Discussion - Sachin Tanwar Google India

Welcome back to this exciting session uh in our course on digital accessibility. Today we have a very interesting guest with us Dr. Sachin Tanoir. So he's done his PhD from IIT Delhi and he's currently working with uh Google on usability and accessibility user experience design and he has a very exciting journey uh ranging from IIT Bombay design department and other uh very eminent organizations like Samsung and McKenzie which of course through the conversation in today's session we'll try to explore how his journey and his learnings can help us in our learning as well. So, welcome Sachin uh to this very exciting conversation. We'll first try to get a glimpse of your personal journey and career path. So, you've had a fascinating journey from IIT Bombay to IIT Delhi and through several organizations like Samsung, McKenzie and Google. So, what drew you towards user experience design and how did accessibility become such an important part of it? >> Thank you, Risha. So I think my journey was more or less unplanned. I was not planning to become a designer and then to pursue things that I pursued later while I was in college. I was uh doing engineering and I had little clue about what accessibilities or what design it uh uh is. I was not clear on that. So I was actually preparing for an MBA where I was trying to struggle with the MBA colleges and the preparations that needs to go in there. But then u I uh one of my friends sister uh and I'm thankful to her u so she uh told me she was applying for some undergrad design college uh while I was in engineering fourth year. So she said that um my work or the projects that I kind of do is more associated towards something called as design. So I should have a look at the design colleges. Um and then I checked out certain design colleges that are in India. Um NID IITs um and then I was fascinated to see the projects the students projects that were there and I was like this is what I wanted to do not MBA or not MTech because my again inclination of projects or the things that I was doing was already inclined towards design. Um so for example I was making certain robots uh in the college um to help a zoo feeder feed the lion without going in front of them uh in person. So that enables that person to you know just pass on the food without getting seed so that the lion eats the food in a natural habitat not a not sort of in cages. uh right and also then I developed a robot which was more around helping users um who cannot uh go from one place to check out certain things in the houses. So for example the door is opened or not or the windows is open or not or the gas is lit or not. So they can sit at one place they can send this car controlled by their Nokia mobile and um you know they can see the interface on on the on the phone itself. So that time we didn't had like CCTV apps and all of it all those tech uh this I'm talking about 2009 and 10. So um made those sort of projects and again uh it was not targeted towards accessibility back then but then I realized that it will really help people with mobility issues uh to uh find what is happening around the house without going there right. Um so from there uh my design journey started. I learned about design. I uh got uh lucky enough to crack IIT uh Bombay and learn design there. So why I joined ID Bombay? Because it was more of interaction design degree there. Um so being an engineer that uh was my inclination. I and I then joined IT Bombay and did my masters in design from there. uh from there again uh it was more of a design journey. Uh then while working uh after graduating while I started working I realized there's a gap in industry uh which is around the accessibility requirements of people with certain needs. Um uh so while working at Samsung I realized Android OS for example it changes every year right so we many of the people they buy a new Android device just because they offer new features new visuals new style and all of that and while I realized that every year the OS upgrades but the uh accessibility features there's a very minimal changes to them so I tried to investigate why is that and from there My research journey began uh when I tried to understand why uh we have a slower paced changes in the domain of accessibility. What are the user needs and what as a person with design background I can build. Wow, that is quite a journey. And uh I'm you did shed some light on some pivotal moments uh about uh like somebody kind of informing you about design careers being an option. Uh what are some other pivotal um you know points in your career which shaped it around accessibility? >> Right. I think that uh one experience was that Samsung experiences that I just spoke about. the others uh are also there. So for example u we had uh you know uh a lot of uh softwares that are used by that are primarily targeted for these cited users. I I I say that uh the industries are more focused towards uh taking care of the cited users because they consider them as their primary user groups. But when I uh did a project with uh Marriott International, I realized that the hotels the guidelines that they build for the hotels uh you know they also take because of an architecture sort of uh hotel architecture the guidelines have to be um also cater to the needs of people who require special uh accessibility needs. So from there I you know these small small bits when the on the basis of the projects that I was doing in the industry I got to know that there are there is lot more that happens in the background right somebody has created those guidelines the architecture guidelines that I'm talking about and then as a designer I must include those guidelines in a way so that when I was digitizing uh their content right so that architects and civil engineers and plumbers and all of that can use to build a hotel they also end making making that hotel more accessible to all to everyone. So by each project I was learning new about accessibility and I think um uh eventually that