25 Year CEO & Fighter Pilot Reveals ONLY Path To Survive AI & Monetary Reset

I was facing bankruptcy. I had gotten involved in a business that went sideways 08. You know, we got crushed in an my first real major investment and I got a $4.5 million judgment against me overnight. But everybody was panicking and the next thing you [music] know I lost my security clearance which I needed to fly. I was still active duty and I was in the in the deepest darkest hole you can imagine. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything but it made me realize how subject I was to counterparty risk. So, these are all accelerants into what I think is going to happen, not 10 years from now. I'm here to tell you, I'm working with a company that's going to be immediately disruptive within the next six months. And you either adapt to that, unfortunately, or you get kind of left behind. And I'm really trying to think through how do we take care of the people who are left behind. So, look, the power struggles are going to be with energy. Energy is life and hash [music] power is going to be how hopefully instead of kinetic wars where millions are killed or it's the end of humanity. We pivot into this kind of energy battle. War is a feature of a broken system. The fiat Ponzi scheme just create more print more money to solve paper over problems. The physical world is colliding with our 50-year kind of hyper financialized paper world. And you're seeing that in manipulated oil prices and potentially manipulated Bitcoin price, the price of silver, price of gold. But that paper derivatives complex can only have so much influence on a truly decentralized [music] and scarce asset that is Bitcoin. That's the whole point of what Satoshi and the cipher punks came up with. We are outside of your system. You maybe could have killed us early, but in a sly roundabout [music] way, we survived. And now we're bigger than you. So go after yourself. Kevin Kelly, call sign puncher, aka puncher as people know you. Uh, appreciate you being on here today. An absolute pleasure. We're going to talk a little bit, get a prop, Robert Kiasaki style. Make sure he's got a prop pattern interrupt for the people. We'll talk a little >> Jason Lowry software, but >> is the man. >> Yeah, it's it feels like that's playing out right right now, Pontra. like that that is you know the cyber security or cyber strategy Trump thesis kind of just slapped a different cover on there of Jason's book a lot of things going on right now um and it just feels like to me I it feels like three things can be true >> that you know we were just talking about the strategy and stretch debate and what's going on there but it does feel like to me and I would love you to just you know kind of give your thoughts on on the last couple years because it feels like we've lost the the the memes we've lost the the invention. In a lot of ways, we lost like the a lot of creativity in the Bitcoin space because a lot of the oxygen in the room has been sucked up by Wall Street. You know, like it, love it, hate it. You know, could be still be good for Bitcoin, like if you hold Bitcoin, sell custody, you still going to benefit from strategy, all these things are could be true, but it just it feels like we've we've lost some momentum. So, how do you when you zoom out at the space where where do you kind of see things right now? >> Yeah. Well, you know, Bitcoin is a future. It's a current but a future technology, right? and and trying to project yourself forward in time and space to kind of predict the future is a difficult task, right? It's why there's so much disagreement on where we're headed. But there's tells along the way that make me believe that we're on the right path. I rely pretty heavily on Jeff Booth. Jeff has become a a good friend and he's always successful. I mean, what a what a sweetheart of a guy. I think you've had him on. always if I text him with a question, he gets right, you know, gets right back and he's just a just a sweetheart of a guy. He he believes that this is kind of the natural path. Look, Bitcoin is money for your enemies. And I'm not saying Wall Street is our enemy, but Jeff is of the opinion that these two systems are completely incompatible with each other. So when you talk about things that are, you know, Wall Streetized or commoditized in Wall Street, it has to happen. We have to get through this. But at the end of that phase, whatever it is, again, the systems are incompatible. But for a time, I think they might, you know, you might have a foot in both camps, so to speak, as Wall Street a figures out what this asset really is and then figures out what Wall Street does with that asset. So, yeah, it has sucked a lot of the oxygen out of the room. I think it's also added a lot of confusion to people. There's a narrative out there that say some of these ETFs and MSTR are kind of on-ramps for people to start their Bitcoin journey. I'm not so sure about that. I think that if you if your introduction is a fiat kind of derivative of Bitcoin, you by definition don't understand Bitcoin. And most people stop there just like most people stop most people don't put in the work to understand Bitcoin. Somebody just sent me their reading kind of bookshelf of all the Bitcoin books that they have and they've read one software being one of them and you know that's some pretty heavy stuff and most people just don't want to do the work. I I can't tell you how many people have said to me give me the elevator pitch on Bitcoin. Well, you know I don't know that you can squeeze every you know what I know about Bitcoin and how the depth of Bitcoin could fit on the head of a pin and it's a tremendous amount of work and effort and understanding. So, you can't do the work for somebody else. I guess you can lead the, you know, the horse to the water, but you can't make them drink. And a lot of people don't want to drink. Bitcoin's down. To us, that's like, wow, this is awesome. I I'm going to buy, you know, I made a big Bitcoin purchase today. To everybody else, almost regretting that I got them into this asset because they look at it as if it's just a stock or a bond or a piece of real estate and they don't understand it. And those are the ones that are getting shaken out. So, this is just a natural course of events, but I think over time, uh, we're going to end up on the right side of this thing. I think right now, as a matter of fact, the the the physical world is colliding with our 50-year kind of hyper financialized paper world. And you're seeing that in manipulated oil prices and potentially manipulated Bitcoin price, the price of silver, price of gold. But that paper derivatives complex can only have so much influence on a truly decentralized and scarce asset that is Bitcoin. Um I know listening to uh Mark Moss just did a great interview with Peter Schiff. If you understand Bitcoin, you look at Peter and you say he doesn't understand. He doesn't get it. As smart as Peter is >> and again Peter I've read all of his books from a macro standpoint in the traditional system. He understands that very well. he either hasn't taken the time or put in the effort or he's got some cognitive dissonance about what what what Bitcoin is and you just know he doesn't get it. So, I don't know that that's an answer to your question. I think we're in this kind of weird place where Wall Street's figuring it out. Institutional uh institutions are figuring it out and we're we've already been there. We already understand it. But this too shall pass. And uh there's no other asset that I'd rather have my this majority of my net worth than in Bitcoin. But it does get painful particularly when we see these deep draw downs. But that's a feature, not a bug. >> It does. It definitely creates the uh the committed um and really creates those bases, you know, and that's a part too punch. I mean, you zoom out and I was doing this the other day. I think from the low six years ago when March when it had that flash crash from like you know obviously it went from like 10 to six or 10 to 5 in March of 2020 and then it went down >> yeah wicked down to like 3500 or something like that. We're still at like 6570. I think we're up like 18 or 20x from the low six years ago right now. So it just puts into perspective of what's actually happening when you zoom out. >> And thinking about it in terms of fiat is a mistake in and of itself, right? >> Yeah. somebody who doesn't understand Bitcoin. One Bitcoin still equals one Bitcoin. That doesn't mean anything to them, right? They are still kind of that is the path of a monetary reset which I think we're in the middle of now where you have >> kind of Bitcoin is a store of value. Then I I think very quickly we're going to go to a medium of exchange. we could talk about with AI and AI agents using Bitcoin to transact, but I I also like I had a conversation today of one of the franchises that I'm involved with and I called up the CEO and I said, "Listen, we should accept Bitcoin. We should accept it because it's a target audience that has wealth." And the only way you can shake Bitcoin out of somebody's hand, we're a real hodler, is if they think they're advancing the system by using as a medium of exchange. It's a simple API integration into our POS system. We put a little sticker. we put Bitcoin here and just like stake and shake has seen their sales go up tremendously. So I think things like that will make make us go from a store value to a medium of exchange and then ultimately somewhere down the road we're going to denominate things um in Bitcoin and that'll be like the last phase of that monetary change where it's a where it's a unit of account. Do you and again now we were just talking about cognitive dissonance so we're mind reading here a little bit but it feels like we you know when you look at like Putin or some of these other you know energy even even the Middle East I mean there waking up just publicly but in the background you you would just think these guys would be remissed if they weren't you know like just denominating