Webinar 11 – Space and Satellite Insurance

[Music] what star in about one minute Thank You Prince Adam Richard wish come on line please thank you I'm going to stop the music now thank you for joining us thank you everyone they've joined us today at the access dot space webinar we will star in a few minutes the opening of the webinar itself with Chris Richard and Adam speaking on a panel about insurance in general let me first share with you a presentation format the access door space and then we'll get on with the webinar so let me just top it up my presentation closed down all the other screens I have and if the panelists can maybe switch off their video I can then present the access door space presentation for about five to eight minutes to the panelists if you don't see my presentation let me know do you see my screen Chris um I don't see your presentation okay just let me go back to the video and then press share screen I had this problem last week when I was telling me anything so now how about now yep right okay perfect okay thank you everyone for joining us today to this webinar this is a set of webinars this is the 11th week in a row for which we have put together to help companies in the space domain to continue their activities in irrespective of the kaabah 19 lockdown and and an issues that it may face so we have at so far 11 weeks in a row of presentations from different types of companies in the small satellite field so the webinars to support them and also yourself watching as well how do we proceed today is going to be a topical panel on insurance the three panelists are going to drive the discussion on on the topic they will have about 15 minutes to one hour to present their case their issues the solutions into the insurance issues and then we'll have a wrap-up session of question and answers at the very end so anyone that has any questions please use the bottom at the bottom of your screen there is a panel where you can ride your question will call upon you for the questions at the very end of the presentation so everyone is muted we may allow one or one or two people to speak up their questions otherwise we'll see how it goes okay so in terms of the webinar this week we're gonna have Chris constat there from AXA Richard Parker from Astro space and Adam stammer from Marsh I'll be your host in terms of the webinars this is the 11th week next week there'll be a space in Africa panel I hope you can join that as well in about two weeks on the first of the second when she'll are we gonna have a DTR in you neutron star I'm looking for a third analyst for that session on the 14th I'm organizing in orbit servicing propulsion a situational awareness panel as well so that those are in the making today's participants before I started with the broadcasting of this webinar we had 280 individuals which registered to this panel from 35 different countries if you look in fact amidst 'ti stiix about 60% of those registered usually attend the panel here's a chart that shows that trend so we are beating the week week seventh in terms of number of registrations we have 219 instead of 205 for that week in terms of attend type of attendees this week we have many different companies of different ranges of expertise you'll see this from this chart as well as from different types of people from senior management team to there engineering or advisors and and so on so we have a lot of range of people presenting sorry attending and listening to the panel today which is quite great and if I'm in the international organizations like the ITU European Commission and so forth access space alliance three of us are directors of the Alliance myself Betty and Christian from Germany are the directors and co-founders you you'll see that the Alliance is basically an norm for profit or Association for the small satellite sector we started this off in March 2019 when nearly over a year since we formed the Alliance we now have more than 80 80 companies actually not 76 slices but more than 80 companies now are sort of members of the Alliance and this is not updated slide of course these are their logos and names of the companies I'll send out these slides after the webinar you'll see it's yourself in terms of this ocean of companies from all over the world it's about one third from the UK one third in Europe and the other third is between the United States most of it and the rest of the world also if you are a company that's sponsoring students and internships or hiring people and you have opportunities please let me know I can share this with people that I know they're looking for jobs especially in this very difficult time so if you if you're if you are if you have those opportunities please contact me and I will distribute them to people I know they're in need of those opportunities so we'll start now with the webinar itself and I'm gonna hand over to Chris and the team to present the panel so I'm gonna stop sharing my screen and over to you Chris from now on thank you thank you very much Tony so when I first learned to Tony's webinars I was very impressed with the panelists he chose and I reached out to him to do a webinar on space insurance and ironically he had already arrangement with McGill calvetti and Morton Paul two of our very good friends in the in the business as well as a representative from the orbit so when I reached out to Richard Parker and Adam Sturmer we didn't want to simply repeat the excellent content the Miguel and Morton provided but rather focus on specific issues that we feel are important to those looking at risk management and insurance for Space Systems so will lead to a brief personal intro and describe the issues that we'll be discussing then we'll each present for about 15 minutes and then we'll have the Q&A so to remind you of the value chain of where Adam Richard and I fit in the in the ecosystem the satellite operator is typically the buyer of insurance they will appoint an insurance broker who will then approach the insurance companies access Excel assure space and others and there are about 30 or 35 companies around the world who do direct space insurance so with that I will stop sharing and I will turn it turn it over to Richard thanks Chris my name's Richard Parker thank you Tony and I run a short space which I founded in 2011 we provide space insurance with based in Bethesda Maryland and the company is owned by a New York waste insurance company em trust I have about 35 years of experience in the space industry I've been on the insurance side for about 15 years before a short space I was with a different version of AXA then Chris is with now and prior to insurance - I spent 18 years in any fracture Airbus at so short space we can provide this year up to 50 million in insurance capacity for any single risk we renew our capacity every year we have around 50 different caste providers or with excellent security and we can ensure almost any hardware in space like many insurance our main product is the launch plus one product for Geo commercial satellites this is a combined launch and in orbit coverage for satellite owners and operators but we can also cover satellite and ultracal separately and with partners at Lloyds which can also cover pre-launch and post landing so a complete end-to-end solution so we have our geo product but today I'm going to talk about Leo products we have a lot of experience in Lyon we've done some fun stuff in the over the last 10 years we've done gecko habitats we did the first insurance of home where inside the space station of 2012 we did satellite deployments from the ISS so there's pictures of the spacecraft leaving the Japanese arm in 2014 that was us we did the expandable module on the space station in 2016 and we're currently working with NASA to look at new science programs Elia so in focus today in France is going to be on Leo but I'm gonna hand over to Adam who's gonna do his introduction great thank you very much Richard so my name is Adam stürmer I work for marsh and more specifically marsh space projects so we are a global team with over 40 team members across the world from different backgrounds we have brokers engineers lawyers claim specialists that were all very much space focused so our role as Chris pointed out in his slide is read to help any client from across the world in any sector of the space industry to help manage their risks and to transact space insurance as and when required from my side I joined the team in London on the technical engineering side in 2004 after aeronautical and Space engineering masters and then I moved on to the broking side and then in 2011 moved to the safe team in Singapore with Marsh to work more with our Asian customers and then in 2017 moved to New York to do the same in in the Americas so I think since 2011 really I've been predominantly very much client focused and so for the slides today that was the approach I was going to take in terms of looking at looking at the risk management in space from a client perspective as Chris mentioned Miguel and Morton did a great job in summarizing the different insurance products and so today I want to focus more on some kind of practical tips of looking at the industry when approaching risk management and and and buying insurance with a particular focus on pricing it seems to be an area where most clients focus on and so we're going to talk about what influences the premium rates and more importantly things you can do to try and bring the total costs of the premium down for the overall economics of the programs so that's really my focus today looking forward to it thank you Tony appreciate the opportunity and speaking NC over to Chris so thank you thank you Adam as I said Chris const adder i'm the global head of space for AXA excel which is a division of acts a large international insurance company AXA excel specializes in commercial property