Christian Challenges Muslim On The Preservation Of The Bible! Muhammed Ali

He said he said you believe that um certain things were revealed but not like all of the Old Testament. So are you a Christian yourself or practicing Christian? I'm I'm a bad Christian but I'm a Christian. I grew up Christian. Yeah. Me my dad's a pastor. Okay. The same you probably the first Christian to tell me I'm a bad Christian. Most Christians don't say that. You know they don't say that Christian. No. No. They don't say I'm a bad Christian. I'm a bad Christian cuz I can't say I'm a good Christian cuz obviously God's listened to everything I'm saying. So I can't say I'm a good Christian. You know what I mean? Well, you know, most Christians are living their life thinking that Jesus died for their sins. Why? Why does it matter if you're a bad or a good Christian? He died for my sins, but obviously I've got to respect that one. I can't not respect it, can I? Sure. But you're a you're a deficient human being. Everyone would sin. Nobody doesn't sin. You You're not a perfect person, basically. Yeah. We're born with sin. Everyone's born with sin. Yeah. Can we relieve the sin through Jesus? Yeah. So, if you're not perfect, that means you will sin. If I'm not perfect, I will sin. Yes. But obviously, you got to try your best to be like Jesus. Sure. So, but why would they do that? That's what I'm trying to understand. If I believe in Jesus, I'm just trying to understand from a Christian perspective. And I'll answer your question, by the way, about the Old Testament. But I'm saying if I'm a Christian right now and I believe it's a fact that Jesus died for people's sin in Christian in the Christian belief then oh he died for all my sins past and present and future right he didn't only die for the past sins but the future sins as well right yes so if he died for all the sins of mankind then why does it hurt if I fall I'm a weak human being if I sin so what he died for it I I could give you an atheist agment as well I can say I can say that if if anything bad happens why how's God how is God real if bad things happen I mean you can give atheist aments like this as well. No, no, but the atheist arguments are not going to work. Yeah, I can answer that from an Islam point of view. For example, I can give an answer for that. You say you can say like, oh, why do people have bad teeth if if dentists are real? No, no, but say the same thing. It's kind of you're saying in a way that we shouldn't ask rational questions, but we need to because so if if we live our life, for example, if you look at a Hindu for example, and they worship a cow and and they drink their pest or whatever, you're not going to do that, are you? I'm not sure. Listen, I I work for a few Hindus. I I do um I do buildings and stuff. I'm a I'm I'm a salesman. Sure. But I do I work with you. Well, I'm not sure what they believe. They just believe that all the gods are the are the right one or No, they believe in something called pantheism, which means that God is in everything and God is in the cows. So So cows are God in in a sense. Yeah. Cows. Cows. The cow, you know. Cow moon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The cow. Yeah. So they believe everything is God, right? One guy, he tried put it like um like the Christian like I assume Muslims believe in the Old Testament God. That's what I've always Yeah. So your question about the Old Testament, let me answer it. So we believe that we believe in Moses, we believe in Jesus, we believe in Abraham, we believe in That's why I was asking him. I was asking do you believe in the Old Testament? So I saw an interesting thing about um but also you believe in Adam. Yeah. No, Cain and all those I think. Have you heard what their names mean all the way down to Noah? Yeah. We don't say we believe in the Old Testament. That's what I'm trying to highlight to you. I'm saying we believe in the prophets of God. And you believe in certain parts of it though. We believe in the previous prophets. But we say that what was revealed to those previous prophets is not found today in its original form. So what you have today, for example, what you refer to as the Old Testament, the oldest you have is 2,000 years after Moses, written by unknown people. We don't know that this is actually what Moses did or what he said or what what any of these prophets did. So what I'm trying to highlight to you is we cannot rely on it 100% to be historically accurate. It can have correct information. It can have false information. For example, when it says that Moses said to his people here, Israel, our Lord God is one God. We see we don't have a problem with that. God's one, right? We say that's a true statement, but we cannot say we trust that what is written in what you call today the Old Testament to be historically reliable. We cannot say that. And how do you trust in the Quran? We know that the Quran is historically reliable because we know that the Quran is carbon dated to the time of the prophet. So we have manuscripts. How do you prove it? The same way you can you pontious pilot wrote about Jesus and wrote