their their lives in in Bitcoin you know it is the measuring stick it's it's the thing to actually see what what's val what's valuable in the world and where things are actually where the puck's actually going. I mean, would it like would it shock you if we woke up, you know, six months from now or a year from now and Putin, you know, or Xi or like these guys were like, "Oh, yeah, we've been doing this." Or, you know, denominating our energy in this and it just it seems insane that we're not we haven't been. I know it's only been 17 years, but it just it's obvious, you know, once you pull back the curtain. >> Yeah. Once you understand it and I think, look, a lot of sovereigns are starting to understand it. to start out with smaller countries like El Salvador. But look, there's no doubt that, you know, the hash rate in China is super high. I think they understand where it look, the world needs a decentralized, secure, final settlement, permissionless um um what's the medium of exchange or or neutral reserve currency. >> Obviously, the US dollar is not fitting that bill for myriad reasons. Number one, you know, we can print it out of thin air. Number two, we've weaponized it. In Ukraine primarily, but in other places, we weaponized the dollar. So, if you're a nation state, you got to be thinking about how well, look, the bricks is a perfect example. You've got to be thinking about how do we get how do we extract oursel from this system, and there is only one. It's Bitcoin. So, um, and Bitcoin and self- custody requires zero permission. So, if you're a nation state like Russia who's got more nuclear weapons than we do and we could weaponize and basically essentially steal their uh dollar reserves, everybody in the world has got to be thinking, "Wow, if they could do that to Russia, they could do that to us. How do we extract oursel from the system?" And Bitcoin is the obvious answer. And I always say when the you know what hits the fan, the only plans that get implemented are the ones that are already on the table. Bitcoin's on the table. And in the early years when I first got in, Bitcoin was a highly speculative, right? It but it was that sly roundabout way where maybe the maybe the people who could have derailed or hijacked Bitcoin just didn't give it the time of day and it had 10 years to grow and when they started realizing what it was was so big and so powerful that they couldn't compromise it. And you see from the Epstein files like he got it. He was trying to compromise Bitcoin as well and figure out who's in charge, who do we go after? And then realized it's really not. We really can't hijack this thing. So we're frustrated now because we kind of think we see the endgame. Nobody else really does. And things aren't happening as fast as we would like. You know, I'm I'm the age I'm a little younger than Lawrence Leard and he's like, "Man, I just want this to happen." But it's going to happen in its own time and markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay patient I would say but um it's going to happen and with the AI and you know look ask any AI what are you going to transact in well maybe initially stable coins but stable coins can be shut down we saw that in Venezuela right there is a centralized authority that can it's not permissionless and that centralization is a is a real risk AI understands that. So if you really get deep down go into any AI, I think the Bitcoin policy institute did that study, but I had already asked all the AIs, you know, what are you going to transact in? Unless they're bullshitting me, they all eventually came to the conclusion that it's going to be Bitcoin. And that's an adoption case and a medium of exchange case and essentially a unit of account case in the long term that's going to bring Bitcoin along in this journey with other things added into it like adoption by um just regular retail that I'm trying to work out now with one of my franchiseors. It's coming. Yeah, absolutely. And before we get into the war, I want your, you know, some of your thoughts on what's going on there, some of the motives behind it and also the uh we talked about stretched a little bit, but also like how many more big prints? We just mentioned Larry Lear, but how how long can they keep getting away with this and what are what are these prints going to be looking like? But before we do that, we should probably I would love for you to give just a minute or two on your background because again, people that are might not be familiar with you. You are a fighter pilot, been in multiple branches of the service. um and how long you've been in Bitcoin and how long you've been in business because I think these things are very important to edify. >> Yeah. Well, I look I don't know about that and I rely very heavily on the the just I'm I'm honored to be able to host uh Bitcoin today on spaces and we're on every day for a couple hours from like 11:30 to 1:30 Eastern time, but sometimes we'll go five hours if the conversation is really, you know, if the popcorn is popping. But you know, guys like Dark Side and Marilyn Huddle, Robert Infra, uh Thomas, these guys are really big brain, really smart guys who understand the bigger macro picture. They all have their kind of point of view. Dark being, you know, ran an arm desk for 30 years on Wall Street. These guys get it. So, a lot of the ideas I get percolate from having that, you know, having that experience with them. My background is I was a fighter pilot. I was a pilot and naval aviator in the Navy for about 13 years and then I switched to supply a different aircraft. Um, so I went from a thousand feet or less of runway which was nice to 10,000 feet of runway and I flew F-16s in the Air Force but I was always like kind of weird about studying macroeconomics. Like I would read macroeconomics books from from the I went to college and I learned a lot of Keynesianism and I could regurgitate on this but it never made sense to me. So when I started reading, you know, Hayek and Mises and all the great thinkers in the Austrian movement and I got into gold and silver like so many early, you know, prior to Bitcoin being a thing, a hard money store of value that I could withstand what I saw was just money printing once you understand how the system is mechanized. When Bitcoin came around, I heard about it and like most people in the beginning 2010, a really smart guy told me about it and I could have bought it at I don't even want to tell you. It was so crazy, but it was very kind of hard. The UIUX on Bitcoin in the early days was was nuts. But around 2013, I made my first purchase and then I started I read the white paper. Now, the white paper is above my kind of understanding level and a lot of it. I wish there was AI back then I could have run it through. But I did get it kind of and I and it it blew me away. I said, "Wow, this thing can really make it through um what could be potentially hijacks and and get to be what it is. It's superior to gold and and to a lesser extent silver uh to more of an extent than silver. So um I just started reading and buying and acquiring. you know, I was making I don't know, not a ton of money as an officer in the military, but every little bit I had, I would buy and buy and buy. And then when you start going to and back then there wasn't a whole lot of resources. There wasn't the sailors in the booths and guys like yourself who you could listen to. There were just a few uh who you could listen to, go on chat rooms and listen to, you know, guys like uh Max Kaiser and guys battle it out. So the more I learned, just like most, the more conviction I had, and you find that the more people understand what this is, and it takes a lot of work, the more convicted you are that this is the direction we're heading in. And then ultimately, I became um just more and more convinced and started transferring more and more of my net worth into Bitcoin. Um I got out of the military in 2013. I was facing bankruptcy. I had gotten involved in a business that went sideways 08. You know, we got crushed and my first real major investment and I got a $4.5 million judgment against me overnight. A building that I was building went from being appraised at $9 million completed to four and a half and I got a phone call from our lender saying, "You're in default. What do you mean? You still owe me a million dollars. I can finish the business and I can get the business going and I can pay you back." But everybody was panicking and the next thing you know I lost my security clearance which I needed to fly. I was still active duty and I had a $4.5 million judgement against me which is why I lost my security clearance because this judgment popped up and I was I had $1,000 in the bank and I was getting married and you know I was planning on having children. I mean I was in the in the deepest darkest hole you can imagine. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything but it made me realize how subject I was to counterparty risk. you >> know, somebody just decided that my building was worth half and I was in default. >> That doesn't happen with Bitcoin. I don't have any counterparty risk and I don't have to require anybody's permission to move forward. So, that's what I've been doing. And I got involved in business. I was going to go fly for the airlines. I had an interview with the airlines on September 15th of 2001. So, you can imagine the airlines weren't hiring. And I had already told the military I was getting out. I had to deny a a job that was going to go work at the White House. Actually, I was in the final running for that. And no, everything happens for a reason. Staring into that black hole, I'm like, I got to figure this out. So, I started a business and then I got involved in franchising and had some success with some great partners, but I was generating that revenue now that I was pouring into Bitcoin. Everybody thought I was nuts and um that's where I am now. Now, I'm just trying to, you know, help teach people about Bitcoin to the extent that you can, you know, lead them to that water. And, uh, it's up to them to drink it, though. But I think the crisis like we're facing today makes that time to insight for people a lot quicker. I remember I was CEO of a of a startup company that was basically a digital gam uh um gaming company, excuse me. And our programmers at the time, a couple of them were in Ukraine and the only way we could get them money as they were trying to extricate themselves out of Ukraine was to send them Bitcoin. And people figured it out really quick. I think that's what you're seeing now in the Middle East as well. People are like, you know, how do you get your gold out of the Middle East? How do you how do you get your wealth out of Middle East? I can jump on an airplane now anywhere in the world with just my brain and some words, seed phrases in my head and go anywhere and nobody can stop me. There is no other asset like that in all of human history and that's where the real value is. >> What what led you initially when you were when you were flying still what led you to hey I'm going to study money. I'm going to study some monetary history you know Hayek Freeman and such as that. >> Well on an aircraft carrier with 6,000 dudes for six months to eight months at a time. You just find ways to you're always at work and you've got a lot of free time. >> So I don't know. I just um I just maybe it was um trying to think of who it was. It'll come to me in a second, but I heard >> not everyone was doing that, right? Punch. I mean, like not everyone not everyone was doing that, you know, like people are screwing around doing other things. Like what >> what made you work out so many times a day on the air, you know, you go to the gym so many times a day, you got to fill it with something. >> So anyway, I I started reading and then that was the transition into gold and silver and then later with Bitcoin. Look, one of the things about being a pilot or being in the military and and operating any piece of equipment is they make sure that you have to understand everything about you have to be able to build that aircraft prior to flying it. You take so the work that you have to put in in understanding before you even go out and use it as a tool is kind of par for the course. So understanding Bitcoin at a deep level was no big deal to me. I just assume that it's what you got to do with everything to fully understand it. So that that's what brought that journey, that kind of discipline that the military instills in you and then understanding business as I started getting into business, you know, and then the macro environment. I mean, you got to know a lot about a lot of stuff or at least a little about a lot of stuff like history, monetary policy, what is money? It's why Robert Breedloves podcast is so awesome. Like what is money? If you ask the average person that, they'll look at you like, what do you mean? It's what I use to buy things. They have no real understanding of why we need money. What is good money? What is bad money? What's the current system? So, you got to know a lot about money. You got to know a lot about history and why things failed. You got to know a lot about the how the system is mechanized. And then you got to know a lot about kind of global macro to really get a deep understanding of why what is the problem. And that great video by Joe Bryan, what is the problem? I find now that if I tell people I send that video to people and once you understand there's a problem then you understand the reason for the fix to that problem. Most people don't understand there's a problem. They live their lives. They take their kids to baseball. They just they're not interested. But when crisis comes and you're forced to be interested like in Ukraine, like potentially in the Middle East now, that's an accelerant for you needing to understand. And I think that's where we're headed now as things kind of unwind and we go from a global monetary hegemony with the US dollar and the euro dollar system into what I think is new now a new multipolar world where things are going to be quite different and um the world is in need of that neutral reserve currency and Bitcoin is the only answer. Gold doesn't work anymore. Gold as good as it was failed as a final settlement. If you think about what you got to do to finally settle in gold, it's trans it's transnational. It's global and it decentralized and secure. It cannot be shut down and it's not controlled by any single government. That's the beauty of Bitcoin. All right, real talk for a second. We all know health insurance is basically a fiat system of healthcare. It's the biggest debauchery there is. 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Because if Bitcoin is forever, your plan should be too. Learn more and sign up with code 4QPBWC at meanwhile.bm. That's meanwhile.bm BM code4QPBWC or just sign up. They'll link in the description below. >> Yeah. And it's funny you mentioned Peter Schiff because I and I don't know. It was just a clip that I saw. I'm sure you you probably saw it with him saying, "Well, tokenized gold's going to be the thing for Bitcoin." It was like, Peter, that's called the dollar. Like, what are what are we doing? You know, it's just like, >> well, it's an emission of the flaws of of gold, [laughter] right? Gold doesn't work. Gold is the reason we have fiat currency because the token has to be centralized. >> It's not transportable and all the other properties of sound money that gold just does not have. We so I think it was earlier to listen to something I think it was Gary Cardone saying you know unrest because I've been in the camp of you know I don't know call it accelerationism or you know Jeff Booth even you can't fix reality from the current system and you know whatever kind of gets us off that Titanic onto the life raft the the best way. I don't think anyone knows the best way necessarily, but we're going through this phase transition and I just keep coming back. I go I come back to 2012 uh punch like I I I was very political in 2000s as a kid growing up fighting professors, arguing about the constitution. Then I realized one day no one even has read the constitution like and I stopped you know 2909 to 2012 during the crash while I'm graduating from Michigan State and you're just like sitting there like what is happening? Like no one has any basis of reality. So I kind of checked out like we need we need max pain after the 2012 election. And I was like, "Yeah, no, no, no. We need pain." Like, "We need a lot of pain." And so coming to this full circle here with Gary saying this, is that the thing that really kind of brings people to their knees? If it feels like we're not really even close to that in a lot of ways, but is that what you see coming? >> Well, you see a contagion starting to spread now. First, it was with private credit, now private equity, now I think UBS closed a real estate fund. I don't think people truly understand the amount of counterparty risk they have in any single investment. If you buy a stock, you know, you don't really own that stock. That's the whole premise of the great taking. Another great video or book to to um read or watch. I don't think people truly understand like if I if you owe me $1,000, uh Brandon, but you lent, you know, you you're you're you're banking on somebody else to pay you the thousand so you can pay me. I have no idea that I have exposed counterparty risk to this third party until you call me and say, "I can't pay you. And I have no idea that my loan to you was contingent upon six other people that had to make good before you could pay me." That's an essentially what the system is. And you're starting to see that crack now. You're starting to see the reality of the paper derivative world crashing with the reality of the physical world. And I know Bitcoin is not physical, but it kind of is. It's it's a real commodity or money that albeit digital which is one of the great things about it. It's a real thing and you can't print more of it and there is no counterparty risk unlike all these other asset classes and I just don't think people understand counterparty risk and contagion and those things I think are accelerating now as the world comes to grip with you know 30% of the world's oil supply which and all the derivatives of that oil coming out from one little narrow pass in the Persian Gulf that despite the size of our navy and despite our ability to project power we don't control it asymmetric warfare has shut that down. And I think we really stepped in at this time. I don't know if it's on purpose or not. You have a lot of people talking about this 5D chess that I'm suspect of. Whether or not Donald Trump is doing this on purpose or not, I don't tend to think that's the case. I think he's trying to extricate himself as best he could. But the damage is almost done. And every day that goes by that we don't have the free flow of one of the most important energy, and energy is life. The free flow of that commodity around the world, this thing's going to get worse and worse. And I think as it does, the time to insight about what Bitcoin really is is going to start dawning on people and institutions. >> This is this is so wild because the last couple months I've gone down the rabbit holes of of trying to break out of the Bitcoin echo chamber and this on numerous pods over the last few months and trying to listen to people all over the Professor Jeffrey Sachs and and Mir Shimers, the Judge Npalitanos, the Candace Owens, like Tucker Carlson's, the Young Turks. I mean, I've been on the left end of the spectrum, the right, I mean, and and everywhere in between, and and no one seemingly has any idea what's going on at all. It's just a lot of mind reading, a lot of cognitive dissonance. Is it is it possible that there's 10 different factors? It it seems like out of all this, Europe's really going to stand to lose. It kind of shot themselves in the foot for a long time. They're going to stand to lose. Could it be that the US is going to win through this? Uh that China might win, Russia might win. Like, there's