and casualty and the space team is we have five people all together in the new york area and in paris and we offer pre-launch launch in orbit third party liability really any type of coverage that applies to two space activities we also are very involved in outreach and advocacy with governments and institutions and i'll be talking about that today i'll talk about some of the the policy issues and some of the regulatory issues that we look at particularly feeding off of the the discussion that the Richards gonna provide you about Leo and some of the things that are happening in Lea so with that I'll turn it over to Richard for his presentation and Richard I will bring up your your your a chart great thanks Chris okay so space insurance industry several challenges as I said we're going to focus on the challenges of exclusive to the small site Leo environment so we see a lot of Leo opportunities for three reasons actually particularly in the US so those small so owners typically require lower NGOs they cost less to build and launch so if you're a u.s. operator you can find sufficient coverage in the US market without having to seek insurance overseas if you're a u.s. satellite manufacturer or a US launch vehicle export control crews strictly export technical information outside of the US and small satellites tend to have shorter manufacturing durations therefore they can rapidly deploy new satellites but there's less time to procure insurance and often there's no dedicated risk manager with smaller operations so sometimes it's quicker and easier to purchase insurance in the u.s. now that being said anyone outside of the US again they're probably going to purchase their insurance locally outside of the US so it's sort of swings and roundabouts for us but there are many us-based small stuff where operators manufacturers chuckles so for this reason we do see a lot of small circle opportunities and short space as I said we have quite a bit of experience on small set sites not as much experience as some but you know we certainly have been involved so as you can see on my side there's three areas three challenges I really wanted to address today and the first one is the technology on the small south side and you can really break that out into three areas which is reliability redundancy in support so my first challenge with the small satellite world is the sort of reliability and to be honest our experience has been mixed without naming any specific programs we have put claims on a number of small satellites over the past decade for a variety of reasons we've had computer lock ups transmitter failures software errors thruster failures and antennas incorrectly installed so anyone keeping count that was five different failures on five different small satellites that we fed claims on in the last ten years so in each case the failure was serious we've made a claim there was no corrective action nothing could be done so I think you know from our experience we know that the hardware and software is the less mature we see less heritage we see lower durations in all their life testing is limited we see great abuse of off-the-shelf components versus flat proven components the approach is different to not been our geo customers you know that's okay small satellites you know frequently Firefly new technology by design they're quicker to build their shorter design life so it stands to reason that technology will evolve quicker but it means we frequently see new hardware or hardware with little on-orbit history and in a basa challenge for us the next issue is the reduced or limited limited or no redundancy mass and volume are important constraints which can limit alternative unison subsystems so we you know I fully understand that you know often redundant systems are just not going to be available we also don't have automatic FTIR for detection and isolation recovery systems so often with the generally less telemetry less fault detection systems might not even be aware that we have a problem on the spacecraft until the problem occurs and then lastly the lack of ground access you know the physics of léo typically mean that the operators don't have constant access to the spacecraft so when you do have a normally occur so you've got new hardware you don't have a redundant system you have limited to let telemetry but when you have a problem you're not you don't have access to the spacecraft in which to correct it you don't have access to the spacecraft constantly so you can correct it you might see that spacecraft for you know 45 minutes every two or three hours you might see it once a day it depends none of these technology challenges are in themselves a showstopper for insurance you know many small satellite operators have acceptable technology approaches they've been building and launching small satellites for years and to be honest risk differential is a good thing we model our portfolio using a Monte Carlo approach and it recognizes that each risk has a different level of risk reward so we thrive all insurance we thrive on this we thrive on evaluating risk and we're happy to work the clients you can provide detailed insight into that technology but that comes at a cost of time and effort you know working with insurers working with brokers you know for our geo customers that couldn't take anywhere up to 12 months and sometimes even longer actually for the more complicated programs and I think what we tend to see on the small set market is a is a very short timeline in hey I'm launching soon let's buy some insurance let's get this done so my other issue my second issue is collision risk so a lots been said on this topic in recent years but not much as improved in fact said collision risk is definitely increasing as the number of objects in leo is increasing so Greg Wyler who is the recency of one where he was interviewed in February just before one word went bankrupt and he's quoted as saying the biggest dangers in this industry right now in space daybreak one second you are there the next second you are not okay so the one that killed him was the financing but one web is now bankrupt there are 74 while web satellites in orbit with an unknown future their competitor StarLink has now launched 540 satellites and thousands more are planned by multiple operators it's going to be an exciting time to watch all these developments over the next few years it's gonna be really really fascinating however existing operators are seeing an increased in collision alerts so we've had some recent near misses you can just google debris and near misses and this is all in the public domain so last September ISA actor maneuvering our science that way away from the Starling satellite so two active spacecraft coming close and they had to avoid each other in the same month two dead spacecraft the 14 meter habitat just missed a cosmos satellite neither was able to move both were beyond the end of life in January a NASA satellite that was launched in 1983 claim within meters of crashing into a US Air Force at way so US vs. us one had an 18 metre boom it was a gradient stabilization experiment and the other way to turn so if these two spacecraft is hit each other this would have been front-page news and the debris produced would have been a major threat to other satellites so it's about 15,000 space objects cataloged by the US Space Surveillance Network I think this it click excludes the military programs which are not published so this is a really mr. global issue and I think most experts will acknowledge the daily risk but I think Leo has become a bit like the Wild West we've got pioneers settling a new territory and they're saying we need to ignore the environmental concerns for now because we've got this new industry which surrenders the promise so you know don't regulate us leave us alone it will be fine and to be fair regulatory rules if they were going to be enforced they would need to be enforced by the US Europeans by the Russian the Chinese in the Indian so I don't see a regulatory environment coming anytime soon whether that being said the FCC has recently considered adding some requirements to Leo so you know we'll see what happens there but I'm really concerned the collision risk is underestimated by the space industry in particular by the space insurance industry so I think the risk is real it's hard to measure so you know when you know insurance we like to model we like to come up with you know underlying risk of loss and many in the industry and government have really tried to measure close your risk but it's really complicated so everyone doesn't want the generic risk of loss they want this specific risk of loss their specific risk of collision and that depends depends on your orbit your inclination your attitude your eccentricity as well as the ability of your satellites to maneuver the reliability of that satellite you know what point might you lose control of that spacecraft and then at the end of life how long is it going to take for that spacecraft to reenter or deal--but so I think you know first your space I believe we're the first insurance to announce that we're not offering insurance for certainly our risks will still cover the watch to the O will still cover orbit raising will do transportation to and from the space station but we're not providing insurance for researcher just going to singly and for prolonged periods unless we have some sort of collision exclusion it's about move I don't particularly like saying that we're restricting our business but I think we need to draw attention to this particular issue I could easily decline Leo risks without any announcement I could simply price ourselves out of the market space market is very competitive I could be I could put my rates up a couple of percent and I wouldn't get penny Leo business at all but rightly or wrongly we're trying to demonstrate