Samsung thing was the pivotal point where I was trying to investigate further on uh what we can do more uh so that u people uh who use these accessibility features or who rely on accessibility needs can uh enjoy the softwares more. the or the technology that we are building. >> Great. So um let us now dive into the um things related to accessible user experience design. So to begin that conversation, uh can you kind of define in your um words what do you think is the difference between accessible user experience versus a traditional UX? >> Right? So I think uh uh for many years accessibility has been around um as a separate entity like um accessibility is primarily u actually if you ask designers that what do they um uh do for making their products accessible there would be hardly anything that you will learn from them. But if you'll ask a developer, they can say a lot more uh because those guidelines and uh rules they have been more around developers. Although the guidelines also talk about uh some utility aspect but it's primarily consider uh concerned around the functionality right. So uh accessibility as a guideline they are available but they're more around the functionality aspect the utility aspect but beyond utility there's usability of things and there's user experience right that's why we enjoy certain things so utility means I can just use it right I can go there and do certain things that's what make it utility based but when it comes to usability it would add another dimension that uh the product whatever it is software or dig uh non-digital I can do it without errors. Right? That's usability for you. And then user experience is another layer on top of it where you make the users enjoy. They are not fatigued. They are not tired. They are not frustrated by the experiences that you provide. So uh I can also um tell about one of the u you know u uh thing that I experienced in the industry. So when I uh joined McKenzie uh there was already uh some conversations around the lawsuit that happened uh on the Mckenzie uh insights app uh which had some accessibility issues due to which it was I mean there was some lawsuit somebody has filed in the US. Uh now to tackle that I saw it as an opportunity that you know uh while we are talking about accessibility like fixing accessibility uh in the product I can actually make it one step ahead or one step uh more towards closer toward the better user experience. So that's where I thought that I googled this term whether it existed or not accessible user experience and I found it. it is there like somebody wrote certain articles about it but very minimal back then. Uh and then I think there were more conversations around uh that I later on realized that happened over accessible user experience which made a regular user experience more accessible like the designers who are doing UX right now they are primarily again centered around cited users uh but not everyone else. So this accessible factor uh makes the design more universal and of course the experience is not compromised. >> So um in this regard in your experience what are the some common misconceptions that engineers or designers have about accessibility? >> I think um I can say two maybe that is uh that I can quickly relate to. First is everyone thinks that it's not my job, right? So designer or developer, they think that it's not their job. Uh maybe somebody else in the company will do it for the product. My job is to just design or just code whatever is being designed and make it functional. We are still stuck with that functionality yet. So uh everyone thinks that somebody else will flag some issues, let's say testers or whoever, and then I will fix it, right? um or maybe there's some guidelines that somebody will check later on uh and will come back to me with some list that hey fix this. So that's first that we believe maybe still that uh it's not my job. Second is uh that I when I start making something right um I seek help and I have some resources that I want to use. So here what happens is the guidelines or the uh result the the the checklist are not there just for what you what the specialized need that you need for but they're in general available and thus you must uh then train yourself. So thinking that I'm an expert and I can just use this checklist and I can solve the problem it's not true. you need to first be aware and make yourself more learned then you can use the checklist and then you can uh you know improve the designs or the the development you are doing. >> So um as you clearly mentioned that you have worked across several global organizations over the years. So what differences have you observed in how accessibility is prioritized in different organizations or across the globe in different countries? I think uh this is a very uh important question in the sense that uh uh it changes by every company like uh every company has a different priority. So some prioritize uh going live with the feature that they just built. Some prioritize uh making it more holistic or universal that uh anyone else can use it. Some prioritize uh the conformance to these laws that nobody should sue us before we release a product. So they have certain checks in place uh before they even release the product. Um and some they just don't care, right? Uh because maybe they they will not get sued and also it's they always feel that they have less time to build things up. Um so I think it's it changes by company. The bigger company means they will better uh uh sort of align with the laws. Um so it was not the story 10 years back. 10 years back everyone was doing it the same like they were releasing features and then they were getting sued because their product was not accessible but then uh in the last decade there there have been a lot of improvements in that process of building softwares especially that uh the product is checked at certain stages um again not everyone does it maybe you can say 1% of the companies that we have maybe one or 2%. uh still a less number but I think that