gonna be a bunch of winners and maybe one or two losers. is that it kind of seems like it's playing out that way potentially, but um I'm curious your thoughts. >> Yeah, I don't think there's any way that Europe Europe has made so many mistakes over the past two decades that I think Europe's in for a lot of pain. I don't think we get from here to the next system without a tremendous amount of pain. And look, history, that's another reason you got to understand history, right? These types of transitions are painful and there's really no way to escape that pain. I don't know who ends up on top. I look, I love my country. Obviously, I served my country in multiple combat tours for 25 years. >> I think my CV on that is is pretty, you know, beyond reproach. But I'm not such a big fan of my government. They are two different things. And I think there's no thing more patriotic than calling out your government when when they're not acting, you know, in a way that you think is beneficial to the average American. I don't see, nor has anybody even tried to make the case why us going into Iran is beneficial to the average guy in say Appalachia who's lost all his manufacturing jobs, who's probably got some terrible fentanyl crisis ravaging his neighborhood. Like, you can't make the case that that's good for the average American. And I thought that was what the government ostensively was all about. Representing us in conjunction with our constitutional values as articulated in the constitution and how that applies to the average citizen. I don't see it. But be that as it may, governments are going to do what they're going to do. We have a tremendous counterparty risk with the government we live under. And we're going to have to deal with the consequences of some bad mistakes that our government's making. But I think Bitcoin kind of removes us from that and allows us to kind of look from the outside. And it's amazing the veil that's kind of pulled away when you start to understand Bitcoin and you start to realize that a lot of the things that were axiomatic in your life that you thought were true tropes, you know, diversification is the way, you know, whatever the trope is, you realize that a lot of it's [ __ ] And I find myself being less partisan now and kind of you have a love affair for the truth. I just want to know the truth. And extracting the truth from what we're seeing in Iran now is almost impossible. And I I I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what's actually going on in Israel. Is it being decimated? Are our bases being decimated or are they not? >> Yep. >> All I can say about this is um I think that the dye has been cast on the contagion and the counterparty risk that's now going to spread very rapidly through the system. I hope I'm wrong, but this seems to be what I've seen since the '08 crisis as a real problem. And in '08, we didn't deal with it. We just papered over it. And the idea that we could paper over it again, they're going to try. But as they do that, it just makes the system more fragile and weaker in a world where nobody wants to buy our treasuries anymore. And that is the oil that greased this this kind of system for the last 50 years. And all these fiat systems come to an end at some point. History tells you that. But a lot of people in the United States and worldwide have this recency bias where they don't that can't happen here. And I know from international travel that you know and look Venezuela for example was a paradise in South America and very quickly they went down the wrong road and people were dumpster diving to survive in that country. So things can happen and we're not immune to those things. And like you said, I want to get as many people on the life raft as possible because I do think that this is the transition from the lily pad that's kind of crumbling to the next lily pad that's, you know, more secure and just a better better system for the average human being. And that's all I really care about. >> Yeah. And yeah, there's so many good good points you just made. I want to talk about big prince here in a second just because of confidence in society. But before we get to that, the thing that I'm really struggling with cuz I feel like I'm 50/50. I can make arguments for both sides or, you know, theoretically or maybe 10 different sides. I keep saying, you know, it's it seems like there's many more than just, you know, two sides to this, but like how do we get the truth now? Cuz like you have like a Ron Paul who's like we should be, you know, for decades, right? We need to be voting for these wars and you know, which which I agree with constitutionally. I agree. It seems again like Trump is just, you know, hey, I'm going to middlefinger everyone. International law is fake, which I'm not. I don't want the the globalist stuff. So he's middle fingering basically everyone in the world saying your globalist stuff we saw the the W what happened there letting it come in they come in like team America f all you guys I get it you got to take care of your own country and at the same time the constitution like how do you how do you even fight wars now where if we're going to go vote uh for you know this war and like present the evidence of like well this is why Joe Kent comes out because he's like you know nos there are conspiracy theories of what's actually happening but when we're not presented the evidence that right there is the admission that maybe you don't have the information that you need, but at the same time, how do you present the information and evidence to go to war when you're now with with instantaneous media? The other side's going to know what you're doing. It it just it's like very economic and they're not militaristic, if that makes sense. Right. At the end of the day, this is something, you know, the soft war where war is becoming obsoleted almost where there's like this diminishing returns of like you get to this crescendo of nuclear war or or throwing robots at each other. Well, we can throw endless robots at each other, but what are we do? What are we accomplishing at the end of the day? It it feels like we're getting there, Puncher. >> Well, war is a feature of a broken system. The fiat Ponzi scheme, which is what it is, you know, you just create more, print more money to solve paper over problems. What we're seeing is downstream the politics, everything, all the pathologies we see in our society now from bad food to bad medicine to bad whatever is downstream from bad money. And most people don't think about money. So they don't even consider the fact that the money is bad. And bad money leads to all these pathologies for myriad reasons. You pick the pathology and I'll show you how it all ties back to bad unound money. So look, when all else fails, they take you to war, right? I forget the gentleman. I want to give proper attribution to him who says it. >> Gerald Cente says it all the time. I know. >> Yeah. Gerald Cente says it all the time, right? >> And and that is the system, right? When when the debt Ponzi scene can't be papered over anymore, it's almost like the broken window theory. Now we're going to we're going to fund both sides of the war like World War I and uh we're going to start over. And the person the average person pays the price on that. the powers that be don't they they think that they can reset and be in charge all over again and they just start the ponzi a new well I don't think that's going to be the case next time now this could go on for a little while longer but again when you're in a position of authority like the president of the United States and I don't think Donald Trump truly understands Bitcoin I really don't I mean when he stood up in Nashville and said you know have fun playing with your Bitcoin you know that he just he's whatever he doesn't have the need to know he's very successful in the old system. Uh but I did I did have hope that the people around him understand. You know, JD Vance understands and ostensibly um Howard Leutnik understands and to a lesser extent um our Treasury Secretary. But when you're in that system and you're tasked with kind of protecting the old system, that's kind of what you're going to do. >> So I don't know how this all shakes out. Um but I don't think s it's not a sustainable model. I think we can all agree on that. And those pathologies are just ripping through. And this time, the average person is really up against it. The average American, the average guy in the middle class is seeing his kind of his purchasing power and his quality of life going down. He's not quite sure why. But I think when I talk to people, when I talk to my friends who live like row house guys, union guys, and they're working, you know, they used to be able to support their family on one job, send their kids to school, live a pretty good life, go out to dinner, take a vacation down the Jersey Shore for a week every year, and they can no longer do that. They sense something's wrong. That's an easier orange pill than somebody who is very successful on Wall Street, knows how the system works, is very close to the money printer with the Cantalon effect. It's amazing what's this saying that, you know, it's it's hard for a man to understand the problem when his job depends on him not understanding the problem. And I I I've got friends who are very successful Wall Street guys and I have friends who are just simply rowhouse hardworking guys. They get it. They get Bitcoin. Now it's a little harder for them to get it because they're still fiat-minded and when we dump down to 68,000 like what's going on? I bought it at 75. You told me I said listen this is a long term. And then I start talking about low time preference and all that kind of stuff. But they get it and they're open to it and they're open to it out of necessity. My other friends who have a shore house, who have a couple houses, who have done very well, who own assets, they've got a the cognitive dissonance that's very hard to break through. And I think that when the pain hits them and as AI is