Expert Negotiator: How to Stay in Control in Hard Conversations

People are living limited lives because they cannot communicate and articulate themselves. We go in with inappropriate expectations. The fact that the person is emotional, they're taking it the wrong way, they're getting defensive. These are predictable things. So, it's not a matter of whether or not it's happening, it's whether or not you have the skills to deal with it when it does. >> Wow. The difference between staying stuck and making progress often depends on how you handle conflict. Founder of the American Negotiation Institute Christian shows how the right words at the right time can shift the outcome of any conversation. >> It's not about right versus wrong. It's about me versus you. It's about domination and subordination. And nobody wants to end the conversation by being dominated. We're taking the path of most resistance in these conversations. >> So, am I hearing that there is a physiological hack to difficult conversations? >> Yes. Oh, see now I'm leaning forward. I'm getting hyped now. >> Yes. Let's go. >> What do you love most about your work? >> Cuz there's so many aspects to what you do. >> Yeah. >> What's the part that no matter how you're feeling, >> whether it be mental exhaustion or maybe some emotional junk going on or you're just physically sick? >> Yeah. >> If if we put you in it, we would see your heartbeat faster. I I realize for me the the I'm happiest when I'm connected with other people. When you look at the studies, when you when you see Harvard did this longevity study where they talked about the the core to life is really the people who had the best relationships, they lived the longest, they were the happiest. And so when you think about the skill of negotiation, but just communication in general, you recognize that it's really the hidden key to life because the the foundation of all of our relationships is our ability to communicate. And I can recognize that people are living limited lives because they cannot communicate and articulate themselves the right way in a meaningful way. They can't get to the next level because they don't realize that you don't get what you deserve out of life. A lot of times you get what you negotiate. We have to advocate for ourselves in order to get to the next level. But when it comes to any type of relationship, there's going to be some kind of friction that we're going to have to navigate. And people often think about it through the lens of right and wrong. But really, if you can break down some of those barriers and truly connect with somebody, then you realize it's not about I'm right, you're wrong, or vice versa. We see things differently. So, it's not my way versus your way. It's figuring out how we can find our way. >> Okay, perfect segue. You didn't even know. I mean, you're teeing me up. >> I want to talk about conflict in the workplace. And it's it's it's worth mentioning that we professionals spend more time in work or at work than we do in any other area of our life other than maybe sleep. And I don't know if that's true, right? We we got some bad sleep patterns in America. Separate separate conversation. So, couple pieces of data here I want to hit you with. 25% of workers experienced at least one form of workplace conflict in the past 12 months. Yet over one-third of people who experienced workplace conflict said it was not resolved at all. >> Yeah. >> What do you think is happening in a workplace or in the workplace at large where conflict is obviously happening cuz people are there >> but it's never being resolved. What's happening? >> I think first of all one of the reasons why it's never resolved is because there's never an attempt to resolve it. Because a lot of times there is a conflict that happens and then people respond with disengagement and so they don't actually lean in and have the conversation. That's the first thing. The next thing is that we don't have the skills to resolve the conflict. So if we think about it through the lens of any other skills, we are communicating and resolving conflict or trying to at least every single day. But how many times have we had the opportunity to actually learn how to do that in a meaningful way? This is one of my favorite things to ask during keynotes. Just raise your hand if you've ever taken a negotiation class and maybe 10% or would raise their hand. >> I can't raise my hand right now. >> Right. And then for those 10%, okay, how many of you have taken more than one all of them go down? And so when people say I really struggle in conflict, I say well I I'm not typically very good at things that I haven't practiced either. >> It's a skill. >> Well, this is what I love about you and your approach because when I first came across you, I was like, "Okay, this is fun because I'm going to be learning alongside the audience today." cuz it at first blush if I saw conflict mediation as a topic or just handling conflict in the workplace, my gosh, what a huge topic. >> Yeah. >> I wouldn't necessarily think I need to take a negotiation class or I need to listen towami's podcast or I need to interview him. I wouldn't put the two together. Is that common? >> Oh yeah, for sure. >> Okay. Now, why does negotiation then the skill or maybe the art form >> Mhm. >> why does it help us with conflict? >> Because it's a problem solving tool. That's the key. And I think one of the things