about the execution this guy. No, I'm telling you the difference right now. The difference is first we have two ways of me of preser preservation of the Quran, right? Two ways of preserving the Quran. The first way is the memorization of the Quran. We memorize the whole book from beginning to end. No other nation does that. And this is from the time of the prophet until today. Ramadan just passed. If you went to the mosque, you would recite the whole Quran in 30 nights from memory. No books, nothing. If you throw all the books in the sea, we can recreate it in a minute. There's millions of memorizes of the Quran. The same the same thing can be said for the Bible, the New Testament. Who memorizes the Bible? Of course. A lot of people. Millions. Give me one personions name. I I can't name me. But millions of people go. You can I can say I can say what? Okay. But what if what if everybody stopped memorizing the Quran and everybody started memorizing what's the one the Jews follow the Torah? If everyone if everyone memorized the Torah the Torah what the Torah says Jesus is burning in in in apparently they not the Torah. Yeah. But I know if everyone memorizes that and no one memorized the Bible, no memorized it. No, I think you're confusing things here. There's a difference between making an argument for what is false and true and making an argument for whether a historical document is reliable from the source or not. These are two separate arguments. So I you're conflating the two. I'm not saying Islam is true because the Quran is the same that it was the time of the prophet. I'm not making that argument. You said you've said people memorize the Quran from the Ramadan. You're saying memorize the Bible. Obviously millions of people remember me the Bible. That's not true by the way. Of course everybody remembers the Bible. The Bible is the most the it's the most popular book in the world. If you want to research it's the most popular book in the world. Number one. No. Number two. I'm not I'm not I'm not talking about popularity, my friend. It's not a popularity concept. Okay. But you can say that memorize this and not as many people memorize this. That's also not true. Nobody memorizes the Bible. Everyone memorized the Quran. Nobody memorized the Bible. I didn't say everyone. You can't say that. I I don't think you're arguing rationally. If you're arguing emotionally, I cannot talk to you. I'm not arguing emotionally. You've said Okay. So, tell me who memorizes the Bible. Give me an example. You've said everybody memorizes the Quran and nobody memorizes the Bible. Yes. Right now. That's like me saying if everybody memorizes the Talmud. You know what memorizing mean? I don't. Memorize means you can recite it word for word from beginning to end. Yeah. Of memory. Do you know how big the Bible is? Old New Testament. It's like,200 pages. Okay. So, you think that is you know the Quran is like third the the the size of the Bible. Sorry. And you know the Quran is third the size of the Bible. And do you know the Quran has a melodic rhythm that allows you to memorize it. Now you're trying to compare that with a book that is three times as big that talks about everything under the sun. My point is that the Bible is a million pages long truth. It's the truth. Sure. Uh if you if you try to listen rather than I'm listening. I'm listening. No, I don't think you are because I am listening. Okay. But you're not letting me speak. So are you listening? Person who's listening allows other person to speak, right? So okay, you made the claim. Oh, this is what I'm going to do right now. I'm not going to do anything. I'll say you made the claim. There are people who memorize the Bible. Produce your proof. Bring me even one person online. search, Google, find me one person that memorizes the Bible from beginning to end. This is a lie. This is a silly argument, though, cuz I can say, "So, I can tell someone who's memorized the Scientology book from beginning to end." That doesn't mean nothing. I can make a book tomorrow and he can memorize it. It doesn't mean nothing. It's not an argument. It's me pro proving that you're making a claim without evidence and it's a lie. I don't like I didn't say there are people who memorize something, they don't memorize it. You made the claim that there are people who memorize the Bible from beginning to end. So, provide your evidence. It's not about the argument. I'll memorize anything right now. I can remember. You want me to show you videos of people who memorize the Quran from beginning to end it? What does memorize mean though? Like anybody I can get hurt to memorize it. It doesn't mean Okay. Okay. So, let's memorizing doesn't mean anything about Let's first No, no, no. Let's first admit that you don't have people who memorize the Bible and then I can tell you what what what's the argument I'm making with the memorization of the Quran. Yeah. Carry on. Carry on. No, no. I I'll I'll talk when you are focusing with me cuz you're not focusing. Oh, it's No, carry on. Carry on. No, no. I said to you uh you said you've talked about memorizing. I'm saying this