some sort of leadership in the market just on this topic so you know we're sort of communicating that until some sort of global rules of the world Brodeur adopted I don't want to pay for a collision especially if the satellite I was enjoying was not involved so it's hit by debris that was produced from someone else who maybe wasn't acting responsibly so I hope this issue this issue gets addressed before I polishing the curse instead of afterwards I don't know when a collision is gonna occur it could be this year it could be next year I think it's safe to say within the next 5 to 10 years we're gonna see some sort of collision I wouldn't expect at that point insurance industry if it paid a claim would say I'm sorry but we're going to exclude collision so just like as your space is doing already so I think we're just the first move my last point is the economics of small star insurance which again is very challenging so we see a lot of small set operators of launching without insurance it's hard to is hard to really get a grasp on that that number because I don't know if the small set operators are just buying insurance from my competitors and I don't see it because remember they need less insurance so that they can often go to two or three other in tourism and get that placement done but it's may be that they're unaware that insurance can be purchased maybe they don't have the budget to pay the premiums or maybe they underestimate the risk and they decide to self-insure and of course some of us particularly the large mega constellations they have a business model that can accept the risk of loss so they have a sufficient number of spacecraft that they can continue the business after a loss as I said this space insurance market is very competitive and especially so for low amounts of insurance so an insurance policy in geo meeting 300 million dollars of cover is proportionally more expensive than one needing only three million of cover so the greater the coverage the more insurers you need to sit indicate the placement and push it up the road so I hope that the predicted new small set of opportunities the wave of new business continues I hope we see not certain new opportunities for all insurers I have a really positive view on space I've been doing in my time career of watch the industry significantly reduced the cost of access to space we've got lots of new small sack launch vehicles and even lots of new people on vehicles they're gonna do right yes so we see didn't see the cost of access to space drop we've seen miniaturization of technology and we have a real need for global remote sensing and data across the globe so I think we're going to see lots of new business opportunities so I think as the as the leo the small site industry continues to grow it'll be easier to address the technology in collision risk the hardware will become more mature and proven and this wild-west approach will make way for establishment of the rules of the road and will protect the leo environment so those are my three issues my three issues those matrix challenges when working in the small side term industry back to Chris I think yeah turn it over to Adam for his presentation all right thank you Chris and Richard good points there let me just share the screen thank you so okay brilliant thank you so in the introduction I think we mentioned that a previous Power had done a great job of summarizing the different space insurance products so we weren't going to go through all of that again but just you come with some practical tips to approach the risk management side insurance and also focus on on the pricing I'm very conscious that there's a spread of customers who were watching from large corporates to the new space as well but and in other parts of the industry so I'll try and keep the advice relatively generic but we'll highlight specific points for the different sectors as we go I did see there was a lot of new space companies there which is great we worked with a lot of startups bring him through the process and really on the new space side you know even from a personal perspective it's from these programs are absolutely fascinating very passionate people and you can't get vicariously enthusiastic for them so we actually love this part of the business we have invested in some resources to support that part of the industry and we can talk about that a little bit later um so to get into the slides thing and we can really skip this I mean Marsh & McLennan yes is a gigantic company has 17 billion revenue which to be fair gives a little bit of stability and ability to put on those resources but but our team are down here in Marsh and the insurance breaking risk management as we said we're a global team nine offices globally different disciplines required to deliver the service and client focused so increases original diagram we act as a broker we're a hundred percent agent of the insured we represent customers interests entirely against that of the the insurers so really one team with the client so with that I ran through these slides last night and it only took me about 45 minutes to get through them so don't worry I am definitely not gonna spend too much time on this one because realistically most breakers and insurers have this type of risk management lifecycle chart really all of them at their core very simple you know first you need to identify your risk and then put in place actions to manage them as far as possible and what risk is remaining basically you have to retain it or transfer it in the form of insurance so insurance really is is the byproduct of the risk management process obviously the main aim is to keep the cost down to limit the amount of premium that you'll be spending and the number of policies that you need in the first place so I think the first kind of tip for the the startups really is you know a lot of this stuff you can do yourself I mean risk will be inherent in everything you do every day you'll be thinking about it day and probably nights as well so we found that putting just a bit of time around structuring those risk and really really helped I would recommend focusing on the four pillars here strategic operational regulatory financial risks and you know even maybe do a risk map yourself you know with severity of event versus likelihood and that will help you pull out the key priorities with which to focus on I would also recommend to start the process early obviously the earlier you start the risk management process then the longer you have to put these Michigan's in so the and this can really pay dividends I mean it's taken example if looking at your contractual negotiation phase with the satellite manufacturers and the operators and reverse if you're on the other side of the fence know a bit of time and effort they're talking about the risk and indemnities in terms of the transfer of risk can really pay a lot of dividends later when you're looking to buy the insurance because they should be in a more simple manner maybe less exposure in the first place so really I think you start the process early do as yourself I mean that I suppose the larger corporates will either have a risk manager or you may be a risk manager that have these expertise and so these may be in place already and certainly for those larger risk profiles you know we're happily helped guide through that process if you have any challenges bring some benchmarking analysis help you kind of understand your financial tolerance to loss in terms of the cost of retaining that risk and we found certainly on some of the constellations some risk modeling can also be supportive where you're trying to actually understand the probability of failure across the different satellites and planes and and orbit profiles versus so this is certainly a key area but inevitably at some point you may realize that or decide that you want to buy insurance and so you've kind of got to that phase you've worked out where your so and you want to reassure say say what now well yeah of course you know feel free to call the broker but at the same time it's really about trying to understand your options this chart was presented before so we're not going to go through it in a lot of detail but really the main takeaway is that for each party within the space program there is an insurance product available that will ensure the satellite throughout the program life this is the chart from Chris actually so thank you very much ye has done a great job of breaking this down and we can see that most of it is focused on asset insurance so if the satellite fails or the wrong vehicle breaks then you can recoup your cost of replacement or fixing the satellite but also these can be tailored to business interruption exposures so operational expenses of managing delays perhaps or or business continuity exposures they're predominantly linked to physical loss or damage the one that we find is quite useful as startups is this contingent business interruption on the satellite owner pre-launch phase you know with a delayed revenue model that a lot of space programs go through your cash flow can be really critical and this can help manage that in the event of a delay caused by damage to the satellite or launch vehicle I mean that's insured in the pre-launch market which has its own volatility say the variety is somewhat sporadic but in its availability but it's certainly a good option I think I can cover off launch reliability quite quickly because this is generally for the most part provided by the launch service provider depending on where you register your stat alights you may need to top up the limited liability looks extend in orbit and you can either do that you know ask the more service providers if they have an option to do that or do it yourself so that's relatively straightforward I mean we're going to focus on the launch insurance today but