number is growing. Um and I I think we can see more companies that can incorporate um inclusiveness in their processes when they sort of build these softwares. So um so how would you think that different organizations look at accessibility from an economic perspective? I think uh that's the uh I think major deal for many companies who de prioritize accessibility because they always compare it uh with the cost that you'll incur. So I think but it's a you know short-term thing if those companies will see the benefits of it that they are targeting the larger user group they are making uh people you know more uh brand loyal so I think those are more bigger wins uh uh plus it'll also open you know uh if you see competitive advantage this will open a new dimension for them that they are more better much better from their competitors if they include accessib ility in place. Although it incurs some cost definitely because it's some efforts that um uh uh you know you may need one or two specialized talent in the team but you know if you upskill your team members they would also uh uh you know it's a onetime investment but they will eventually uh what this will translate is to making every product that you build accessible. So it's a onetime investment but I don't think it's a major thing. U but uh of course uh it will have much better benefits for the organization. >> So um what role do you think does government policy play in uh enabling organizations to work on compliance? >> I think good question. So I think that's the thing behind many countries why their uh digital products are accessible um today. Um so for example US has section 508 um and Australia and European markets they all have country specific laws or the region specific laws that uh sort of um I'll not say empower but I will say uh direct the companies to build their products based on uh those laws or conformances. So they must comply on those regional uh laws. So for example, WCAG uh guidelines they there are gu there are set of guidelines right and all these laws they uh use these guidelines plus or minus some other uh regional uh requirements. uh these laws then uh sort of uh are published and companies who are in that region or operating in that region they must uh follow these guidelines so that the product is accessible to these uh users who are there in that particular geography. Uh now uh the governments uh of different countries uh like more developed countries there'll be tighter scrutiny and uh uh better guidelines and all of that um will be there but those who who are still developing or are underdeveloped this phenomena is still uh uh not yet there uh we don't have like for example in India we do not have like uh a law as such uh do we we have guidelines we have uh best practices is um but not laws for the private players like private company who should make their products accessible it's not yet there but the government websites and recently I heard that the banking websites also uh they must be accessible they should follow double A guidelines uh WCGA guidelines so it's coming there for the developing countries I think especially India but uh not yet there I think the more tighter the scrutiny will become in future um for a certain let's say if your product or your audience uh is of let's say if you have 1 million for example user group as a user group let's say if I have an app and that app has 1 million downloads uh in India I think u uh governments can push certain companies for being more accessible or or follow certain compliance that are India based u for such companies because also applying it for everyone uh it not might not be feasible ible and I think that's why it's not there yet because not small players or not everyone can kind of comply uh because of because again they think that there's an initial over overhead although it's not there but many of the organizations think that it's an initial overhead and they would want to sort of uh bypass it and that's why we don't have laws that stricter laws for these private players uh but I think something can be introduced for the bigger players that are there in Indian market So I think um uh from your comments I can clearly see that uh with the increase in this tighter scrutiny and eventually it will happen. Uh I think there will definitely be a need for accessibility evaluators and accessibility experts who will be eventually hired in these companies in order to examine the existing products. So maybe for our viewers this can be a good uh career option as well to understand about accessibility and maybe develop your profile as an accessibility assessor or evaluator or an accessibility expert. Maybe you can comment. >> I think uh good point. So in western or developed uh nations and the companies which are there like giants so we see a lot of roles related to accessibility. For example, they will have a designer who specializes uh also specializes in accessibility. There are certain development team that are dedicated for the accessibility of products. Then there are auditors uh as you said uh who will be uh helping designers and develop uh developers in auditing the apps or the products that they have made. So they have certain checklist um that they you know use and they say that uh this product can be made further accessible by doing 10 things or change your whatever design right. So before even the product launches in the market there's a need to audit those products. So that's already there. I think in India also soon uh u uh at least for the bigger companies there would be a need uh to do >> good to know that. So another aspect about topdown kind of push right so we spoke about policies and laws around compliance in different parts of the world including India. So do you think that something like incentives so maybe we are aware that there is like green incentive right so make electric cars uh the companies they get it uh for the R&D etc something like a business incentive uh for including accessibility or driving accessibility in their organizations