that we have to recognize is that there's going to be a really tight connection between conflict resolution and negotiation. Because if you just think about negotiation as the skill set, the things that you do and say, there's going to be a limiter there. Because if you can try to persuade somebody, but if they're not in the right mental state, then they are really unpersuadable. >> So, one of the things I recognize people struggle with is creating the conditions for persuasion. So, they might utilize an approach that on paper could or should work, but the person is so triggered that it cannot work. So, you need the conflict resolution skills to be able to lower the emotional temperature of the room. And then once level heads have prevailed, now we can have a higher level dialogue. But the problem is that we have to earn the right to get to that point. And usually we don't start at the right spot. >> No, we don't. Where do we tend to start? >> I'm right. You're wrong. >> Right. Gee, I wonder why nothing ever gets >> Exactly. And so people will say, "Hey, the other person's being defensive in the conversation." I said, "Man, it seems like you're probably talking to a human." >> Right. >> Right. I mean, we we go in with inappropriate expectations. We should anticipate this. the fact that the person is emotional, they're taking it the wrong way, they're getting defensive. These are predictable things and they will happen in the majority of the conversations. So, it's not a matter of whether or not it's happening, it's whether or not you have the skills to deal with it when it does. >> So, really, we should be, and I say we collectively feels like negotiation should be something that's taught in high school. >> Yes. Oh, see, now I'm leaning forward. I'm getting hyped now. Okay. >> Because that's the thing we are teaching people. I I remember I remember when I was in college, I took calculus 2. Um I took it because I didn't realize I didn't have to, unfortunately. And so I remember they were teaching us this really complex equation and I'm sitting here struggling, just suffering. And I just asked the TA, I said, "Why why are we learning this? Why would I ever need this?" And she stopped for a second and she she was like stumped. She said, "Hm, well, hypothetically, if you ever needed to find the volume of something shaped like a potato, then you would need this." And I said, "When would I need that?" >> Ever need that. >> Right? And so, we're we're learning all of these ir irrelevant things. We don't learn personal finance. We don't learn communication. We don't learn conflict resolution. And we're wondering why we go out into the real world and struggle with this. This should be foundational. >> Yeah. I mean, it and it really is. uh that opens my eyes to okay back in the workplace. So if somebody has some basic negotiation skills, they've taken a course from you or you know whatever they've done >> and they begin to understand >> uh the process of it because it's >> I've interviewed other negotiators like FBI, big shots and all that and it really feels like >> not just a process, it feels like a process and an art form. >> It is. It is. Okay. And where I'm going with that is you can't just learn it. You're going to have to practice it. I'm guessing it's a little bit like riding a bike. A little clunky. Got to you got to skin your knees early on. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have to. If you're not taking any L's in this process, that just means you're not trying. >> That's part of the process. We And any negotiation expert that is telling the truth will let them let you know that they have had failures and they currently do. There's no way to be perfect at this. So that's why I think it's so important to think about this through the lens of practice, especially if you're a leader in the workplace. If you're advancing in your career, then hypothetically, the conversations that you have today are not going to be as consequential as the conversations you have tomorrow and next year. So take this as practice for the next conversation. So for me, I I've developed this mentality where the harder the conversation is, the more I appreciate the conversation because this is just a hard rep. When you think about it through the lens of of fitness, we have progressive overload. Go into the gym, you break down the muscle fibers, you push a little bit harder, and then the next day you can go a little bit harder, right? You get a little bit stronger every day. So, when I have a really tough conversation, I say, "This is fantastic. This is going really poorly." >> Right. Right. >> And most conversations aren't going to be this hard, but when the next one is, I'll be more prepared because I want you to start thinking about this as your own coach. So you can win every single time with this mentality. So step number one, your goal is to put yourself in the best position for success. Do the best you can. Use the best possible skills you can and understand that even if you approach this perfectly, it's not guaranteed to succeed. Then after every conversation, just ask yourself this question. What did I do well? Try to do more of that. What did I do poorly? Try not to make the same mistake twice. And that's it. And then you guarantee progress. I don't want the audience to miss what you just said because that's so simple that you can just kind of like okay yeah yeah