was there. And then when the mother met boy, this her child, I did not have a photo, you know, camera actually. Even the camera would fail. The kind of happiness both of them showed. And she told me, "I'm ever grateful to you. You brought this child." I said, "No, I did not. It's It happened that way." And this I continued with them my friendship with them. And this child wanted to study. Later we helped. We helped this child and today he is a software engineer somewhere. And the what I'm telling you this story is that a one small assumption that his brother is dead, the child was scared. Child ran away. Child came back. And a brave child. All right, one year he spent on the railway platform cleaning the you know, the births and you know, begging and the child studied later and did very well. I can give you numerous examples where children I met in such an occasion and how their life has transformed. It is not me. It is there are many charity organizations they are like that. They come across these people, help them. Um once I I know about 9 years back I think I was you know, some village and I wanted to make a telephone call. We didn't have a cell phone in India at that time. So there was a telephone booth. Thanks to Sam Pitroda, he made telephone booths on all highways. I went to a telephone booth to tell my mother I'm because when I travel, you know, once in 3 days I have to call home and to tell I'm fine. Don't worry because I'm also they think running away child she won't come back only if she goes anywhere. So there's a rule that if I'm in a disaster I have to call once a day. If I'm not in a disaster at least once in 3 days I should call and tell I'm fine. Now there is a cell phone I can call anywhere if the network is available. I went to call and there was a girl around 16 years girl, 17 years girl. In torn clothes and uh and she opened the door and she started cleaning the telephone etc. And as you usually you know, you book a call, the call doesn't come and line will be cut in India there's all hassle, you know. Oh but hassle has also pleasure because you can talk to people at that time. It was not efficient but inefficient also there is some advantage. So the line did not get connected to my mother I was so I sitting there then I I talking to her her name was Pooja. When I talked to her maybe Pooja maybe listening if it's on a web somewhere else today. And if she listens I'll be very happy actually. I said Pooja, tell me about you. She said I don't have parents, my both parents are dead. I have a grandmother and who does help her in some houses and gets hardly about 200, 300 rupees. And I said what I what I have done. She said I appeared for the 10th class. That's the India's matriculation we call it. And the results have come yesterday only. I scored some 90%. And I said, "You must study further." She says, "But ma'am, this itself was so difficult. It's a free school I did. It's a public school. How will you expect me to study further? My grandmother is old. I don't have anybody else in life. Maybe I should do some work so that my grandmother can take rest." And meantime I call call got connected. And I I was thinking, "There are many children like Pooja in our country who are so bright." I may or may not meet them. Here's the bright girl. I said, "Okay, Pooja, on one ground on one condition I will help you." I don't know her at all. Tomorrow, I will stay one more day here. I will come to your school where you have studied and I'll meet your principal. If things are fine, then I want to take you to Bangalore. I'll put you into a residential school college kind, okay? I'll pay for all your expenses. But you should never fail in the examination. You should never fail in any examination. The day you fail because that's the way I always tell them that they should not lose incentive. I will not help. And she said, um, "Fine." And next I went and met principal because in our country principal is not only just principal. He also knows all your social things at home. Oh, her father, how he died, mother, how he died, father drank and died, how mother died, how grandmother is old, what's her age. All social details you can get it from the principal or or the school teacher. They have not like 9:00 to 5:00 job. It's 24/7. So, I got convinced that's true. Then I brought her and I told one organization whom I said, "You put this girl and every month we'll pay." Chitra did Pooja Pooja Chitrali is her name. She did very well in her ex- examination. 10th and 12th, she got very good score. She got a seat. I told, "You study whatever you want. You study whatever you want." Once in a year she has to meet me or twice a year. With her MasterCard. And to take her actually first I had to get her dress because she did not have dress to wear and come to Bangalore. Chappals slippers she did not have. Everything I had to buy for her because you know, she comes from such a poor family. It's so difficult for her to even to buy. And Chitra now finished her software engineering in a good college, got a software job. Maybe she's here, I don't know now because I have not met Chitra for last 6 months. But she's doing exceedingly well. Whenever I meet Chitra, I always think how nice, how fortunate I am in my country, I can make the difference. How fortunate I have I come across those people who really require our help. How fortunate I am they give me an opportunity to serve my fellow human beings. We cannot change the situation but you can help them to come out of it. I don't do any poverty