there are other types of in corporate level insurance that can support programs as well like trade credits if you have an anchor customer you have concerns over the payment or you are fundamentally relying on a license then there's political risks as well so there are a multitude of options but again it's all about trying to reduce the amount of premium that you need to spend and maybe just spend more time the finances that might be driving some of these requirements you know can can can help as well so in the small sap world we're focusing on that there Chris mentioned 30 to 40 insurers in space market doing launch in orbit insurance which is it was absolutely the case but of that really only 10 to 12 say a proactive in the small SATs segment which isn't necessarily a problem because the values are so much low you need less insurers to do that but some of the insurers come up with their own policies so acts here the the seamless pre-launch and launch insurance policy Morten explained his Bifrost product and others including Britt and his cots got left and and there are plenty others so it can be a bit confusing when you're looking at your options obviously the broker can talk you through the differences in the the coverage is there one thing that we're doing at Marsh is we have set up an internal control new space team of 17 people around the globe different different disciplines to identify and support new space specifically so we as part of that are developing our own policy wording to give some kind of baseline and also developing some material to help educate and also make each of the stages as smooth as efficient as possible so we have a white paper it talks about the risks and the the insurance and the risk management process a little bit more so please feel free to get in contact you can send that through and talk offline isn't no problem at all for those of you don't know reading about insurances is a surefire cure for insomnia so I can send it through but avoid bed and we can talk about it in the morning but in all seriousness we we find the launch insurance probably to be the most interesting so we're going to focus on that it really can be used as a business enabler rather than just an unwanted cost but the other reason for focusing is that on it is quite honestly because it's the most expensive it typically is the third or fourth largest cost of a satellite program and obviously a critical phase of the risk as well so when looking at the pricing for launch in orbit we've broken this down into external factors which you can control which we can't control outside of your control and internal factors which you have some level of control over so in terms of external factors then yes of course the satellite health if you have problems with a range that's why or you start building a satellite and similar satellites are failing in orbit then that's going to affect your premium rating but the one I want to focus on here is the recent market experience because this is really where the volatility of the market provides incredible challenges for for our clients Chris is going to talk more about the market dynamics but in summary there's been around 1.2 billion dollars of claims in the last 12 months as reported price to face track and we had a space in you story and that's in comparison to about five or six hundred dollars in premium so upon that first failure in July of last year of the series the rates pretty much doubled overnight and since then we've had more losses which has increased the prices even further and that's obviously disastrous for our clients in terms of budgeting it really we do not underestimate the troubles that that puts our clients through so managing the volatility as you have adjusted so if you can see so obviously you can see the volatility especially only in orbit side here you know two or three times which is which is very challenging for customers so in terms of managing this volatility we would recommend you again preparing early if you're a small set operator that just needs one or two insurers to buy the insurance get into the market see what the pricing is if it fits with your budget I've recommended seriously considering taking it because we're at a point in the market now where any further losses are probably going to increase the rates further rates go down very slowly but they go up quickly so there's always that benefit of going in only just to check but now if you have a larger stomach should a bigger program then getting into the market early will give you the option to maybe buy just a percentage of your some insured and then perhaps you buy a little bit more later and you can kind of spot by towards launch your up to your full some insured and can normalize the volatility in the market so that's that's one way of managing it to a certain extent but really a lot of it comes down to initial budgeting in the business plan please keep as much margin in terms of your premium budgeting as possible because the volatility in space insurance is very high in orbit renewals have less ability to manage the timing of the placement because you have a fixed contamination and renewal date so there really it's about being closer to the keeping closer to the market maybe keeping a Jalan on good quotations that come in for binding again budgeting but also potentially maybe even consider of combining multiple satellites if you have them for placement for package or even a system level performance if you can kind of break the insurers away from thinking about the risk on a percentage increase basis and rebates line there their pricing expectations were new coverage that can help but realistically if you're looking for the same type of coverage that you had 12 months ago there's not much you can do to get around the fact that you need to pay more at the moment so I think the volatility is is a big issue and the overall amount as well which I think we're going to come on to later but the amount albeit okay when you look at the average in comparison to the last few years it is very high so that's as well but then if we're looking at the internal factors here again if you're a small SAP operator then really and you're just looking for launch vehicle flight only insurance and I think I saw one of the cue aids come up for a falcon already you know really the the pricing is going to be fundamentally driven by the launch vehicle you select it's the risk during the launch phase is the launch vehicle it's not it's pretty agnostic to the choice of the satellite so yes there are deployers and different orbits they obviously have some implication but it's mainly the the launch vehicle choice but if you are a large satellite or you're looking for in orbit insurance then the choice of the satellite obviously becomes the main driver for the enormity of the price the risk that your pricing will be insurers of pricing so there I think Richard alluded to you know some of the main factors the heritage margins redundancy and really it's about getting in front of the insurers and giving them as much information in detail about as possible more they know the more comfortable they're going to be with the the risk profile and it will result in lower rates so and that's especially true where you have new technology because they're even more education is required of the insurers to the insurance it's not car insurance every policy is tailored to your own needs so it needs time with the insurers to develop the relationship on a personal level and to get them to understand the technology the market it has a great history of supporting new technology but there is a process and there is a there is an impact if you look here we've got the blue line that's walking it shows the variance of the cheapest rate on the deal cheapest insurer and the most expensive and even for relatively large sums ensure the the differential can be maybe plus or minus five percent while for technically challenging risks that differential is much wider maybe ten to fifteen percent plus or minus and say the more your some insured is that the more you have to come up this steep pricing curve and essentially it will result in higher higher premium rates for high assumption should and on specifically on new technology so again if we can kind of balance this out that makes a big difference and and as the market becomes tougher and harder then really the pricing differential for some insured increases as well so we're seeing greater ranges even on the better rate risk profiles at the moment as well so management of the some insured is also a key part of the strategy and I don't want to take up too much time so we're just finished with the coverage requirements I mean this is really where you get the value for your premium there are ways that you can try and save money here if you're looking to reduce some of the cost we find that on an individual satellite insurance basis the reduction in premium that you get for the level of risk retention is not quite reflective of that risky or to keep but certainly is an option and as is potentially looking to restructure the coverage maybe if you have multiple satellites you can put in more sophisticated kind of layers of risk retention and maybe get some better value there but really there are plenty of options I mean the coverage for the launch insurance is very wide anyway it's all risks insurance so unless it's specifically excluded then it should be covered but there are ways of looking at this to try and keep the overall project costs down so I think those were the main points that I kind of want to bring out here and so I can pass back to Chris reader the main takeaways are prepare early both in the risk management phase and the insurance phase and really spend time spend time with insurers with brokers understanding a risk and and and and getting an insurance structure