coming and potentially going to wipe out 20% of white collar jobs, that pain's going to come to them quicker than I think they know and maybe that's the catalyst for them starting to really think about what is sound money, what is Bitcoin, and why do I need it in my as my store of value. >> Do you or what I should say, what are your thoughts on just the big print in general? We we mentioned Larry's name earlier, obviously his book for anyone who hasn't checked out the big print. Um it looks like obviously the the the big print could come in like a tsunami kind of like we saw in 2020 u or maybe even 08 a little bit but also it you know could be a whimper not a bang like how do you see like how many more times can this charade be played out before the the average guy is just squeezed to the point where I I don't know like what is it a loss in of the confidence in the currency is it just more loss of institutional confidence how do you see this playing out going forward like how many more times can this can this go on and they paper over things and is it just a function of the guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy and gal just not uh the inflation's not bad enough and they can still just get along somehow like how far can they kick this can >> look I was shocked I was like Larry in '08 I'm like here it is this is it this is a reset and I nobody knew that they would print trillions dollars and you know QE12 operation twist QE not QE all that nonsense that's the tool they have and when all your the only tool you have is a hammer all your problems look like nails, right? They're going to try it again. They have to. But as they do that, the strata of middle class, which was the bedrock of the United States, which was the bedrock of the Euro dollar system worldwide, they're up against it now. So more printing means either more inflation for them or just a lower standard of life. We're getting to the point where every time they print now, and it's going to happen more frequently and in greater amounts to paper it over, their life gets worse. And those are the kind of things that start to break society. And you start to see it. I mean, just look on Twitter how people are just frustrated or road rage or guys are losing their jobs or their pensions are at risk because all this crappy stuff that was marked um marked to par in a lot of these private uh private equity or private credit deals, you know, they all get dumped into pensions. When those pensions stop being able to pay out and they have to mark things to market, that distress is going to lead to real-term political consequences. And [snorts] I think the ability to do it maybe one more time. They're going to try, but I think that's going to be the last time you're going to see Bitcoin, you know, in dollar terms start to fly. And you're going to start to have people come to the realization because of duress, because of stress, because of um in in a in a in a broader way, things that happened in the Middle East and things that happened in Ukraine, by necessity, they're going to have to figure this out and that's going to lead to broader adoption. Unfortunately, I think it was Brent Johnson the other day all kind of talking the end of the American Republic, but the beginning of the American Empire. Uh, is that how you see things like that? Maybe the government losing over the long run here, but the people winning going forward. Is that you you do you subscribe to that? >> I mean, I hope so. I we're definitely shifting to a multipolar world. >> Mhm. >> You need a neutral reserve currency for these different polarities. I would say that we're probably headed toward the US dominating Canada, maybe Greenland, Central America, Mexico, Cuba. You see it. You see, look, the reason we didn't go into Venezuela out of the kindness of our heart. They have the energy that we need. They have the thick crude. We had the ostensible motive to go in there to remove a dictator, but really we want access to their oil. Our whole our whole refining system is is mechanized to process Venezuelan oil. So, I think we're going to shift to that multipolar world with the United States dominating say the Western Hemisphere, South America as well. And um again, we can either we can either trade with China or not trade with China, but I think we're going to need to we're going to need to figure out a way that these multi-olar worlds instead of a uniolar world conduct business and Bitcoin and you layer on top of that AI is going to be the system that that functions practically in that world. Do you so you just mentioned AI and we we mentioned this earlier too and I did want to ask you how is AI reshaping your business or businesses or or things that you're seeing just out out practically in in the real world. >> So I have a couple franchises that I'm integrating AI to make essentially everybody's job easier. All the kind of menial tasks that my employees do in one concept that I'm really integrating in. We're taking that out and we're like, you know, phone calls to leads for customers are now AI and and initially it sounded really kind of not scripted, but it took it a while to answer your question, but now it's very good. I mean, you can almost you can tell it's AI, but not really. It's really good and it's it's tracking scheduling. I should have taken care of that. It's Marty Bent calling me. um about by the way about integrating Bitcoin into one of my other franchises. So I'll call him back. So anyway, um where was I? I just it's it's practical. I'm also working on something with a couple of uh Bitcoiners that's going to be extremely disruptive in the legal field. I'm not at liberty to say, but it's it's going to make some of the menial tasks in um in law just easier and faster and more accurate. It's not it's not not lost on me that that's going to disintermediate a lot of jobs kind of a um what do you call it not a lawyer well a lawyer but also a um a parallegal a lot of the jobs they do can be done better by AI that's going to be extremely disruptive but first mover advantage in that is going to is going to make you a superior kind of law firm if you can do those things so I think it's coming faster than people believe and then you add to that that you know these microtransactions cannot be settled in gold with AI agents doing a lot of the things that they're going to do on your behalf. It's going to take like an energy token, even a minuscule energy token to do these API integrations and transactions on your behalf. And obviously, we talked about how that is necessarily going to be Bitcoin decentralized, secure, can't be shut down, can't be permissionless. So, these are all accelerants into what I think is going to happen not 10 years from now. I think a lot of people, you know, Jeff always talks about one of the greatest flaws and he uses the folding of the piece of paper analogy 50 times. Our ability to think logarithmically is one of the failings of the human mind. So people are like, well maybe in 10 years my job will be disintermediate. I'm here to tell you I'm working with a company that's going to be immediately disruptive within the next six months. And that's going to take time to work through some of the inertia in the system, but it's coming. And you either adapt to that unfortunately or you get kind of left behind. And I'm really trying to think through how do we take care of the people who are left behind because inevitably that's going to happen. What are people going to do? Most people tie the value in their life to their work and they're proud of their work, but there's now an intelligence that can do it better and for free essentially. So again, that's just one more kind of phase that as humanity, we need to get through and figure out how to take care of as many people as possible in that transition. I don't have the answers. A lot of it's I got to be honest with you, very blackpilling, >> but I try to listen to the people who have a more optimistic spin on it because I do think that Bitcoiners are going to play a large role. It's it's not by accident that Bitcoiners, who all by the way have kind of the same personality type, are very heavy into AI and they also are very heavy into understanding Bitcoin. I think we're going to be largely responsible for that transition. Uh we're going to be the ones who hold the value and how do we how do we make that better for all of humanity is kind of going to be upon us. I mean, if not me, then who who's going to step up? And I do think the Bitcoin community who mostly are really thoughtful about how their actions affect average people. They're not about more for me, the pie's only so big and I want to get most of it. They're more of a thought like how do I secure myself, my family, the people I care about, and then how do I help broader society? So over time, I think Bitcoiners are going to play a bigger bigger role in that kind of transition. And I'm happy that it's our personality type that's going to do it. >> Yeah. You're you're replacing the current ruling uh classionaire uh personality type, which is I I believe mathematically or the the studies say they're psychopath psychopathic by nature. It's a much it's a level set upgrade uh puncher. That's I like that. >> Look at the looting. Look at the looting of the treasury that's going on now in like these uh poly markets where guys are making trades and make a billion dollars in five minutes on inside information and you know no one's going to be held account for it. That is the endgame. That is just another road sign that's telling you where we're headed, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Bust out. The looting, the the looting of the treasury. It's happening right in front of our eyes. And most people don't see it. Most people just shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, whatever. I can do." >> But it's Yeah. It's gotten to a magnitude now where it's distressing. You know, nothing's going to happen. You know, no one's going to be held accountable. The manipulation of markets is