yeah but what what makes that simple advice you just gave so profound is the actual process of doing it most people won't sit and reflect >> right >> you find that to be true >> oh 100% >> and I'm calling myself I want to be very careful like some of my best dayswami are the days where at the end of the day I actually sit and reflect >> over the Hey, and yet we don't do it very often. >> Yeah. >> You know, we're in our phones, Netflix, whatever, you know, and we just don't sit there and reflect. And and I don't think we do it coming out of really hard conversations. I think we try to medicate on some level or distract. Right. >> Absolutely. And the thing is too, if we if we reflect, it's a lot simpler and more reassuring to just blame the other side. This didn't go well because they are unhinged. this didn't go well because they didn't handle themselves the right way. And the thing is it is a a patently >> um disempowering stance. >> Yes. >> Because if that's the case, if you just accept that as true, then you're also accepting that the quality of every conversation going forward is outside of your control >> and that's just the reality you can't accept. >> Exactly. >> Okay. >> In your career and your life, reputation matters. You've spent years earning trust, building momentum, and showing up with character and consistency. But that momentum can be undone fast by data brokers who are posting your data online without your consent. That's why I use Delete Me because shady people are scraping the web for your personal information like your name, current and old addresses, email accounts, and even your family connections. And then they sell it. That exposure can paint a false picture of you and leave you vulnerable to annoying spam, dangerous scams, and even attacks on your character. Delete Me helps you take your narrative back. They find those data broker listings, remove them, and keep monitoring to make sure they don't come back. So, clean up your digital footprint and protect the reputation you've built. And right now, get 20% off an annual plan at joinddeleteme.com/front seat. That's jointdeleteme.comfront row seat. >> I want to stay on this with leaders. I'm gonna show you a pretty viral uh clip. And this is not crazy stuff. This is actually some really thoughtout stuff. But I thought I saw this. IWWami to expound on this cuz I think there's some great truth in this. Watch this. >> I want to know what you think. But I think if you're a manager and you can't handle conflict, you shouldn't be a manager. Full stop. Because conflict is the job, not the perk, not the bonus content, not the I hope this never happens. It is the core function. It's literally what separates managers from everybody else. Anyone can improve PTO and run team meetings. But navigate tension, having the uncomfortable conversations, addressing performance issues before they catch fire, that's leadership. And here's the part that people don't want to admit. Avoiding conflict doesn't make you nice. It makes your team unsafe because when you don't intervene, the loudest, messiest, or most entitled person on your team becomes the one running the show. Real leadership is not about being liked. It's about being trusted. And trust is built every time you step into discomfort instead of tiptoeing around it. >> Oh, that's powerful. >> I thought you would like to expound on that because I think you've just really led us into that. This now becomes negotiation. >> Mhm. >> Becomes an absolute must skill is what I take away from you. >> Absolutely. And here's the thing that people don't want to accept about this is that sometimes the reward you get for competence in your job is losing your job. Think about it. If I'm a really, really, really, really good engineer, what happens? Your boss comes and says, "Hey, I want you to manage the rest of the engineers." Now I'm not an engineer. Now I'm a manager. I never saw myself managing conflict. I never saw myself having to have communication and difficult conversations be the core of what I do. So I think it it's a step further. Sometimes the reward we get for being exceptional is losing the thing that we love the most. So there is an identity shift that has to happen that often doesn't happen because we don't make that part of the process explicit. >> Okay. I want to do I'll try my best to do some decent acting. Okay. But I I want to kind of do a little roleplay scenario that I hear a lot at our business conferences that I keynote at. And one of this is a very similar scenario. So I'll set it up and then I want you to take on the role of a manager and I'll be this character. But the the the scenario we hear a lot is >> what do I do with my top salesperson? >> They are my number one revenue producer. They they crush it, but they absolutely ruin the vibe in the office. They're a cancer. Nobody likes them, but I'm terrified to fire them or to even confront them in the chance that they may leave >> because what do I do with all that revenue? That is a very common question that I hear a lot. So, that being a context, I'll be the uh problem salesperson who thinks he hung the moon, >> but you've got a high performer >> who's also equally a problem. >> Oh, yeah. Because we will have the role play but we have to be clear on the goal because the thing is people the leaders they go in with the wrong goal >> think about that their goal is based on the fear and what's the