that meets your overall risk tolerance as far as possible and look forward to talking more later thank you very much indeed I'm Chris thanks Adam if you want to stop sharing your screen up at the top that'd be great perfect so um let me talk a little bit about some of these some different types of issues a lot of this has been covered already by Richard and by Adam but the the the the key point that I want to make is the space insurance is very critical to innovation and investment what does that mean that means that a lot of investment would never happen were there no insurance to cover space risks so space insurance allows companies to take risks and know that if they have failures you know as long as work we're comfortable with insuring them that they can innovate and they can get investment an accident cell we I like to say we embrace risk what does that mean that means that we like to find a way to ensure even even non-traditional so Richard talked about the work he's done in Leo we've were actually the market leader in small set insurance we have over 90 percent market share in small SATs having insured hundreds and hundreds of them for launch vehicle flight and many a for on-orbit operations I like we innovate also Adam mentioned the seamless coverage that we provide what we found was that satellite small sat manufacturers and operators would have a difficult time buying insurance for the transportation of their satellite from the factory to the launch site and installing it on the launch vehicles so we developed essentially a policy that goes as we say from loading dock to orbit and will ensure the satellite during the transportation during the integration of the launch vehicle and during launch vehicle flight up to orbit and finally we encourage responsible behavior in space I'll have a lot more to say about that shortly but that's something that we feel is a very key element Richard talked quite a bit about the issues in Leo the collision risk and we find that that really does need to be addressed and does need to be you know it is very challenging for us in terms of principles of insurance of space insurance we've talked a lot about that I don't need to cover these we do take virtually all the risk from launch onwards and as Adam said it is the third largest program cost so it's a significant significant cost for satellite owners operators manufacturers launch providers Richard talked about some of the changing space industry dynamics obviously small satellites and large constellations it's very easy for a company who wants to launch say they want to have a constellation of a thousand satellites they can launch 1100 of them and if 100 of them fail they still have their thousand so in they essentially self-insure on the many of the larger constellations obviously technology is changing insurance is very volatile as Adam said I've got some charts on that and the large range image shirt use Richard touch briefly on that but with a market capacity in the say six hundred million dollars or so there's six hundred million of capital in the space insurance market so certainly for the largest risks that full amount of capital is needed but for small risks small launch vehicles small satellites there it is more competitive because they don't need quite as much capacity for that a couple of interesting statistics for 2020 to date the number of launches is the highest it's been in the last ten eleven years except for 2018 so it's the there have been more launches this year than any other year in the last 11 10 except for 2018 and yet the insurance premium is the lowest it's been in that same period so what we're seeing is the effect of fewer insured launches this year with the deployment of the StarLink constellation but also the effects of the kovat with a number of launch sites being locked down for the time being that will change the slope of that line will increase but we're looking at a total premium this year probably in a similar range to where it was in 2018 and 2019 maybe even slightly less so it'll be an interesting year for us a bit of a challenging year but a pretty exciting year there's a lot going on if we look at the premiums and losses over the last 20 years we see that from 2002 to 2012 the premium the blue bars ranged from 750 million dollars to a billion dollars a year which was certainly sufficient to pay even the largest the worst years 2007 as an example but since 2012 pricing has come down by about 50% and as a result the the amount of premium in the market is not sufficient to pay the losses we've seen now you see 2019 there the losses in 2019 were not out of family they were in family with 2013 2007 2001 so the result of that was that a number of insurance companies pulled out of the the business the capacity decreased and and pricing being a function of capacity or capital pricing did increase in fact the pricing has doubled tripled even quadrupled in some cases so this the business is profitable if it's priced correctly does that mean that prices need to go up yes it does it means prices need to go up as I said the premium in 2020 will probably not be anything more than say five hundred million dollars or so depending on how quickly things get rolling but we need to get that premium back up to a sustainable level because we know what the peak lost years can be and these are just you can see four of the peak lost years but we've seen years when losses have been almost two billion dollars so we need to be ready for that if we look at pricing Adam showed a similar version of this chart you can see that the pricing hit a peak in 2003 2004 and and and hit the bottom into 2018-2019 prices since then it increased significantly but they've only increased to where they were say six or seven years ago they haven't gone back obviously to the level they were at say 15 years or so ago so the increase does affect the buyers of space insurance but it's important to recognize that in order to maintain a sustainable market we need to have pricing that covers the expected losses so let's talk a little bit about policy issues there are many many organizations who are looking at responsible space activity and when I say sponsible space activity I mean cleaning up after yourself not leaving a mess in orbit and making sure that the space is available for everyone to use there are various levels of of compliance and levels of bars that people need to to reach the lowest being regulations and licensing in order to get a license to launch a satellite or a launch vehicle you need to meet a certain minimum set of requirements and that means you then get the license but that's just the that's just the the minimum except a level of responsibility next would come things like best practices standards guidelines what have you and there are a lot of organizations working on those those types of issues everything from AI double-a to other industry groups government agencies here here and abroad we're trying to figure out a way to develop best practices and standards that will make space even more safe for people to use and then finally there's an interesting effort by the World Economic Forum called the space sustainability rating which is almost like what we have here in the US a LEED rating which is given to building buildings for their compliance with very high levels of of greenness if you will so this rating is in development it'll take a few years to roll out but it it'll basically be something that a an organization can show as we are doing more than just the baseline so what are some of the things that we at AXA Excel are very very big on one of them is post-mission disposal we believe very strongly that the the current guideline that says 25 years after the end of your operational life your object needs to be out of out of its orbit either deorbited and burn up in the atmosphere or move to a disposal orbit we feel that 25 years should be reduced then the reason for that is that that 25 year rule came about about 25 years ago when there was a lot less space activity today there's just so much more activity so many more launches it's interesting this year there have been more satellites launched just through today than there have in any previous year on record and we're not even halfway through the year so there's just so much more activity we really need to make space accessible and safe for people to operate in so big believers in post mission disposal and a number of organizations are working on that we also believe in in having beacons and propulsion on satellites beacons for positive identification recognize some people may not want to put beacons on their satellites for whatever reason but we believe that every satellite and every rocket body that's left in orbit should have a beacon on it with a unique identifier so that it's easily tracked and easily there's a easy chain-of-custody for it propulsion for collision avoidance propulsion for end-of-life disposal very important and propulsion used to be a very complex very large system on satellites now there are some very elegant solutions that are fairly inexpensive and fairly small that you can even use on say a 3u CubeSat finally on orbit inspection and repair and active debris removal we're very involved in some organizations like confers where we're trying to come up with standards and best practices for on-orbit servicing what we found was of the 85 or so geo satellites launched since 2000 that had significant anomalies on them about 60 of them would have benefited from on-orbit inspection just being able to go up and see what was wrong with the satellite what happened what broke not so much for us as insurers but for the satellite manufacturer to make sure that they can fix that problem and not have it happen again and for the satellite operators so they know then how to take care of that that issue so as an