off the charts. The official government datas are ridiculous. You know, the unemployment rate is a 4% when one in three Americans isn't working of working age. You're telling me it's 4%. You're telling me CPI is 2% or 3% or whatever it is this month. And then they revise it down months later to say, "Ah, you know what? We're off by a million." It it's just it's just ludicrous. But it's nice to be able to sit back and say, "Okay, I think I know where this is headed and I think I'm in a good position now. I just want to tell everybody else what I think I know and hopefully they can gro it and and and come on board for the big win. >> It does feel the a rapidly diverging world where it's just the meme of CBDC's and slavery or Bitcoin and freedom. You know, it just like which which way are you going to choose anan and that's it does feel and people are scared. I mean, like you said, I was I've had a couple conversations recently that like you said, they're kind of blackpilling because you kind of feel like you feel helpless and you're like, well, I mean, I've told you about Bitcoin, like, you know, told you study Bitcoin. We've talked about it, you ask questions, and it's like, well, and people are scared like what's going to happen to my job, like this and that. What, you know, it's like, well, Bitcoin would help you for for many reasons, whether it's just capturing the the deflation and redistributing it back to you, the productivity gains, or the incentives of society. There's so many reasons that Bitcoin helps. I think the goal I think for many people was hope we wish that Bitcoin would have been further along at this point and people would be seeing it much faster and I think that's the blackpilling part where you're just like the answers are there and we have these problems which we all diagnosed like everyone's you know not everyone but like a lot of us obviously the Bitcoiners have diagnosed this and we're not further along that's what's blackpilling to me and that's what's you you just you know you hope and pray and you try to talk to more people as much as you can but man it's just it's print and then printing through the job losses again AI what you were just talking about and the numbers being all screwy. I mean, how much are they going to print puncher going forward? They print it was what, like five or six trillion, eight trillion, whatever it was during co those couple years. It's going to be what, double, triple that, you know, in the next one. >> Trillion dollars here, a trillion dollars there pretty soon. Start that up. >> I I mean, >> it's almost comical at this point. >> Literally, >> if it wasn't so serious, it would be comical. But a lot of people don't want to ad admit or don't want to deal with um you know these uncomfortable truths and they are complex. It's very complex. It's a lot for somebody to digest. A lot of people even on Bitcoin today when we start getting really down the rabbit hole. >> And by the way there's a there's a segment of Bitcoin who talks about Bitcoin Twitter and they kind of scoff at it. I think it's amazing. Mhm. >> But a lot of people on our, you know, we get a couple thousand people in the room every time we we do a session. They don't get it, but they're there. They're learning. They're curious. They're going to learn. They're going to get it. We try to put it in very basic terms. Every once in a while, we'll try to go back to real real basic Bitcoin because, you know, to hold our attention, we're going deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole, and some people like, I don't even know what you're talking about. So we try to always just back up and then just start from, you know, Terrence who was on your show recently. >> Yep. >> Is fantastic about that. And I always like to try to give real world, you know, practical things like in my business, here's how it's affecting my business, whether it's AI or Bitcoin or whatever, so that people can have these practical kind of connect the dots and see how it works for them. But in the end, it's a personal thing. You have to take personal agency and do the work. And then once you realize or just look, one of the reasons you asked earlier, why did I get into Bitcoin? I said to myself, I'm look, I'm an average IQ guy. I'm not that smart. But when's the last time all the smartest people were fascinated by this one thing? You know, you've got the greatest minds in the world working on this one thing and it turned out to be [ __ ] It's not that's not how things go. So really what attracted me to people were way smarter than me who were making great arguments were all fascinated by Bitcoin. And I said, "Well, they're smarter than me. Maybe I should hang around the rim a little bit and see if this is the real thing. And by the way, maybe just buy a couple thousand dollars worth when it was 30 bucks to just take a take a shot. It's a little harder now when Bitcoin's, you know, at 70,000 or whatever we are today. People think they missed it. And that's another psychological thing that keeps people out. They feel like they missed it, which leads to a whole lot whole another set of pathologies, which is all these shitcoins that are permeating that have no use case, no value at all. But people feel, well, I'll get into this and then I'll buy my Bitcoin because this hasn't ripped yet. Whether it's XRP or TE or ETH or name one of your >> Trumpcoin. >> That's just more noise that prevents the average person from seeing clearly what you and I know, which is there's only one. You don't need a second internet and you don't need a second decentralized and secure monetary system that is got network effect and is growing in many, many different ways. And while you don't see it all the time, it's it's hard to see sometimes, particularly now that it's being financialized on Wall Street. These are the steps that we have to go through in our kind of growth cycle. Yes, it's frustrating. Yes, it's not happening. But the destination is is pretty clear. And if it doesn't happen in my lifetime, then I'll be like Moses. You know, I may not get there with you, but I know where we're headed. We're going to the promised land. There's going to be pain in between, but I'm I'm selfishly want to be around to be part of, you know, what I think is going to be a much better world based on sound. >> There's one thing more important than Bitcoin. The time you have and the people and relationships you build. And in a world full of noise, the real signal is meeting with other Bitcoiners IRL. Finding Bitcoin only events, connecting face to face, and supporting the circular economy through Bitcoin friendly merchants around the world. That's exactly what Club Orange is built for. Build your circle. Support Bitcoin only companies. The only place in the world you can find all that in one spot is the Club Orange app on iOS or Android. Go to clubor.org. What used to be the OrangeP app or scan the code here. Everything you were learning in this episode is completely moot and does not matter if you hold Bitcoin and are still leaving it on an exchange or sharing keys and your KYC information with a third party. This is your wakeup call now. You are only self- sovereign if you alone hold the keys to your wealth. 100% self-custody sounds daunting at first. Believe me, I lost two years of massive gains over a decade ago because I was worried about taking the few minutes it took to understand self custody. And that's exactly why you need to talk to my friends Tony Azbeck and his team at the Bitcoin way. We just interviewed Tony recently has over 80,000 views, an overwhelming response. People love his story and the simplicity he shares of of how easy it is to custody and take ownership of the greatest money we've ever seen. They will train you to do it right the first time. Head on over to the bitcoinway.com/brandon to schedule a free 30inut consultation today. Their fivestar rated service is exactly what you need. Quit sitting on your hands like I did and get started today. Again, that's the bitcoinway.com/brd don. Amen to that. What are your thoughts on uh the strategic bitcoin reserve? I I don't remember stable coin talk at all during the the campaign a year and a half ago, two years ago. Like I don't think it was brought up one time yet. As soon as we got, you know, Trump got into office, he's there's been all stablecoin talk and like almost no Bitcoin talk outside like the first week of like maybe an executive order or two of the Bitcoin reserve. But what do you think the reasoning for that is? I I'll give you mine really quick. M mine is just this the simple fact that they need the treasuries out there. There not a lot of people buying them as you know is not nearly as much. So what better way to stable coins to pump that up and get treasuries out there and then if you don't talk about Bitcoin kind of keep that hush hush. Great. then you can accumulate more cheap Bitcoin. But it also doesn't kind of spook markets. That's how I see it. Like how do you see all the stable coin talk? We're not talking about Bitcoin really. It's opposite from the campaign. When you zoom out, what do you see? >> Well, you got to separate the [ __ ] Like it was it just political? Was it just to get some votes and get the Bitcoiners behind you and maybe stroke you a check, >> right? >> Or is it real? Do they really understand what Jason Lowry is talking about? >> Just a quick story about Jason. And I went to Fred um Krueger's first uh it was called Bitcoin Alpha >> and I see a guy standing in the corner and I immediately recognized him. It's Jason >> and he was just kind of listening in to one of the roundts. It was a Toshi roundt um format >> and I was supposed to speak on a second topic in the afternoon. I went right up to him. I said, "Hey man, I'm giving my hour to you." >> And he reluctantly agreed. You know, he's active duty military so he's kind of have to watch his what he's saying. Yeah. He was already under investigation for the book crazily in his old command. Um the kind of investigation where they start one and then