is no proof of anything though. I can memorize that. It is proof of preservation. Do you know what preservation is? I know what preservation means. What does it mean? Hello. I'm saying preservation. What does preservation mean? Preservation means basically keeping something alive. Basically keeping the word of whatever this is alive. Keeping a memory, keeping everybody's memory. No, preservation means keeping something intact in its original form. That's the definition of preservation. What I just said. No, you say keeping alive more or less. Sure. Sure. So, so no, no. I'm trying to be accurate with my words here. We both agree though. It's more or less. No, no. What we both tried to a correction for no reason. No, no. What we both agree on is that you're not understanding the point I'm making. I do understand what you made. You're saying, brother, you just said because you just said because more people memorize the apparently. Apparently, more people remember me. That's not true. I didn't say that, by the way. And first, my first question was, do you believe in the Old Testament? You didn't. You didn't fully answer. I answered you. I told you that. You said certain paths. What does that mean? I said to you, you see, you're not looking for an answer. You're looking Are you looking for an argument? Okay. Okay. So, if I speak, don't interrupt me. And then you'll get an answer for what you ask. I already asked you. You ask me about the Old Testament. I answered you. I told you the Old Testament is not historical reliable. Therefore, it can contain true and false information. Our criteria of what is true and false is based on that which agrees with the revelation of God, i.e. the Quran. That is our position. Now, the second thing to answer what you're saying because you're not understanding. I didn't say more people memorize the Quran. Therefore, the Quran is preserved. It's a weird eye. I didn't say that. This is what you're misunderstanding. What did you say? So I'm trying to say it now when you allow me to speak right. I said the Quran has been memorized from the time of the prophet until today which is a method of preservation. If something an example an example to to make it closer to your mind think of the alphabet for example alphabet memorized by millions of people passed down by generation by which translation is that you're talking no which means James Bible. Wait listen listen listen listen listen to understand sometimes I think I'm not speaking English you're the English speaking person here my first language. I understand. I think I understand what point you're trying to make. The point I'm making is that preser the millions of people in the Quran is a method of preserving it from the time of the prophet until today. It's the argument I'm making. So I'm making the point that you asked me how do you know the Quran is preserved. So I'm giving you the methods of how we know the Quran is preserved. The Bible is preserved as well. So it's a silly idea. It's not how how is it preserved? How is it? How is it? I'm telling you. How is it? The the oldest manuscript you have of the Bible, the New Testament is 400 years after Jesus. The Old Testament is 2,000 years after. written by how many years after correct can you let me finish my answer? Okay. So don't don't interrupt and have some respect because I have respect for you allowed to speak. Respect for you whether I'm talking to you right now. No, you interrupt me when I speak. That's not respect. I'm trying to respond to what you're saying, brother. Cuz you make a claim. You make a claim and then you move past it. It's true. I've got you speak and when you're done, I'll respond to you. What do you want to say? I just actually what I want to say. Okay. Say say it again. What do you want to say? Where was we? Where was he? You told So I'll speak, but you will interrupt me, right? Because you're done. Okay. But but stay at one stay at one point. Don't speak the way I want. Answer one point the next. No, I don't need to speak away. No, you answer one point, you go to the next. I don't tell you to. No, no. Your questions were about the Old Testament and the preservation was about the Old Testament. If Muslims believe the Old Testament, I love I know a lot of Muslims have a lot of Muslim friends. I'm saying if you guys believe the Old Testament and then you started talking about preservation and saying that I answered that question in the beginning. You said Muslims you said Muslims can pres can can recite the Quran and Christians. It seems like like you didn't like hearing that and it hurts your feelings and why you keep repeating it. Yes, Muslims do memorize. I'm just saying it's invalid. I mean, she she there can can recite crime and punishment. You know what I mean? It's And then what does that prove? It doesn't prove anything. Exactly. That's the point. But that's not the argument I made. So what argument did you make? I I'm not going to make it again because you're not listening. You're saying they can recite it. It's been preserved. Are you talking about the different translations? I'm not talking about