insurance company we actually have some levers and knobs we can use to incentivize good behavior and we really like to think that we can encourage organizations companies satellite operators and what-have-you to be role models to do the right thing not simply because you have to do but because you want to show your responsibility we work with several clients who are very proud of the fact that they go beyond merely the baseline of responsibilities and are quite a bit more diligent about about what they do in space so bottom line responsible behavior is the baseline it's it's not what you aspire to that's the minimum that you get to then what you want to do is go beyond that do what's good for the environment don't leave a mess clean up behind after yourself and don't leave anything in orbit so finally as I said at the beginning space insurance is a very critical enabler for for our industry and without it there would be a lot less investment whether it's in Leo startups or big geo programs so it's it's a very important part of our business we have suffered quite significant losses over the past several years we've had since 2018 as an example we've had 1.1 billion dollars of premium and 1.6 billion dollars of losses so that's not a that's not a sustainable model as a result insurance companies have become more conservative and they they're trying to find ways to reduce this volatility so in terms of responsibilities we work very closely with industry with governments with institutions and with our colleagues competitors and everyone else in the business we want to have smart clients we want to have smart brokers smart competitors we want everyone to do the right things so we're leading the insurance market we feel we're leading the insurance market in returning to profitability and responsibility in space I'll turn it over to the Q&A thank you Chris Thank You Adam and Richard thank you so much very interesting topics maybe you can come online all of all three of you Chris I think it's up to you now to manage the Q&A session and also other potential discussions and chats there's a Q&A window at the very bottom there's a lot of people about 16 different questions already been asked quite a lot we have a half an hour basically on our time to answer all of them for others basically if you don't like going through the questions you can see them yourselves the three of you can see them with you open them up and then one by one Chris I allow you to do that okay okay sure and I'll try to I'll try to combine questions if I see that there there's commonality and in what people are asking you know people do often ask about the pricing of insurance and it's always very difficult to to give pricing in a forum like this because we need to do our due diligence we need to understand the technical risks the the business risks and so on so we we won't be answering any specific pricing issues today but we encourage you to work with us into the future you know we you can figure out what the failure rates of launch vehicles are that's all public information and that gives you sort of a the the technical gate that we need to get through one of the interesting things about pricing is that there's a compression of pricing in other words the best risks probably pay too much and the worst risks probably pay too little based on their pure technical issues but that's because we write a portfolio of business and if we were to price everything purely on the historical failure rates that would not be that would not work for many clients so there is this compression of pricing but that actually helps us to be able to write a portfolio of of risks so there's a question here regarding collision risk how can the insurance industry be a supporting force in driving a responsible behavior Richard do you want to talk about that given your concerns about the collision risk yeah it's it's challenging I think some of the points you mentioned you know with propulsion systems and deal between cleaning up after yourself and all these good things I feel a little bit unable to really move the dial as an individual insurer what can I actually do I support everything that you said I support you know other organizations participating in this type of forum do a lot of networking we do a lot with in the Washington DC community on this issue but ultimately what can I do I've taken the step of saying I'm really worried about collision risk to the point where I'm actually pulling back because of it it's tough for being home and worse we're a single market you know in a very big ocean of the industry I'm afraid it's probably going to be we have a collision and then everyone will do something about it let me ask you a Richard there are a couple of questions that sort of work together so maybe you can talk about it one question is how receptive of clients been so far to a collision exclusion and then a second question what do you do about attribution how do you determine if a failure was due to a collision and therefore would be excluded under that ok so we started really raising this red flag a lot of it is to differentiate ourselves to our capacity providers you know to be honest I would I would love to be able to write insurance for everyone every single approach we get and get you know get you know sell insurance on a volume basis rather than being selective that's not what we do we are very selective we are the we are the the fund end of the mutual fund world you know we we believe we can pick and choose the risks to build a portfolio to have the right approach so how have people being receptive they're not receptive to it because to be honest they can go to you they can go to any other insurer in the US and if you've got a fairly low sum insured you can get your placement done I was always interested to hear that I'm saying you know maybe there was only ten insurers that are doing the small sack business I don't know it'd be more than that definitely more opportunities so I think at the moment no we haven't with an exclusion an exclusion for collision if there's any insurance there who loves collision I'm quite happy they can write reinsurance some and we can track out the collision if they really think there's no risk that would be great that'd be easy for them in terms of liability would be policy that we issue that everyone issues is very broad it's an all risks policy so it's covering you know workmanship design operations the environment so anything in the environment coronal mass ejections me to stroke debris so really what you're gonna what we're going to be faced with is someone's going to come to us and say you know we suspect we kind of collision but the end result is our spacecraft is either no longer there core it's no longer working please pay the Train so in the first instance we're gonna have to pay claim could we subrogate could we go and find out which which debris hit the spacecraft where was that generated from it cetera it's unlikely that that's that is feasible that when we did establish if we were able to establish that that would stand up in the courts whether we could pursue someone overseas I think that's a dead end and probably a waste of time and money ultimately Adam there are a couple of questions here that deal with new technologies there's a question about our launch insurance prices increasing due to new launchers and how do you plan to tackle space tourism given the marsh has done a lot of work both with new launchers and with space tourism why don't you go ahead and talk about how that's affecting the market and where you see things going sure thank you and yes a new launches will inevitably certainly in the first few launches pay a higher rate but that's more related to the historical reliability of of new launches and the fact that there's less heritage in that technology the the premium rates increases on a market level and more driven by the market profitability in terms of the claims versus the premium so you weighting factors is really a combination of the market itself and the individual risk profile as a baseline against that market so the new launch vehicles initially will be higher than the standard risk profile because they don't have that history and I think Chris you have some stats that show that over 30% of the first two launches of illogical fail so it is obviously the risky end of the business but those we would expect those premium rates to come down relatively quickly as more successful launches are shown on a launch basis and really by you know seven to ten successful launches you know you'll be back down to the baseline level maybe just a little bit above some of the the more established service providers so that's more of a risk we're very bullish about the the supporting this small launchers excuse me we have a number of them on our client list and yeah we we see great value in what they're doing so a few of those are coming to launch in the next nine months or so and so excited to see how that's going to happen in terms of the human spaceflight aspect yeah this is a really innovative area it's great that it's an area of the industry and that is growing and therefore is an insurance market I think we are innovating to kind of expand the PI of space insurance which is great there's still a lot of work to be done on the human spaceflight aspect and it's being done right now I mean it's predominantly being looked at in the aviation liability market but capacity is tough and typically what the insurers that have a space-themed eye space underwriting team like crystal or Richard to help complement the a VA shinai ability team with space related knowledge but there are the marketplaces you can go into travel accident even for low limits of injuries so but it's a it's a tough work at the moment we're working on it so I think it's a case of we do believe it's going to be a