alleviation program but I always believe education can remove poverty. I just want to conclude my talk. A friend of mine had a habit of always complaining. You tell anything she'll complain. Once I was waiting for an auto rickshaw in Bangalore, she asked me "Why you don't have a Why are you standing for a auto rickshaw?" I said "When you have two drivers, the probability of both taking leave is very high." >> [clears throat] >> Then she told me she'll give me a lift and while traveling by road, she went on complaining Bangalore roads are very bad. You should tell Chief Minister as if Chief Minister of Karnataka listens to me. I said, "Okay." Then she told my I said, "Then how are your children?" She said, "Oh, my son is in US but his children cannot speak Kannada. Kannada is our mother tongue. They speak only in English." Then I said, "He should not be in US, he should be in Karnataka." For that matter, people in Karnataka speak more English than most people. So then I asked how is your hospital? She said, "Oh, hospital patients are troubling too much." She went She went on telling me many things. I said if I stay with her for longer duration, I will also become negative. So, let me get out. So, I told her, "Hey, I want to tell you some story because being a teacher, I always like to tell story." I said, "The mother earth is full of dust and mud. I have a dust allergy. So, what I should do? Cover the earth with a leather or wear a pair of slippers? Which is better?" She said, "Slippers is better." In life, you cannot change people. You cannot change others' attitude. If you want to be happy, you have to change your attitude. Then only you can be happy. You can always complain about India is illiterate, poor people, below the poverty line, etc. You can talk. You can also talk good things about gratitude, affection, sharing, talking. You can talk whichever you want. And I talk the best things which I have known that this my compassion is not important, but they have given me an opportunity to serve my own countrymen. She told me, "Who taught this lesson? Don't believe all these people who teach you. The person who taught this lesson, I want to meet that person." She told me, my friend. I said, "I wish I could have taken you to that person who taught this lesson. Unfortunately, he's not alive. He was born in India 2,500 years back. Born as a prince, became a monk. And when he was born, we called him Siddhartha. When he became a monk, we called him Gautama Buddha. Thank you for patient hearing." You've told us a lot of different stories today about the different experiences that you've had. And I guess my question for you is how you keep from being overwhelmed by all of this. How you keep going when you see so many really sad things. You see so many really great things that you you've told us about, but how do you keep hopeful? Initially, you find it hard, you know, when you see any difficult situation, you feel like crying. You feel helpless. You get upset on people. When something nice happens them, you feel very nice. But you cool down over a period of time. Then it doesn't matter. You know, actually, you always look more objectively. Look, here is the situation. Can I correct it in my own way? If it is possible, try to correct it. So, this you learn over a period of time and equanimity, which is again taught in our own scripture that it say, never become too elated, never become too depressed. Or it's also taught in Buddha's Madhyamaka, that's the middle path. Always go in the middle path. Don't be excited and enormous happiness, enormous sadness, no. Then you take it more objectively and say, what best I can do in this circumstances? That's all. Jam Khalil. What what's the culture of philanthropy in India, both on the individual side and also the corporate side? Is it still a relatively new development or or are you beginning to see more wealthy individuals and companies embrace an obligation to help those who are less fortunate than themselves? Actually, traditionally, individual philanthropy was in a very small way and more of a religious basis, like, okay, I'll build a temple, I'll build a mosque, I'll build a church, and I will feed my own fellow human beings, my own community people. This is what they think of as philanthropy. But since 70-80 years, the concept has changed because the House of Tatas started the first philanthropic or a well-known philanthropic organization known as the Tata Trust. And there's a book on that, for the love of Somebody asked Jamsetji Tata, why did you start Tata Trust, you know, which work independent of the religion, caste, creed, language. Okay, that's the basic philanthropy. So, he said, for the love of India. So, for this concept came about 70-80 years back. And off late, because of the software boom and all, you know, there are a lot of wealthy people and people would like to give actually. Now, they want to make a family trust and give. Um and corporate houses are very keen to have CSR, corporate social responsibility, uh foundation trust. They would like to do that one. Uh they consider it's it's a very essential part of businesses to have a CSR. Uh this is growing nowadays. Uh I've seen my in our own company, our youngsters donate much more than the older generation, you know. Uh and many youngsters are very keen. They say like how today we were talking that I want to take 1 year off and can I work with you 1 year? I said, you can work with 1 year, but I cannot guarantee you after 1 year you'll go back to Infosys, because