would that push organizations a bit further >> um yeah I think that's a good perspective uh but I'm not 100% sure on uh what exactly can uh motivate organizations. So for example one is a push right when you get a push from government then you sort of uh upscale or u tend to become more universal. I think uh first is the sensitivity like why it should be done at the first place. It should be well uh you know uh wellknown phenomena across the industry. So everyone should know the benefit of it automatically. like for example you will reach out more to more people you will be more uh a better brand you will have more loyal customers and all of that uh that's one uh second is the if we talk about incent incentivizing I think um government really uh wants to definitely push uh that's why they are starting with the government websites that must be accessible first and then the banking websites uh but for incentivizing it's kind of difficult to find but if we can find something that can because it will make a win situation for everyone right so incentivizing in certain ways that can help them either by with their sort of audits if somebody is let's say regularly practicing uh practicing accessibility in their products or they're improvising access accessibility in their products or being multilingual and all of that like whatever can reach out to more user groups in India uh if government can incentivize through uh either certain policy ies that they can uh that they make for uh such companies. For example, uh we have ISO certifications, we have you know all these other kind of uh certifications that companies register for. Uh I think if something can be created there uh let's say even uh if you if I can give an example of those stars that we see in our refrigerators, right? Right? Uh one customer goes and sees a fivestar rated refrigerator maybe they will be inclined to buy that right. uh ultimately it's sort of a standard but it is created in such a way that users are uh considering this as a better product which is which it is but you know similarly that way also could be thought of like how can we make companies or products with certain rate ratings or something like that so that they stand out they can celebrate that right that I am I am rated this much or I have got this certification and uh uh now I can be you know I can publicize that and my users can sort of uh maybe they understand the value of it and they become my customers. >> Yeah, I think that's a very interesting idea. Maybe we can we can try to pitch it to uh government bodies who are you know preparing policies around accessibility. Uh so uh looking at another aspect of your experience, you have both uh worked in product development over the years as well as uh research in the domain of accessibility and product innovation. So but when um accessibility and some usability related product innovation are at odds with each other, how do you resolve the tension? So I think it's quite common uh like something some colors that we choose uh we are liking them but they're not let's say uh having a good contrast ratio or they're not legible enough but we like the style of it as a as a designer let's say. So there's a conflict like that like uh which is common and of course it's not just at the designer level even a product manager can think like that like we should have these two buttons but uh you know uh those two buttons are just promoting product additionally in a page let's say but not really solving a uh a issue or uh or it might be complicating users because we are showing paragraphs or showing five or 10 images and all of that to promote something. So from a product manager standpoint or from a product owner standpoint they will feel that fill the page and you know maybe our the chances are the customer will click somewhere or make my logo bigger and all of that. U so it can happen at any level developer designer or uh the product manager or product owner. Now the thing is u it all depends on how u knowledgeable you are coming from the accessibility side. So if you are aware that people do not read text in reality right if you show a website and there are tons of text in it hardly there's there are so many research which already proved that people do not read such uh contents if you put too many visuals asking for attention uh research has already proven that it's not worth it. Users will confuse uh get confused and they will just quit your web page while you thought they will click a button or do something. Uh so the more knowledgeable you are the more uh researches you read around this would help you in uh you know removing certain biases. Uh I think that's very important uh for anyone to get started with at least uh negating something that should not be there at all at the first place. >> Very interesting to know that. So uh let us move into an emerging tech uh genre and I'm sure you are also engulfed in the AI wave uh uh like all of us. So how do you think uh AI and other emerging tech uh maybe variables or there are a lot of research going in that area new variable technologies are coming up every day. How do you think these kind of technologies would impact accessibility and product design which is more accessible? >> I think uh it's something that is uh really uh you know uh big now um and it recently started right with uh generative AI. Now the thing is it is really helpful uh in tackling some of the accessibility issues. So for example um captions right or the subtitles. So lot of uh uh streaming platforms they instead of having like manual subtitles they started automating it and now the result is you can even see a Spanish video or something like that with those subtitles right uh that are automatically translated. So it's not somebody's feeding them. So the accuracy has reached that level that you know uh those text or those videos are already transcribed to you in a very easy fashion and consumable fashion. Now we will see look forward to how it make it more maybe either customizable. So if I have a