promising area of insurance and we do believe the market will respond but we're kind of in the process of driving that right now okay very good thank you insurance in terms of the the ten insurers yeah I say that they're tender re proactive yes you can take small set risk to know my thoughts of 40 engineers that are out there in terms of really you know innovating and and and actively going small South conferences and engaging with clients yeah it is a it is definitely thanks Adam so if you I'll take a few questions here one question about the data that I gave on the usefulness the utility of on-orbit inspection in our we have a very comprehensive database of anomalies on geo satellites launched since 2000 but we have actually a much broader database but the the one that we analyzed the most covers the the period from 2002 to present and geo satellites and what we found is their 85 saddle 85 geo satellites that have suffered significant loss of capability over that time of the say six hundred and some-odd geo satellites that have been launched of those 85 satellites we've in looking at the types of anomalies they've had we see that about 60 of them would actually benefit from on overt inspections and again on-orbit inspection is not for us you know we will we'll rely on the satellite operator and the manufacturer to tell us what went wrong inspection can help but it's really for the manufacturer to develop lessons learned and for the operator to fix their their CONOPS for the particular mission so we're very big fans of on-orbit inspection there are a number of companies who were looking at it and we strongly encourage it there are several questions about the the incentives that we've suggested and whether the the industry has responded to it we haven't actually said okay if you do this we will reduce your premium and that's not really the way we would expect it to work it's as I said there's there's a baseline level of responsible activity responsible activity is the baseline it's not the ass operation it's not what you aim to achieve ultimately it's really important to recognize that we would much prefer to see our clients taking every step they can within reason to keep space safe and to act responsibly so in our view is not so much that we reward those who do that but we might decide that those who don't do it who actively don't follow the the guidelines the rules or what have you maybe we would ask them why and and consider saying something like okay to make space better for everyone we as an insurance company do have the levers and knobs of pricing and coverage and the like we would we would like to as Adam and Richard both said you know we want to we want to support the industry but I really do think that it's important for us to use our position to be able to say we believe you should act responsibly the just looking at the questions here there's a question on cyber any comments on insurance for cyber security I'll start off and please Richard and Adam jump in there there is an effort in fact there is a clause that's now in space insurance policies that that clarifies what coverage is offered as Adam said earlier our our policies are all risks and ever in other words they cover everything except what's explicitly excluded and there's never been an explicit cyber exclusion there are exclusions for war for terrorism and the like so if an act of cyber attack was deemed to be one of those if it could be excluded if it's something else indeterminate or if it's some kid hacking on his on his on his computer and he manages to destroy a satellite and we can and that's what we can trace it to that would be a more that would be a more difficult situation but the cyber clarification wording and there are several versions of it but they they act in very similar ways the cyber clarification wording would hopefully be there to resolve those types of issues Richard Adam you guys have anything on cyber I do think about cyber vs. Leo versus geo so I think on the cyber side I think cyberattack on geo is still going to be challenging geo geo is in a geo orbit you probably need the resources of a country to to you know reach a spacecraft to crack the encryption you know to get a command into a spacecraft to disable it to do something I think that's potentially doable with a nation-state and then would that be excluded under the wall coverage this has been a big sort of discussion within the industry I think on the Leo side I think of the definitely the barrier to hacking [Music] participating in a cyber attack on a Leo spacecraft is probably lower I would imagine is probably it's definitely significantly easier significantly easier to communicate to a spacecraft in mia is that is the level of software encryption a translation etc exact is that lower I would think so so definitely yeah it's a concern I'm very pleased with with the new language and the new approach that the insurance industry is taking it is the right way forward I did I made something interesting so a DEFCON which is the hacker the hacker conference it's in Vegas every year so just got canceled so it's not this year but the Air Force took a dummy GPS spacecraft platform spacecraft on the ground and they basically opened it up to hackers so it was one of these hacking competitions so it was really interested to see you know was everyone it was any of the hackers at DEFCON where they were gonna be able to crack a u.s. GPS spacecraft that would have been really fascinating so maybe next year yeah I threw my side or from I think you know their side the clarification has been quite challenging for the clients actually I think I understand the reason for it in terms of the clarification from the LMA of the regulators because actually when we asked we have some customers who are typically quite sensitive to cyber coverage and when we ask the insurer before the clarification fields came out there was a mixture of feedback from the insurance some said well it's not excluded so it would be covered and others said well yes we understand that but how could you hack a Geo satellite in particular without conceits sponsoring or you know to merge in towards the war or the Terrorism saw exclusions that could be mitigated funds of that but so I understand the reason for the clarification but some of our customers feel that actually you've taken potential of a claim being paid for for cyber and specifically highlighted that it won't be for malicious acts so that's okay okay that's the way it's fallen but there is no there's no replacement for that coverage there's the market hasn't really mobilized extent of writing back there was meant to be an SRC to a write back for that coverage and you know some people thought that that was just trying to maybe get some more more premium but either way that hasn't really manifested there are a couple of insurers that are forging the path and on this in terms of cyber asset liability but it's not really there as a market option to be able to say okay you now have the cyber clarification which excludes a malicious cyber but there's no definitive right back and I think that's a problem because especially some of our customers you have corporate side the coverage with an exclusion for SpaceX and you know they now have a whole they I didn't realize before or was kind of a little bit vague in it so yeah I think this is an area that we as a market really need to work on and as fast as possible actually just to come back to Adam on that point if I can so I think the challenge on the side beside is once you've identified this side the piece that you've carved it off it sort of then falls into the cyber market you know we're short space we utilize the Lloyds platforms fantastic platform it gives us access it gives the security we can play as an equal player you know in the market but Lloyds is very much sort of you know lines of business are defined by codes and everyone has to stay in their Lane so once you sort of say okay this is the cyber bonus in space then that becomes the domain of the cyber underwriters so we difficult for a space guides and then say okay I've got rid of the side of these okay let me let me come and let me work with brokers that work with clients to understand what what systems they've got to prevent this type of attack and then if it does happen what systems they've got to recover from it we can probably get comfortable we could probably write it back but by that point it's a cyber wrist and so I think you know we're looking at the cyber underwriters worldwide to come in and write that back business back so that's really how it is for us that's a fair point and I don't disagree that that was probably the right home for it in the cyber market but there I mean pretty sure of your you have your space specifically space under other underwriters do you have cyber teams perhaps you know like in the human spaceflight world where there's space teams are supporting that the teams in the innovation liability perhaps then some of the wider the larger companies where they have space team and a cyber team that's really where they can work it out and provide that product and agreed yeah okay let me take a couple questions here one is you know we've talked a lot about risk what about the the positive future that we see and it's very interesting to see that in the last week both SES and indel sat have ordered 10 satellites to replace their c-band capacity to move out of the spectrum that will be used for 5g 10 satellites also be launched within say 2 or 3 years that's that's very that's very exciting for us there's a lot of good new business there so we're pretty excited and even though the Geo market has slowed down had slowed down in the last several years our feeling is maybe we're seeing the the bloom coming off the rose on some of the leo constellations either for technology reasons or competitive