fear I don't want to lose that person so you go into the conversation with zero leverage I don't want to lose the person so that means your goal in the conversation is to navigate the conversation in a way where the person doesn't leave not where you're holding them accountable in a way that will actually lead to behavior change >> right so with that mentality if your goal is for them to not to leave then you're going to lose the conversation You go in with no leverage, no power, and they'll feel that eventually, especially in if they're in sales. >> Okay. So, yes, 100%. So, all right, you just nailed it. So, we got to go in and we've got to shift our mindset from fear >> Mhm. >> to what? >> To figuring out what the problem is and what the true solution is. The true problem is that there's a toxic in element in the in the >> They're hurting, >> right? They're hurting. >> I think I love this advice. >> Yeah. >> You're going from fear to losing them, too. I want to go in with a posture as almost like a detective. I want to find out what is causing them so much pain that makes them >> put their pain out on everybody else. >> And I think we miss that sometimes. We got to humanize them. Am I here? I'm going to class here. Humanizing this problem, child. >> Exactly. We have to start there. But we also within ourselves need to be okay with all of the outcomes that we could go to because I'm not going to negotiate or I'm not going to compromise on the solution. There's no environment where I just say, "Okay, well, let's negotiate the amount of toxicity that's in my workplace." No, we are removing the toxicity. >> All right, walk us through uh maybe a list of the outcomes that we need to be I love all this. This is like preconfrontation. So, what are the outcomes leaders need to be running through their head that could come their way, >> right? Best case scenario, we get the person to change their behavior, number one, and we get them to stay and the toxicity is gone. Best case scenario. Worst case scenario, we say, "All right, well, this person is incapable of changing their behavior, unable or unwilling." And then we have to make a tough decision. Give them the fork in the road and let them make a decision. All right, are you going to stay with us or not? But again, I need to make sure that I am really advocating for the organization and the culture of the organization because yes, we might take a a revenue dip in that moment. But the thing is we are thinking short term if we say I'm going to keep a toxic high performer because it's going to cause problems down the road. We know that for sure. We just don't know when it will happen. So we have to come to terms with that and be okay with that outcome. And so when you think about negotiation, you always have to have a plan B. And my thing is for when it comes to confidence, you have to always find a way to be okay. That's the key. And once you become really comfortable with that situation, now you can actually have the conversation. >> That's great. >> Yeah. Is that advice? Because if we don't think about all of the scenarios, then it kind of knocks us off >> emotionally, I'm guessing. Like we can't be really present >> if we're on tilt or we're trying to keep the plates from falling. >> 100%. And this is the key to clutch communication. So when I say clutch communication, let's think about it through the lens of sports. A lot of times we don't actually understand what clutch means. So a lot of times they say clutch performers rise to the occasion. That's not actually true. What actually happens per the science is that we see an athlete as clutch not because they get better under pressure, but because everybody else gets worse, which makes them look better. And so in order to be a clutch communicator, you need to be in control of your emotions because if you're not, then you're going to make decisions based on emotionality, not rationality. And you might not even know the difference in the moment. >> That's the problem. >> Okay. All right. That's good. Anything else that we need to do pre- difficult conversation with this employee? >> I think we're in a good spot. I think we're in a good spot. Now we can role play. >> Okay. Yeah. So, I think you should start it because I want these leaders to learn from you how we might even ease into or maybe there ain't no easing. Let's do it. All right, >> Ken, I I appreciate you coming in today and having this conversation. Um, your Before we get into this, I want to say we've really appreciated everything that you've done for the team. You're a high performer. Your sales numbers are great and and and I know that. And I want to talk about the team dynamic. But before we get into it, I want to get your perspective on how things have been going recently. No, >> I think things are great. Like you said, I mean, I'm crushing it, you know. I'm just totally focused, man. I'm I'm trying to keep breaking my goals. I beat my goal last. I want to set a record, you know, and I mean, you know, I'm not sure what everybody else is doing, but I know I got my head down and I'm crushing it. >> Yeah. So, it sounds like you're pretty proud of your performance then. >> Yeah, I'm really proud. Yeah. I'm not even sure why we're in here talking, you know? I mean, I could be out there smiling and dialing right now. >> That was good. >> You didn't know it was going to be that good. That was good. >> This