Infosys doesn't give 1 year leave. Uh and I have come across many bright kids. They say, you know, particularly when they are very successful, they say, my you know, like a some percent of their income they would like to give. Uh that kind of a charity I have seen No, I'm seeing it a lot. And when tsunami struck South India, I had 100 volunteers who said, we'll take without salary leave and work with you. I said, I can't manage 100, you know, because I have to get them food. And tsunami time, you don't get food. You know, maybe one meal a day or something. Sometimes you don't get even a meal, because you have to whole day work there. I said, 25 batches enough. So, you do get people who would like to work, people who would like to donate. And every corporate house is thinking of a CSR one or another way, because if you don't do, then it's considered a bad culture nowadays. As you know, and I'm wondering what uh the Infosys Foundation particularly looks at when um working with schools to make sure that the plural culture that Buddha and others talk about is is um is promoted. So, unfortunately in India religion becomes one of the weapon in the politician's hand. So, anything which is advantage to them, they they use religion as a weapon and that destroys a lot of social work or good interaction which we have built for a long time, it can be destroyed in a day by one incident. It happens. But we don't have any control on that because that is in democratic country like large democratic country like ours where, you know, community plays a bad role banks. People like us do not have any any anything to control that. So, we are helpless. From Infosys Foundation, we work Suppose I go to any other school, then it will be a problem because oh, she belong to this community, she went to that school. So, I work only with the government schools. It doesn't It doesn't come under anybody. So, we do only with the government schools. We also supply books to the libraries which are very useful to understand India's culture, communal harmony and we've always lived in harmony from so many years. So, we choose that kind of good books and non-text books and supply to government school libraries. We have done such library We are in 12,000 in Karnataka alone. Took 10 years for us. Then we also go and check them whether the children are reading or not. As much as possible, we'd like to do that. But we we are not as powerful as politicians are. After all, we are social workers. So, our our power is limited and we we have our own limitations. But they are more powerful to destroy particular destruction. I'm curious about what you think about the role of a computer science in the ability to affect the poor something that we work on pretty hard here at Berkeley. Actually when I used to when I'm working with the children in the village area, I always ask this question. Hey, do you want to learn computer? Everyone says yes, we want to learn computer. Every child says. And they you know the local language in that state is so different. Uh so I wrote three or four children book for computers. You know, what is an internet? What is a computer? How can they write programs etc. Then we also give computers to so many schools. But it's such a large state. So you know you thousands of computers are of no use. We require some 25,000 computers. As much as possible this year we have given more than 500 new computers um in the university and the backward area we have given so that you know there'll be a batch of students who can come children can come and uh we also pay for the teachers. We take teachers uh teach them basic things. Particularly tell them okay children not teach them computer games first. Let them get fascinated then programming all those. So in some area we choose so there we buy computers, there we give computers, we will give computer books, we will you pay for the teachers, but we we are not able to make it entire state. It is hard for us because it's a huge state. But we want that they should get used to computer. And that helps them a lot later part of their life. We want that. Can I just follow up on that? What do you think um these children will use the computers for later? Normally what happens you know these children are from the government schools. And we provide the computer but government we also tell government that we provide computers. And we also pay for these teachers who are 12th class or something. Government should not interfere in the sense government should not say tomorrow you have used our staff. You know how the bureaucracy in India it is not that simple okay. Somehow you should study it's not there. No, it's They are very conscious about their powers. So, they tell we will employ somebody after the school hours. They will come Saturday, Sunday they will teach. Government has said okay for us. And these children we identify those potential schools, not every school. In a district level potential school where brighter children come and poorer brighter children come. And there if you identify the students are very good, then in that area we give scholarship in the school also. Come up to 12th level. And if they get good marks, then we pay to their graduation. We have done that, but it's a hard work. Constant follow-up, but teachers help us in that work. And we help teachers in small monetary way. More than that, many children have done this one, you know, that they were interested. Out of 100 maybe 10, 20 will will do well, but still it's a good percentage. Good