certain style of seeing some videos or some audios like hearing some audios in certain pattern maybe it can contextualize I mean that's the future but not there right now it can contextualize. So same as with your uh Google home or Alexa devices who are trying to learn right like who's speaking and what uh what is the tone and all of that. So once that intelligence is built up maybe things will become better at accessibility. Um another uh example is transcription right. So the live transcription we might have seen some features in the phone advertisements right that when you are on a call uh whoever is on the other side u you know while they are speaking there's a text that's already uh your phone is writing right as they are talking. So it will help so many people right. So definitely for the people who are uh uh let's say difficulty who have difficulty in hearing but also for somebody who's busy and has just kept the phone or in a sil silent environment they cannot put it on speaker to listen the message but they can just see the screen that what is the other person saying so you know there's a lot of benefit of uh this automation that's happening and I think AI as it grows and becomes better can have more personalized and customized experiences uh that can really uplift the accessibility uh challenges that we have today. >> How do you think the other uh emerging tech such as variables like meta, rayban and other uh you know smart watches and there are a lot of variable tech also which is coming up. How do you think they can help in accessible product development? So one one thing is these variables also carry a lot of sensors which detect how we are moving right. So let's say if I am wearing a watch and I do certain gesture uh using that watch then my smartphone is uh capable enough or if I am having something variable they are capable enough to know what I'm trying to do. So you know uh mix of these variable or uh uh I should say multi-device kind of experiences uh would really uplift or change the game of accessibility. Uh so but they will all have to follow different standards. So what we learned on the smartphone we cannot directly copy paste to that knowledge for while building uh let's say a smart glass because this is much nearer to my eyes. I will have to uh use this uh the periphery vision and the uh you know uh the real world. So the guidelines will change the principles might remain same while building accessible uh products but the guidelines will change because of the device type and the way I am interacting with it. So if I am inter if I'm wearing let's say smart rings and I have a glass here um I do certain gestures it changes something right in my interface. Now it has to really understand whether user is doing that accidentally or intentionally. Plus the vision that I'm seeing here uh should not give me stress should not make me fatigued right I should be able to wear this smart glass for about maybe whole day ideally right that's what the companies would want u but it all depends on how smoother the experience is how uh you know uh comfortable the experience is and that will come through that research. So somebody will have to really go into the deep software uh you know deep uh get the deep knowledge uh for these new devices that we have until we are there the experience might be you know rugged or or not so friendly but I think that research can then later address the upcoming versions of those devices. >> That's good to know. So in your uh journey you have worked with uh a lot of engineers or designers or mentored them also maybe. Uh so what is your advice for the young generation of uh engineers or UX designers uh into what kind of skills they should put their time and energy into to embed accessibility in their career paths. for example, >> I think uh it's a good opportunity for everyone as India is also apart from the world you know world is also trying to make things accessible I think still uh we have stats which say that 98% of the websites are still not accessible right uh so and in India of course there's a lot of uh that number becomes maybe bigger to closer to 90 9 something%. So u there will be a need of designers and developers and auditors and all of it uh the all the talent around accessibility who can contribute uh to such organizations contribute uh making these products more accessible. uh now when you say about career uh I think designers let's say I cannot be a designer who started from day one and let's say after 5 years 10 years 15 years why would somebody pay me right like if I am the same designer who was there day one and day like of the whatever 15th year I have to upskill as a designer right and that does not mean that today I'm designing for like certain apps tomorrow I'll design for more complex system and all that that will be there but what new you are bringing what new talent you're bringing to the table right it it becomes a differentiator so you have to not compete at a college level when you're trying to find jobs but also when you climb the corporate ladder so either you can go in an individual contributor role like IC role you can either go grow as a people manager or you can continue using uh that IC uh uh role but that IC role has to again upskill right Accessibility gives you that opportunity. So I think if you gain that knowledge, you start practicing accessibility whether your organization is asking for that or not. Um first try to convince them of course but if not still get some certifications, get some uh knowhows about things, build your own framework or process, right? And then you uh practice it in your products, right? Now what will uh it do is first you whatever you are learning you are practicing it you are making it uh you are implementing those things those decisions and uh it will make you it is making you upskilled as a designer or as a developer even right or even if you're an auditor who started with just checking the WCJ guidelines but now you are uh uh increasing your level you're stepping up and uh