translation. What are you talking about? Um again, okay, I'll repeat it now. Don't interrupt me. Listen, actually, because No, no, no. You change points. You change points. If you're listen, if you're listening, if you're listening, you'd have already got the answer because I gave it multiple times. Now, I'm going to say this very slowly, but try to actually understand. And as I said to you, English is supposed to be your first language, so you should understand what I'm saying. Don't talk that right now. No, no, no. Have respect. No, no, no. Okay, so you have respect and not interrupt. Okay, I know. Let's have respect equally. Talk that don't talk like that. No, no, I'm not talking smack. I'm making a point. You are talking smack. Don't I'll tell you the point I'm making is that you're supposed to understand what I'm saying because it's your own language and not keep asking the question. You just said people can recite people can recite the Quran because of about last Ramadan but people can't recite the Bible the same way you said that part of more or less that that's what you said simplified version but that's what you said no of course but if it's a simplified version it's a misrepresentation of what I said you need to actually understand the argument I'm making okay I'll make it for the last time you asked me about the old this is how the whole discussion went you asked me about the old testament I responded to you but it's not historically reliable it can have truth and falsehood and and we believe in certain parts I give an example or there's one god because that agrees with the revelation of God. So what agrees with the Quran i.e. the revelation of God we accept in the Old Testament. I already gave this answer answer three times now. So the second part of it is you I said to you the Bible is not historically reliable. So you said how do you know the Quran is historically reliable? That was your question. Then I said to you okay here is how we know there's two methods of I didn't even get to the second method but there's two methods of preservation of the Quran. preservation, historical preservation, a way of determining the book I have in my hand today is the same that was there at the time of the prophet which you do not have when it comes to the Bible and I was giving you the comparison there. So then I told you one method of preservation was the memorization of the Quran that people memorize it from the time of the prophet until today the tradition in Ramadan that we recite the whole Quran from beginning to end. That's what I was mentioning. So I said that life tradition you could go and see with your own eyes to see the demonstration of the memorization of the full book. Then you said oh but other people memorize the Bible. I say okay give me an example and that's a lie it's not true since you give me an example of one person online should be a person one person at least anywhere anywhere can you provide now can you provide now celebrities I'm saying any human being this is why this is why I talked about the translations I said are you talking about the translations are you talking about tissue sorry about that I'm just taking a tissue from I was talking about because are you saying that because there's different translations not about the not the translation I'm talking about the original I'm not talking about translations at all the same a slight translation. It means you can go translation. What? What? Why are you talking about translations? I'm not about a straw man. I didn't talk about I didn't talk about that. You can say it's a straw man. You want he's about preserving it. He's a strong man. I'm not talking about you got to make slight translations to translate it into different languages. Obviously, the German Bible is only slightly different from the English Bible. I'm not talking about translations, my friend. I don't know why why you're talking about that. from a you're talking you're talking about preserving it as if as if the as if the New Testament from that back when it was made is different from how it is now the exact same. How is it different? Where's your proof then? You don't have the original. Where how do you know this? I'm telling you. Do you know you preserve it? Do you want me to tell you now? I hope you can listen. You listen the first time and I and I appreciate it. No, no, you did. I said I was just saying you listen. You see why why are you so excited? Let me speak. Excited on camera. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Maybe this is how you are normally. It's okay cuz I'm speaking and you speak. No, no. I mean, when I speak, you speak in the same time. I know, but I feel like you're you're trying to make like gutas. You know what I mean? You're trying to make like No, no. It's not about that. It's about that I don't appreciate when I'm speaking and someone else isn't speaking the same. No, I I'm trying I'm trying to understand what you mean. You're talk you're talking about I'll answer you now. Okay. Sure. I'll tell you what I mean. The Bible I told you why it's not historic. I'll repeat now what I said. It's not preserved because the earliest manuscripts you have of it. You don't have any time from time anything from time Jesus. Nothing from the first century, nothing. Second century, you barely have something called P-52 this big. I know the names of the manuscripts. I'll tell you right now, p-52 is big as this court of John, which irrelevant, have no useful information. The earliest full manuscript of the Bible is called the Codex Saticus. It's nearly from the 4th century written by unknown people. The second, the one after is called the Cotus Vaticanas. The Old Testament, the earliest written you have is called the D scrolls. It's 2,000 years separate from Moses. So when I make an argument and I tell you that these things are not historically reliable, that's a fact because you can carbon date a manuscript and know how far back it dates. So it's a fact historically that you don't have the originals of the Bible. Therefore, you cannot make that claim. On the other hand, I said we have two ways which we know the Quran is preserved because that was your question. We have carbon dated manuscript from the first century of the Quran manuscript manuscript. We have the Birmingham paret you can go see with your own eyes right now in Birmingham museum which is from the life of the prophet himself. So on the other hand we can say okay this book is historically preserved. Why is that important? You can ask that question. Why is that important? Why does it matter if it's preserved? So we can know what God said and what God didn't say. If a book is changed then I don't know what is from God and what men has inserted in there their own opinions their own ideas what they changed in what God said. I cannot trust a book that I do not know is preserved from the source. So that's the argument I've been making from the beginning. I know. But what I'm what I'm saying is is that the Quran obviously has come years years years after after the New Testament. Never mind the Old Testament years after I believe it's confessed. I'm believe I can't believe a revelation apparently what's been made to someone else. I respond to that. But I'm saying what my point is the whole point the whole reason the whole reason the whole reason I came up here I was just wondering if if Muslims believed in the Old Testament. I think and you haven't really fully answered that. You said you said you believed in certain parts of it but you don't believe. No no I said I said since it's changed we cannot trust what it says. So you don't trust none of it. You don't tr you don't believe in Moses. No it's not none of it. I told you the criteria was what agrees with the Quran. The Quran mentions Adam and Eve. It mentions Moses. It mentions Noah. So we believe in these parts because they agree with the revelation is is what you believe. Everything that is revealed in the Quran that would correlate in the Old Testament we believe in that. Anything that doesn't correlate or it's not against or with we can be skeptical about. I think you believe everything that was that that was um correlated into the Quran is what you believed. Yes. But not so the so half the Old Testament is so whatever contradicts we don't believe. So half the Old Testament in there. Noah's in there. Elijah's in there. The prophets of God. Yeah. Prophets of God are mentioned in the Quran. But it's not the same stories. Yeah. But it's not there are differences. Yes. But there are differences in the stories of Moses and differences of Adam and all of that. Things which which we believe are changed. The Quran is coming to correct them. So yes, there was a need for the Quran to mention the stories again. So you can first for example you have prophets of God sleeping with their daughters in the Old Testament. You have prophets of God who are cheating on their wives and killing the person in adultery. You have worshiping other than God. In the Quran you don't have that. Allah is purifying. You you do have a lot of a lot of suspect things in the Quran also. You know I'm not trying this is not I'm not trying to take a low blow here. Okay. You let me explain to you what I'm saying. It's a bit like when people make the argument of Rebecca of Rebecca saying that she's 13. You can say the same thing about I'm not making the argument by the way. No, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about cheating on the wives and whatnot. No. No. It's not about the wives. The argument I'm making is this is that prophets of God are not going to do any of these things. We believe in the same prophets and Allah in the Quran purifies them from these acts. So the argument I'm making is not how bad the actor or not. We're saying God the prophets didn't do any of these things. We're saying they're pure of these allegations. That's what I'm telling you in the book has changed. We don't believe these parts that attribute these things to prophets because we know prophets of God will not do that. You wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. So a prophet of God wouldn't do that. You agreed to disagree. Well, it kind openminded. Well, but we'll just end it here.