they never really get it going. So you're just in limbo. Your career is kind of on hold. >> And you got a guy who's a pretty big brain and a national asset and now he's kind of sidelined from his old command. So anyway, a lot of people poo pooed what Jason was seeing. They don't see it. But essentially we've reached the limits of kinetic power, >> right? which is a feature of the old system, right? Nuclear weapons, which I think you're going to see proliferate among the GCC after we extract oursel from this mess that we got ourselves into. >> Um, war with nuclear weapons is the end of humanity. So, when I say that's when we've reached the kind of the limits of kinetic power, that is the ultimate end. Like the idea that Ukraine ever beat Russia is insane. Russia has nuclear power. So Jason's thesis for lack of a better term and a very rudimentary explanation is the battles are going to be in cyerspace in the future and to participate in that battle in cyerspace among nation states you're going to need energy and that energy is Bitcoin. So Jason's thesis is the United States government in order to participate on our behalf in that kind of global hash war fight in the future power tokens would be well advised to have some Bitcoin in the treasury. Now I I hope I'm not telling tales but I I knew that Jason was stuck and I got him in touch with a friend of mine who is the commander of the Pacific Fleet. Uh, he's a very smart guy and I said, "Look, I think you should talk to Jason, but first I want you to talk to some other people in Bitcoin to get you up to speed on Bitcoin." This guy has a photographic memory. I mean, and again, he's a buddy of mine. >> He he by name requested Jason to then come out of his his old command and into a new command. >> And now Jason is personally advising him. That's a good thing. So there are people inside the DoD who now understand it with a lot of sway. So I don't know the intricacies of what Jason's working on, but I think it's a good thing for a nation state to have some Bitcoin >> uh because of all the things that Jason puts forth in the uh in his software thesis, which by the way was a book that he wrote was kind of his MIT thesis. It's a tough read. I think he's done a better job explaining it when he when he's on um >> podcast like uh Robert Breedlove has a nice series with him than others. >> He's kind of been refrained from doing that now. But that's a better explanation than trying to power through his book, I think. >> So, look, the power struggles are going to be with energy. energy is life and hash power is going to be how hopefully instead of kinetic wars where millions are killed or it's the end of humanity, we pivot into this kind of energy battle that's um that doesn't involve the loss of human life and we can sort things out there amongst nation states. >> Yeah, could not agree more. What are your I would love a minute or two just on your thoughts around the clarity act in general. Again, this kind of goes back to the be earlier when we talked about we're kind of, you know, off the rails. I just did an episode, a full episode with Nathan and from BTC mentor and and Ben Parent BTC sessions. The whole episode was about guys, you can live off outside the system right now. All the tools are there in Bitcoin. Everything you need, privacy, everything you can imagine, it's right there. And I feel like Bitcoin is just whistling by the graveyard. And this is why I was earlier like I've just been in this frustration mode of like it is there. And it just seems like everyone's grasping at like, hey, what's Wall Street going to do for me next? Hey, what's Trump going to do for me next? It's like freedom is taken. It's not granted. Like I love your thoughts just in the clarity act. All this starting to lose my mind. Puncher. So Marty sniffed it out early, right? He found out that, you know, allegedly the the Coinbase folks were behind representing one thing outwardly, but behind the scenes were advocating against Bitcoin and the dimminimous tax and all that kind of stuff. Look, I see stable coins as a band-aid. The biggest problem we have now is nobody's buying our treasuries. That is the mechanism that greased the entire system. And now the quality of the buyer of our treasuries are levered hedge funds out of the Cayman's and a few you know businesses or nation states here and there. But the qual it's no longer China. It's no longer these big nation states. They are moving away from the dollar. This stable coin thing which ostensibly is backed one to one with treasuries and the whole battle of over who gets the interest on that treasury. Look, I don't think Bitcoin cares. Nothing stops this train. But the Clarity Act, it turns out today, it seems like the final version of the version that's going to go to a vote is exactly what Marty said. Marty got wind that they were advocating against Bitcoin in that behind-the-scenes negotiations, doing the bidding of big banks. And look, Brian Armstrong makes his money on a lot of shitcoins and Coinbases. You know, he's got a fiduciary responsibility there. I don't like the fact that he was dishonest about it. And I plan on moving all of my business off of Coinbase onto another platform, but you know, it is what it is. I mean, these perverse incentives in the old fiat system have such a grasp over people when they get in positions of authority that you shouldn't you shouldn't you should believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. And Marty sniffed it out and called it out and it sounds like he was spot on. So, we'll see. But it doesn't matter to me. I don't I don't plan on playing in their game long term. So, whatever they decide, Bitcoin doesn't need regulation. That's the whole point, right? That's the whole point of what Satoshi and the Cipher Punks came up with. We are outside of your system. You maybe could have killed us early, but in a sly roundabout way, we survived and now we're bigger than you. So, go after yourself. >> I love it. What do What do you think the the endgame is of Bitcoin? meaning going back to Jeff Booth again something I ask basically at the end of every conversation I have with people where Jeff believes it's going to account for the entire system all 900 trillion and it's in today's dollars I know sometimes people are like well it's going to be more than that like well in today's dollars just say it you know when the train stops whether it's a thousand years from now or a year from now or 10 whenever that is what do you think Bitcoin will account for at the end of the day >> look I do think that um with AI and then the advent of robotics And Jeff talks about this all the time. The marginal cost of production falls to zero, right? Gives the example of the the calculator, right? It's just a line of code. When you think about everything like education, I mean, think about the education industrial complex. The idea that a kid would go to school and end up 200 to $300,000 in debt for a job that doesn't exist. I went down to uh a college around me and I was asked to speak as a business person to the kids in the freshman and sophomore uh class and a kid raised his hand. He said, "What do you think I should be doing right now?" And I looked at the professor. I said, "Well, I think you should get up out of class. I don't think you should invent yourself studying to be an accountant and I think you should learn how to vibe code and figure out a need in in society that you can fix with your skills as an AI uh you know developer prompt >> and there's massive >> yeah but the kids are like oh my parents are paying and they'd be really disappointed I go yeah but you know Steve Jobs you just described every success story ever where they go this isn't working for me anymore the job I'm studying for isn't going to be here in a couple years. So, I need to pivot. And it's hard when you're an 18-year-old and you don't know any better. But look, I have some kids that I'm working with now who figure that out and and are on my team now and are going to have equity in a company that we're doing with the thing I just mentioned. What do I think it looks like? I think that in the future, and again, timing here is your guess is as good as mine, but I do believe that in a digital age, it's going to happen way faster than people think. You know, that kind of geometric logarithm of thinking that we don't have. It's going to come quicker. It's going to be more painful. But at the end of it, on the other side of it, we're going to with our energy tokens, which are Bitcoin, we are going to be able to manifest a great world at very low expense. Now, there going to be two people at the end of that. There's going to be the players in that system who own Bitcoin who are going to be able to manifest something because it does require energy, an energy token with an AI agent. But the work is going to be done basically for free. There's going to be people who are going to live a meaningful life in that world, who are going to be the creators of that new world because they have the energy and energy is life. And then there's going to be the people who are just recipients of that kind of philanthropy. I think everybody's life's going to get better under a sound money world where the cost of production is is essentially zero. But would you rather be a person who's manifesting that and and expressing yourself and great things for your community and your and your and your your kind of your inner circle or do you want to be the person who's just kind of getting that that large S as charity? And I think meaning in life is to be able to manifest things into reality and create things. Most of the businesses I create, it's not for it's not because I'm driven by acquiring more wealth, right? I've got a loaf under both arms at this point and I've been blessed. But the real the real kind of value in my life is knowing that the people who work for me, that's how they pay their tuition. That's how they make their mortgage payment. That's how they make their car payment. There's some businesses that