maybe helping in forming company level guidelines for certain products you know and contributing at that aspect. So I think this adds value to your current role or this itself can become your new role. >> Yeah. So I think you spoke about um you know how individuals uh evolve in their careers 10 years 5 years down the line. So if you want to um you know kind of look at accessibility as itself right so if you can envision the state of digital accessibility 10 years from now what would it look like? I think it'll look completely different. Uh reason being uh because of the AI for sure. Uh many things are changing, many things are getting automated and uh in research. If you talk about research, there's a lot of new research that is coming up. But still of course there's a there are huge gaps. Uh people like you and me still have to pursue that research either as PhD or as a project. And we keep on building that knowledge and we keep on building those automations and uh after five or 10 years I think if you are running in the race now I I won't say even even this is the race today. So even if you are learning more about accessibility and doing things now I think you can be there somewhere you know five to in five to 10 years of uh in the time uh doing certain uh better things and more advanced things that you than you're doing today. >> That's good to know. I think uh so uh like what would be the final message uh that you would like to leave uh with organizations who are still hesitant to uh you know adopt accessibility as part of their product design teams. >> I think one uh very one basic thing would be uh or very important thing would be uh it's not just for people who you do not consider your market segment. It's for everyone. So for example I can give a couple of examples like the caption or subtitles were were made for uh uh people who had hearing disabilities. uh now that actually helps I mean everyone right 80% of the people who are um you know who are there they use captions or subtitles to either hear I mean listen to movies which are of different language and uh you know that is helping everyone else right not just with the people who had hearing uh uh disability with which it was starting started from so that's one other could be you know products like Alexa and Google Home. uh the research when they were not yet there. I mean when they were not built the there were certain reaches researches that were happening for people with uh you know uh speech uh uh disorders or speech disabilities sorry speech I think we quite this specific part u so people with uh uh vision right uh loss of vision or uh vision challenges vision related challenges so these devices were made for them like so that they don't have to interact with any screens even for people who had like who are like now in our homes if you see our moms and dads who are grandfathers you know who are at a certain age level and they face difficulty in operating phones or certain apps they can easily do things from Alexa or using Google Home right so I think that device or that thing that you're building is not just targeted for that small audience that you are thinking that it's a small user group but I think it helps everyone in general I think uh that is a very important uh takeaway from your u answer. Um if you would like to kind of comment on the next big frontiers of accessibility which uh designers or UX researchers or accessibility researchers should should focus on what would they be? So I think uh keep your focus on to if you're a user centered designer or user experience researcher um you your focus is definitely user right and now uh if you u use AI and uh understand the who's making AI AI is made by people like you right so don't think just as a user of AI but also think how you can contribute so I think next frontier lies in those contributions so either you make the technology more smarter uh by doing certain researches and experiments at your level um and you know uh uh go back to the technology and try to build something new on top of it or create something new from scratch that current technology is not addressing right so I think research is a is a big frontier because many think as I said earlier that there there are these new variables for which a lot of research is yet to be conducted or is in progress So it'll be researchers like you who will contribute to this. So write please write papers do a lot of experiments with your design test them with users uh publish that knowledge and uh I think somewhere down the line you will realize that you have created certain knowledge base that is actually helping maybe companies like Meta, Google and all the all these other big players open AI and all that right uh who are trying to improve their products through your research. So once you do that uh you have contributed to research you have built your knowledge and you're also of course uh putting some things into your product that you are designing uh today. I think uh research is that next big frontier. Uh and the second is the application of it right. So try to build certain product or uh if you have if you are in that right place right now where you can actually contribute to making things more smarter like if you are already working for open AI for example or Netflix or meta and all that u you can actually build new u AI for uh addressing certain things that you of researched but research comes first. >> Okay. So that brings us to the end of this insightful conversation with Dr. Sachin Tanvar. We covered so much ground today uh with extending from philosophy of accessible design to research to innovation to product development spanning different organizations as well. There's one definitely uh clear takeaway from this conversation that accessibility is not just about compliance. It is also about creating better user experiences. So thank you Sachin for joining us today and thank you for sharing your expertise and knowledge with us. >> Thank you so much Da for uh giving me this opportunity. It was great.