is some good acting right here. >> This guy's so charming. But yeah, no, and we appreciate it. And I agree. Your numbers have been stellar. And the thing is when especially when you are in the position that you're in doing so well, people will look up to you. You're going to get a lot of attention. And because of that, I wanted to bring something to your attention that you might not have noticed. So a few of your colleagues have mentioned that there have been some instances where they felt that the way that you interacted with them was a little bit harsh or disrespectful. And I wanted to bring that to you to to get your perspective on it and see what we could do. >> I I I have no idea what they're talking about, but I can tell you they're just these are these are snowflakes. I don't I don't have time for snowflakes. So, it's nothing like no character assassination. I mean, I don't know what they're talking about, but I can tell you that they're taking it the wrong way. I'm just getting after it. I don't have time for all this sensitivity kumbaya stuff. You know, I I say it as it is because I deliver the results. So, I don't really care about how it bounces up against them. I'm not even thinking that way. So, I mean, I'm happy to address it with them. I don't know why they didn't come to me. Bunch of babies. >> Yeah. Well, so it sounds like for you, your goal is to make sure number one, you're getting the job done. That's right. >> Number two, you're hitting your numbers. And it sounds like, and you didn't say this explicitly, but when it comes to the way that you interact with people, it's more of a timing issue. So, you want to be direct and get moving so you can get back to work. >> Yeah. I mean, I just honestly not thinking about, you know, how everybody feels because I'm just about all business. I mean, we got a common goal. I'm trying to win, right? >> And I just, you know, if you get in my way, okay, yeah, I might run over you, but, >> you know, buckle up, buttercup. I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, do you have some specific examples? >> Yeah. And so, there have been multiple instances where you had conversations and you were dismissive of what the person was saying. And I think instead of like going into some of the specifics cuz I would want to have the other person there so I I'm not playing a game of telephone. I just want to start this conversation off with you because it sounds like for you the goal is to make sure that the business objectives are met which are which is going to be making sure the sales are closed. >> That's right. >> But the thing is that you might not be missed you might not fully appreciate is the fact that a big part of business is the team dynamic. And right now the team is suffering because they feel as though you are steamrolling them. They don't feel respected. And so I understand that you don't agree with their perspective. But what I'm asking you to do is start to consider that in the way that you interact with them. And we can get into some like coaching on how what that looks like. But even though you don't believe that this is necessary and it might not be necessary for you, for the people around you it does have an impact. >> I'm just not interested in that. I'm not interested. I think it's all a bunch of crap. I think you've been lied to. I don't This doesn't even make any sense because I'm hitting my goals. I'm hitting my numbers. I'm your number one producer. So, like, do you want me here or not? >> I do. I do. And the thing is, I want you here under certain circumstances because we can't have you still hitting your numbers while it's having a negative impact on other people. >> What are you saying? >> What am I saying in >> What do you mean circumstances? What is that? What am I supposed to do with that? So here's the thing and so I want to be transparent with you. When it comes to the culture, there's a certain way that we have to treat people and there's a certain benchmark in terms of how we connect and communicate with other people that we have to meet. So you are not just meeting but also exceeding your sales quota. So we can put that to the side. We're not talking about that. We're talking about team dynamics and leadership. And so I don't want to be in a situation where I have to make a hard decision about you. Not because of your sales ability, but because of the ability for you to communicate with other people on the team. >> Okay. >> Yeah, >> that's good. All right. I tried my best. >> That was good. >> I tried my best to be a real jerk. >> Yeah. And the thing is, you weren't I didn't feel like you were personally being disrespectful to me. You were being disrespectful to other people, which made it easier for me to stay in it. But I think there were a couple of little nuances that I wanted to I want to point out. So, first off, you notice I didn't directly counter anything that you said. I think what's really interesting about this is that we feel as though when we're persuading somebody, we need them to adopt the entirety of our narrative. I don't need you to agree with everything. I don't need you to even think that this is the right move to do. I need you to come to the conclusion that this is something I have to do in order to maintain the position. So for you, what I wanted to do is say, hey, it's important for you to be seen as a top dog salesperson. Great. I'll give you