reasons obviously StarLink is is going gung-ho and and pushing that system as hard as they can so I think a lot of companies will reassess their activity I think there's a place for Geo there's a place oh there's a place for Leo and some companies are exercising all three but I think the Geo market will will recover there are several questions here about what is what can the space insurance industry do about these norms of behavior about changing regulations about about all that these things take time any sort of process involving regulation takes a lot of time and you have different voices when I said there were 50 organizations looking at responsible space activity those 50 organizations often have opposing views on various issues so it's not a simple matter of getting everyone to sit around at a table and say yes of course this is the right thing to do I look back to when I was young and and and I've told the story often that seatbelts in automobiles were when they finally developed seatbelts they were an option that cost more to have it was a it was a it was a premium option to have seatbelts in your car well obviously in current insurance companies and manufacturers realized that it made driving safer and so it became rather than an option it became mandatory and now we see it in all cars obviously so I think that process that's part of the process and I'm not saying it will take a bad day in space to get people to decide that beacons are propulsion or a five-year Yorba rule are called for but I think those are the types of things that that will happen at some point and we need to be ready to to address those there I see that we have a number of people online from Department of Commerce and from other US government entities and I would say you know we in the insurance business we want to work with the government we want to work with you we want to help you and show you what we can do our objective isn't simply to say ah well you know you get a good driver discount because you are meeting the minimum standards no as I said we want people who are role models who aspire to do the most responsible things in space and and to reward those so you know with the with the US government we and and and foreign governments and institutions we we look forward to working you know educating you on what we do and how we do it how we look at risk and and hopefully coming up with some some form of incentives and incentivizing people to do the right thing their their various notices of proposed rulemaking out there FCC and others and you know we want to work with those organizations to try and make sure that everyone understands what the what the issues really are the I did have any any other comments from Richard and Adam on that or we had talked about having a sort of a general question about you know maybe the effect of Cova the weather that has affected your companies your company's appetite for being in the space business any comments on that Richard and Adam I initially thought we would be as an industry somewhat immune from Kobe I think in the beginning I fell into that naivety hole and I thought well you know certainly in the u.s. cement manufacturing wrong vehicle manufacturing sort of essential business need to carry on spacecraft typically are fully financed they take two or three years to build so you know you lose a few months on on the manufacturing cycle yeah we can call that back but actually we have seen a fairly significant impact you know most of the launch sites have slowed or closed we definitely seen a slowdown on financing of new products you know I think the one way bankruptcy although it was triggered by the lack of financing in Copiah I think probably had a bit of a death sentence hanging over it for the last few years you know certainly think because of a lack of launches in the last few months actual earned premium incomes probably going to be down this month I mean we have a huge amount of spacecraft they're going to launched in the next two or three months so I I'm definitely concerned about Co fit but I think overall with somewhat okay yeah the space market is typically in able to separate itself somewhat from the the wider insurance affects these have its so its remoteness to any other type of market in the insurance side but I wonder at some point whether the the impacts of kind of reduced earnings for the insurers claims obviously new just general financial constrictions may fall and we had one insurer who raised a prediction and a letter that the insurance rate would increase significantly on the back of Coheed we haven't seen it yet but as as rich said we haven't quite seen the impact of reduced premium income this year from delayed launches yet I know in fact their demand side too much will be you know see some of our customers on the maritime enero in particular of suffered some short-term hits so in general I think the question is still unanswered I'd say we would hope not we'd hope that the general dynamics of the space insurance market will continue to play out alone but we'll wait to see and fingers crossed we can keep the rates down for all of our customers as much possible to attract so much business into the market as possible okay exactly that's one more point I don't I think Kovac might keep the rates up because a lot of my capacity providers they don't just they're not space under eyes its face of Aviation's basically the ocean is sort of this partnership within the industry and the aviation market is under a lot of pressure the aircraft are not flying they're not paying premiums so I I feel that I have been very clear Monday on the space side to maintain the current rating environment because of coded we're coming to the end of our time we could talk about this for a lot longer and and you know Tony has done a great job in putting this together I want to give each of you 15 seconds to say how you see things how you want to see things going let's start with you Richard very briefly developments of a new business happening today I think it's going to be great for insurers I see it I see a very promising outlook I just hope it comes up a little bit quicker we've been promised this new wave of new SAP business over the last few years I think it's still there I think it's still coming I just I don't know wait I don't my wait till retirement I want to do it now okay Adam yeah thanks we've got a lot of ground you think I'm the new space side we do a very bullish on that with putting a lot of resources towards it I'm happy to support customers as they come through in space in general very positive and I suppose that the main takeaways from our my side was just really to get involved early prepare early start talking earlier and take time to get the right product for yourself and use call if you need a hand with anything thanks Adam so from my point of view I've been in this business for 36 years and and every day is something new so I love this business I think it has a great future I think we're a key part of the space industry and I'm really excited about the work that we can do in this business I want to thank Richard and Adam my fellow panelists and of course Tony for arranging the program you've done a fantastic job here hopefully we'll get lots of people reaching out to us I'm asking the questions that maybe didn't get answered so please do that and thank you the audience for your attention for your questions and we hope you've learned more about space and risk and insurance and we look forward to working with you in the future thank you before we leave I just want to thank you again for the session a very interesting subject I was involved for five years of oneweb I'm still I'm involved as well right now I was the one in initiating the license for the UK Space Agency the launch in operations license I was involved also in shaping the insurance requirements for these large constellations I wouldn't call them mega constellations because it's not millions of satellites but large constellations so myself and a team of other people within one weapon and the the brokers actually were actively pushing for a licensing regime in the UK for these large constellations eventually we got something which was very useful for us in that respect I have a simple question which I of course I didn't write on the Q&A box if you keep our satellites up in space at the end of life like now the GSO will go into the graveyard and the mirrors will remain in me or for example well you still will they still be insured against the temporary liability for example good question or ever for thousands of years as opposed no as long as they pose a risk as long as they do pose a risk it's probably wise to have some sort of a regime that that takes care of that I suspect that they they may always pose a risk for the hundreds of years they remain in orbit and so forth so anyway so I run a poll most of the people about 55 people are very answer the poll thank you so much I'm gonna end the poll right now Chris Richard and Adam I will send you all the Q&A separately if you would like to answer them by typing them then I will send them back to the attendees afterwards that way each of those questions at least have been answered if you can find a time to if you can find the time actually to answer them and then the people will get their answers back thank you very much to you thank you also to the participants next weeks in fact if I can share my screen again next week's panel is on space in Africa it's on the screen now the week after would be a DTI neutral star and then the week after that would be orbit servicing and so forth situational awareness and so forth so hope to add all the panelists apparently some sorry the attendees a come come back to also look at those panels in the future thank you very much I'll leave you with that take care all right thank you turning right bye-bye