I have that break even right now. And the reason I don't shut them down is because that weighs very heavily upon me. And as long as I'm not losing a ton of money and they're making money for the time being, we'll try to figure out how to get profitable. But I don't want to pull the plug on any of that. It would be much better for you if you were participating in that um future society where you were a creator and not just a recipient because I think that's where people are going to find value. I don't know if that makes sense, but ultimately this is down the road. You want to be a player. You want to have the energy tokens to manifest things [clears throat] with AI and robotics. And to the extent we're going to need money, and I think we'll always need some form of transactional value, even with AI, I know which camp I want to be in. Now, if we have abundant energy, say we have nuclear fusion where energy is just free as well, then maybe we get to the point, look, they've discovered that the energy contained in a single atom is could create a nuclear weapon, right? So there is abundant energy and I think the technology will eventually get us to the point where energy is free and abundant in that reality or in that future potential reality maybe everything is free and maybe you don't need any energy but that's a long way off I think. So maybe we get there where it's just everything's manifest and it's it's abundant everything and everybody lives a great life and you know, who knows? But um in the transition, which is probably going to account for the rest of my lifetime, you're going to need to have the energy to do the thing you want to do. And I think it's smart to get yourself a little bit of Bitcoin so that you're able to participate as a maker and not just a taker. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. What's what's the thing that you are most excited about or or even most scared about? And it could be Bitcoin, could be what's going on in the world. We've kind of talked about some of the things that kind of bounce back and forth a little bit. So, I think I have a sense, but is there something in Bitcoin itself or just going on whether it's AI that you're like, hey, I'm really excited about this or hey, this is really concerning to me in this area over here. >> So, my concern is not for me. I'm I'm well past my nine lives, whether it was flying on aircraft carrier, whatever. Like, it's it's a minor miracle that I'm sitting here talking to you. But I do worry about my kids. I have young kids, you know, being in the military. I didn't have kids until I was later in life in my 40s. And I'm just really concerned about the life that they're going to inherit. I want to raise good kids, not necessarily happy kids, not necessarily successful kids. I want to raise good kids. And I don't want them spoiled. I want them to understand the value of work and the and the value of, you know, just being a good person because I think that that's what a stable society is built upon. Um, a lot of people say, well, people are basically good. I'm like, eh, people are basically flawed. I'm not saying people are basically bad. I'm saying people are basically flawed. It's easier to cheat than not to cheat. It's easier to, you know, you know, >> whatever, be unfaithful to your wife given the train. Like, >> yep. >> Being good takes work. and I want to instill that in my kids. But I do worry about what the world looks like because there's so much uncertainty particularly now about the world they're being inherited in in just a few years. So that's the thing that really concerns me and to the extent that I can help direct or be a part of a better world. I want to be a part of that. The greatest thing and the greatest comfort I have really is being amongst Bitcoiners. I mean we're a very small percentage of the population. We all kind of think alike, all kind of agree on a lot of things and um having that community because everybody else thinks we're nuts, right? Everybody else thinks we're crazy. I mean, all my f all my friends think I'm crazy. Every time somebody asks me a question at dinner when we're out with friends, my wife inevitably kicks me under the table. Like somebody will ask a question about, "Hey, you're into crypto." And my wife looks like, "Don't start." I'm thinking I'm like, "I'm sorry. I can't talk about." But, you know, >> man, >> being around Bitcoiners who understand is just a great blessing and and most of them are very intelligent and they've done a lot and they've seen a lot and being able to extract their knowledge is just a a total blessing. So, I find comfort in that while being, you know, concerned about AI in the future. But I think what do they say? They say if you think in the past, you're depressed. If you or if you think in the past, you're dep you're anxious. >> Yes. >> I think most Bitcoiners are future focused. I don't ever ruminate about the past and decisions I made that were bad. Matter of fact, I really relish the bad decisions I made because I try not to make them again. I always say there's no lesson in the second kick of a mule, right? And if I can learn mule kicks from other people, that's a great thing. So, I think we're very optimistic. I think we're future oriented. And that leads to some anxiety in us because we don't quite know what the future is until it gets here. But I think that's the key to real happiness is to be focused and try to zigg, you know, skate to where the puck's going to be to quote Wayne Gretzky, right? We're trying to figure out where the puck's going to be. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong, but directionally I think we're correct. And that's that's like a kind of a cool thing to be a part of. >> Amazing. Amazing stuff. Anything else that we did not touch that you want to hit? Uh, Puncher, anything? Any topics? Anything? Try We kind of ran the gamut here, I feel like, with I tried to give you a wide array as I know you can speak on a lot of different topics, but um, anything that we missed that you think is pertinent to talk about. >> Well, I'm always amazed that anybody wants to hear anything I have to say. [laughter] like, you know, I do have >> I do have original thoughts, but a lot of them come from people way smarter than me, yourself included. So, uh I'm just really appreciative of these podcasts. I'm really appreciative that I can now send a link to somebody who I'm trying to orange pill and, you know, I can kind of identify where they're missing things and then go, "Hey, listen to Brandon's interview with so- and so. I think this might help you with that." It's a great resource and I'm just super happy to be a part of it to the extent that I can be. Um, I got nothing but gratitude, but I'm just uh I'm just a happy guy. And it's funny because like Dark Side and a couple others, they're like, "You guys are doomers." I'm like, "I'm not a doomer. I'm I'm generally the fun guy. I like I'm I'm fun to be around. I >> I tell my kids to be Yeah, you're fun. You're lots of fun." Yeah. >> Well, being negative is more offensive than having bad breath. I mean, you ever think about something is really negative, man. It's like, "Oh, you're sucking my life force out of me." >> So, I try not to be a doomer, but I try to be realistic in my assessments. I'm wrong more than half the time. So, always test what me and others are telling you, but I think directionally we have this thing pretty nailed down. I think we can see things for whatever reason that other people can't. And to the extent that we can share that and proliferate kind of the Bitcoin message and the Bitcoin ethos to people and the Bitcoin safety net, I'm just tremendously grateful to be a part of that and and I I just thank you for having me on. >> Absolutely. Absolutely, brother. Thank you for coming on. Where can people find you? >> Well, like I said, we're on spaces. By the way, the reason I go under a moniker puncher is because I got kicked off of Twitter three times for saying stuff like, "Hey, I think CO's [ __ ] I don't think you should take the vax and this doesn't make sense to me. Like you're out of here. So I'm uh and I see a lot of that coming back now too. I see particularly with the opiqueness of what's coming out of the Middle East. >> I'm fearful that the one kind of open >> platform we have which is for us is on Twitter every day. Uh we can say whatever we want. We're not really fearful of things getting shut down or throttled or whatever. But to the extent that that might go away and I think in the future it might, I really encourage people to get on Noster. I really encourage people to run their own node because that strengthens the system and it makes it the network effect. And I also think that Bitcoin is a medium of exchange. It's incumbent upon us to go and try to make that a reality. You know, try to like in my case try to talk to the CEO and say, "I think we should accept Bitcoin. They're the greatest most loyal group of people and it's an untapped resource. Like, let's do that." And unfortunately, you know, a CEO goes, "Well, explain to me Bitcoin." I'm like, "You can't do that. All I can tell you is I think our sales are going to go up. Is that good enough?" So yeah, to the extent we can help proliferate the Bitcoin message, man, I'm happy to be here and do it. >> We are all grateful for you that you're on our team. Uh that's for sure. And you're right. Bitcoin is a human system at the end of the day. It uh if it could run for a thousand years on its own, but if humans aren't using it, then it doesn't really matter or or AI for that matter. So we need to we need to want it. So >> Kevin Kelly, thank you so much, sir. >> Thanks, buddy. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Beth. >> We'll see you soon. >> See you, bud. If you like that episode, then you're going to love the playlist we put together for you with our most recent podcast with the top Bitcoiners, sound money, liberty [music] advocates in the world. Go check those out here. We'll see you inside. You're going to love them.