that. That doesn't cost me anything. It's important for you to know that it's important for you to tell me that the thing that matters the most is sales quotas. Great. Cool. I will accept that under your terms. And now what I'm introducing is that what's important to me and other people is business culture. And then you say you disagree with that. And I say it is okay for you to disagree with that. And on top of that, now I have to make a decision. So you don't have to agree with the decision, but the decision is completely within my control. And now I'm giving you an option. >> So I'm never I'm not forcing you in any situation. So I allow you to maintain your identity. And then I'm giving you an a slight edit on the identity. So you can still not like this and still do it. >> But the choice is yours. >> Oh, I love that. >> Yeah. >> If you want to do work that matters this year, start with better rest. Folks, it's harder to lead, think, and create when your body is running on fumes. That's why I love Avocado Green Mattress. Avocado mattresses help you rest well so you can live well. They're handcrafted from certified organic, non-toxic materials. That means no junk, no chemicals, just comfort and support so that you wake up clear, focused, and ready to give your best at work and at home. That's the power of starting every day refreshed. When you sleep well, you think better, you lead better. You parent better. And speaking of parenting, Avocado also offers kids mattresses and crib mattresses to protect your little sleepers with real, safe materials and support their growing bodies the right way. Visit avocadogreenmattress.com/ken to find your next mattress today and get an extra $50 off adult mattresses with the code front row seat. That's avocadoo green mattress.com/ken. Okay, I want to stay in the workplace and try to pick a couple other scenarios to let you just what do we do based on what you're teaching us and what we can learn from you. Let's say we're in a team meeting. >> Mhm. uh with our colleagues and and um we are championing an idea. So we're it's kind of our idea. Maybe it's spontaneous. Maybe I've prepared for it, but I'm advocating this way forward or some proposal or some idea. >> And a grizzled veteran, I'm using that language. You know, somebody's been around a while. They've got some experience and with that experience, some level of respect >> and they just aren't buying in. and maybe not even just not buying in, they're actively poking holes in it. And I I may be feeling disrespected, cut off. Hey, you're not even giving this a fair shake. >> This is a moment of tension, certainly conflict, >> right? >> What do we do in that scenario? So, if this is a well, actually, first of all, we have to talk about rank. we have to talk about power and authority because in certain workplaces just because somebody has a lot of experience doesn't mean that they have rank and authority within an organization but a lot of times it does >> we give it to them and that's why I set it up that way you know like this I'm picturing in my scenario some old dude who's just a little gruff and you know hasn't had a good night's sleep >> in a long time >> for 10 years >> decades >> yep I'm getting it and I think one of the things that's important to do is when a person like that is having a conversation they truly want to be seen They do want to be seen. And what ends up happening is the way that they approach it makes it in it creates this dynamic where that's the last thing you want to do. So it turns into an argument. They're arguing. And now here's the thing about these situations. Somebody who is naturally more combative and argumentative, they they have a lot of reps doing that. That's how they lived their life. So for me, it helps me to not take it personally because it's not that they are doing this to me, they do this to everybody, right? And if I start to take that approach of arguing back and forth, I'm in a situation where I really cannot win. Because now when it becomes an argument, it's not about right versus wrong. It's about me versus you. It's about domination and subordination. Intellectual domination, moral domination, whatever it happens to be. And nobody wants to end the conversation by being dominated. That's we're taking the path of most resistance in these conversations, right? So I think we have to reorganize the way that we're having the conversation. That's the first thing. Second thing is if this is a pattern of behavior where you cannot get a word in and you cannot be heard, we have to recognize that the issue is not a matter of whether or not your points are correct. The sole issue is that you cannot be heard. So we need to find a way for you to be heard. So the key is to before you actually have the conversation, you renegotiate how you have the conversation. So, you would say something like this. So, Ken, hey, we have this conversation coming up. Um, I'm looking forward to it, but before we get into the the nuts and bolts of this. I know in the past we've had conversations like this and this is something that you care a lot about. And I respect that. And the problem is that sometimes when you care a lot about this, you can talk but not listen. And sometimes I get interrupted. So before this all I want to do is just have an agreement that when you are talking I'm focusing on you listening and not interrupting and all I ask is that you pay me