evening, ma'am. Having grown up idealizing you and Mr. Murthy, I think it's a privilege for me to be in the same room as you today. I work for a corporate foundation and I really appreciate your feedback in terms of the whole value chain in terms of the grant assessment process, the impact measurement process. You touched on it really well in terms of the individual impact assessment. How do you recommend corporations approach this for social impact assessment in a community or in a host government where we operate, typically in the extractive business? In India, I'm talking with respect to India again, talk. See, when you give money, many people think that's the end of your philanthropy. Actually, many times it's a cause of root cause of misery many times. So, you should assess a project. That's the way we do. Assess a project first. Depending on the project, you should give money. For example, all scholarship programs we give 80% money, not 100%. I said I will put 80, let him get or let her get 20. There exceptions are there. For example, if sex workers' children, we give 100% money. Okay. Rest of that, 80% money. And in health project, you know, every project has a different yardstick how much money you should give. Health project, we don't we don't encourage individual help. Rarely we do that. Exceptional case, but normally we want to go for a larger extent. For example, um Shankar Netralaya is a very famous eye hospital in Bangalore is coming up. 60% paid, 40% unpaid. So, we said we are responsible for the 40% unpaid. We build that building, we do everything for the 40% unpaid. Uh or the equipment we buy for the unpaid people, so that many people are benefited. When you do philanthropy, your strategy that is the way we have followed, many people should be helped than a few individuals. Few individuals we don't do. Then we have the follow-up, regular follow-up. Any project you do, you'll have follow-up. We don't read reports. They will send reports, but we don't read reports. Reports I can write anything. In our country, we can write anything. I said I should go and see that. What may No, in case they have done well, that's fine. If case they have not, then why they have not done well? Where did they go wrong? Is it because of the laziness or is it because they have not understood the problem? So, always we require a for constant follow-up. And then only we do the next grant. Any grant we divide into three to four parts. First phase we will give, go and check, come back, and then we have already a remark column. And depending on that, we give the next grant. In any administration, actually in any of work, out of 100 100% 60 to 70% actually or 50 to 60% is our administration, follow-up, check, verification. About 20% is execution of the giving money, and the 20% is extra, depending on the circumstance, of we don't know. That way. Now, I think my question has already been answered. Okay, thank you. Yeah. It was all about from what you had said um there was a one side of a hard taskmaster and the other side of compassion. Yeah, there are both. Yeah. >> If you are always compassionate, people will take you for a ride, you know. They'll tell you 100 stories. If you're always hard, then you can't make it. Okay? We tell in our Sanskrit literature uh it says you should be like a diamond, very strong. Vajradapi kathorani, you should be as hard as a diamond at time. Mr. Nikusamadapi, you should be as soft as a flower is. And you have to learn these both qualities a lot, you know, when you do philanthropy. You should be compassionate, but also hard taskmaster. What's been your experience positive and negative of the role that the government has played in your kind of works? Uh we don't work with government at all, so no role. We are work to work. Sometimes we work, but we don't bother much about them in the sense we have built government hospitals. Okay? Uh we have done, but we prefer to work with the poorest of the poor directly without any agency. With our own employees or as our our volunteers. Or sometimes we have teachers non-profit organization. We have formed teachers non-profit organization. We help them through them. But by and large we don't do because there'll be a lot of hurdles there, you know, and misinterpretation. Then the moment they know we are doing well, the person who is in charge of the government will be transferred immediately. All those hassles. I said, "Why have Without that also we have done all these years?" Um I feel that Bill Gates Foundation and you know, there are many other this kind of trust which like they give so much money for AIDS project in India and celebrities like Richard Gere and they all also come into picture and because of that some problems come into better limelight. So, according to you, since you are living in India and since you are in, you know, better touch with all the people and problems there, what do you think I I mean, which are the areas that need urgent attention? And I mean, health care or rural development or education? It is like this, you know, which part of the body is important, if you ask. When your legs are paining, you say leg is important. Your hands are paining, you say hands are important. Which part of the body is important? It's very difficult to say. Same way, we have many problems in India. You and they're all interconnected. Health is not important, no? Of course, a healthy my person only can do better work. Is education not important? If there's no education, people never come out of the poverty line. Rural development is not important? Yes, it is important. So, they're according to me, all are equally important. But the most important, according to me, is the population. If we reduce our population and we educate them, many problems can be solved easily. You have a very special view of what's happening in India, and I would like to know, where do you see country going? What are your aspirations for country? And where do you see country to be in, say, 20 years? Actually, I don't please it out. I don't visualize that way because there are many un You can talk that with respect to business deal, 20 years, what is the GDP will be there or what is our turnover will be there, they can tell. In philanthropy, I cannot say after 20 years what happens because there are many unforeseen circumstances that affect the social life. However, in my experience, the dire poverty in India has disappeared. In In In state of Karnataka, at least. In some many states, actually. Still, it is there in some states, like Bihar, it is there. Uh Uttar Pradesh, it is there. Rajasthan, it is there. But down to south, the dire poverty has disappeared. You know, thanks to education or government some good policies are there. Some of the policies are very good. For example, in Karnataka government, if the child when a female child is born with a LIC, they have a new scheme. They deposit some 10,000 rupees or something. New policies have come. Free education is there. Midday meal is there. So, the state of Karnataka, Maharashtra, and Gujarat, uh order is first Gujarat. Anyone is from Gujarat here? Okay. Gujarat is number one state in India where all social projects are doing exceedingly well because the legacy of Gujarat is different than Bihar. Gujarat is the state which has produced Mahatma Gandhi, Vallabhbhai Patel, Maniben, and now uh SEWA, Elaben Bhatt, Mama Elaben Bhatt. So, the Gujaratis have that mindset of improving themselves. And the that state has done very well in terms of social work than any state. Uh out of my eight national disasters, Gujarat is the only state where they recovered very fast compared to any other natural disasters because they want to improve. And maybe their outlook in life is so different that they work together, they share, they live simple life, they never show off. You can't make out when you go to any function who is rich, who is poor in Gujarat because the all of them wear more or less a similar kind of sari. You go down south and you go to Bihar, you can make out who is rich, who is poor immediately. Their language, their you know, the way their weddings are conducted. The simplicity of Gujarat has made it a very prosperous in terms of social activity. I rate it number one in India. Number two is Maharashtra. Anyone is from Maharashtra here? You are there. Maharashtra is number two. Again, the state of Maharashtra has a different culture. It was Savitribai Phule, Agarkar, Maharshi Karve. Elderly people have led a life of an exemplary life. And leaders were of great quality. That helped the subsequent generation to do better. Particularly the place like Pune where they're always ahead of time. They're always ahead of time, Pune, because there was a widow remarriage in 1896. I mean, it may look very silly thing in the West, but in our country it means a lot in 1896. So, the state leaders can make a great difference in the social activity. Karnataka also. The dire poverty of these three states have disappeared. Of course, something else has creeped in. But, 20 years again, what state I should talk? Because, please remember in India, when I talk about India, I can't talk about India as a whole. The average may be something else. Uh 20 years in Gujarat is a different. 20 years in Karnataka is different. 20 years in Maharashtra is different. 20 years in Bihar, I don't know. Anything may happen or may not happen at all. Maybe it reverses. You I do not know. Gujarat Bihar Rajasthan Bimaru, they call Madhya Pradesh. Madhya Pradesh still better. Madhya Pradesh still better. So, I cannot generalize for all states in India, but I can tell some states can do very well. Gujarat will definitely do well. Maharashtra will do well. Karnataka will do well. Tamil Nadu will do well. In terms of health, Tamil Nadu is number one. In terms of health, Tamil Nadu is well. In terms of education and all, Gujarat is number one. Our cooperative movement, Gujarat is number one. So, every state has some In terms of education, Kerala is number one. So, you we cannot Though Bengalis are maybe many Bengalis here. Though Bengalis are very fond of literature and art and education, but Bengal will not do very well in education because there is a divide there. Whereas Kerala, there is no divide. Due to political reasons, there is no divide there. In Bengal, you can see utter poverty. And maybe due to Bangladesh, people have come there. That could be one of the reasons. But, Kerala and Bengal, I can always compare in terms of the women empowerment because women are very strong in those states. Bengal and Kerala. Thanks to my work, I could read people if they are from that state, what are the characteristic by and large. But, in terms of education, both are both maybe both are not equal. Kerala is better. So, it goes by state by state, I can tell you. But, not all over India. I will not be able to tell. And philanthropy has taught me a great lesson. What you do not know, tell I do not know. You don't have to say I know everything. And on that note, thank you once again for the privilege of hearing you talk.