the same respect. Is is that fair? >> That's it. And what's funny is in a lot of these conversations it is the awkward thing that you don't want to say that you need to say that changes everything. >> Oh my gosh. Isn't that true? Yeah. That's so good. Okay. Another another um possible situation I think happens a lot. We know this from data actually. People feel as though they're overlooked. They want that promotion. They're getting passed up or maybe they're not even getting a shot at it. >> I've heard that a lot >> and so they don't feel seen literally because the boss is not giving them a shot. And so then they start absent of clarity with this is on the leader. They don't know where they stand. And we humans I think when we figure out we don't know where we stand, we start filling that void with a really unhealthy narrative. Yes. So, >> I think a lot of professionals are feeling this and I thought it would be fun to ask you. Okay, this is a little bit different scenario. Um, but how do they approach that boss? Because that's an intimidating thing. That boss holds their future in their hands financially is how this comes out. >> Yes. >> How do they use some negotiation tactics or skills to raise their hand to say, "Hey, I'd like a shot or whatever, but not again come across like a victim or complaining." Yes. So for the person who's listening who finds themsself in this situation, just know that the negotiation needs to begin right now. So I want to just get that that on the table. If the person who's listening to this feels that in their chest, like that's my situation, good. Do something immediately. Because one of the things we have to do is recognize as especially when it comes to compensation and promotions. This is a long-term type of thing. In most cases, you can't just say, "Hey boss, can I have a raise?" They're like, "I have a ton of money to give you right now." >> Correct. legit, right? So, this is something that needs to be you need to plant seeds months in advance before the actual conversation begins. So, most likely if this resonates with you, you're already behind. That's the first thing. Second thing is all you need to do is lead with curiosity. So, you start the conversation and just say, "Hey boss, who Ken? So, in this conversation, I just want to get an idea of where you see me in the organization right now and where you see me going. And so when it comes to my position, how do you think I've been doing? Get them to talk about your performance. We're not having this. If you're on a performance improvement plan, this is probably not the time >> conversation. So there's an underlying assumption that you're already doing well, right? >> Okay. So you start right then. So you're getting them to say the thing that you would have said otherwise. It's more persuasive if it comes from them. So I'm not saying this. You said it, Ken. You just said it. >> That's right. >> Right. So, it sounds like you think that I'm doing well. Um, is there out of curiosity, is there anything that I could be doing better? There might not be an answer, which is a great answer because that means you're doing really well. And if there is something that they say you could do better, just say, okay, let me get some details and get some clear metrics on that. Now, you have something to work on. But before you leave the meeting, you say, hypothetically, if I were to do these things, where do you see my future going in this company? Okay. And then you can say just say that awkward thing. I'm and I want to be transparent with you, Ken. Uh because I truly enjoy working here and I want to continue to move up and it's been challenging for me because I felt like I have been doing well and I'm not quite understanding why I haven't moved forward. Can you help me understand what's happening here? >> And you see this is not aggressive. It's not confrontational. It's purely curiosity because it's often the case that the boss doesn't have anything against you. Your boss is just busy. And what often happens is that they pay more attention to the underperformers that they have to think about a lot and often forget the high performers because if you're a boss who constantly has to have conversations, it's usually with somebody who is not performing well. And you often take for granted the people who are just doing their job and getting it done. So you're raising awareness. You have the conversation. You follow up with an email summarizing everything and talking about next steps because another thing that works against us isn't malice. It's not intentional gaslighting. It's memory. >> That's right. >> They forget. They forget the promises they made. Right now, you can refer back to an email. And with that, we simplify the process and the conversation. >> I I love the advice there. And what I'm taking away is is that what you told us to do there is not going to make that leader defensive unless they're just wildly unhealthy. I'm not because I don't want anybody to go whatwami just said is defensive proof. It's not because we are dealing with human beings. But the way you came at that, there was a whole bunch of humility. It was, "Okay, I'm asking, not telling. >> I want to know what you think." You were putting the ball in the leader or the manager's court to say, "How do you see me? Where do you see me?" And so, they're not now they're kind of It just It doesn't put them on the defensive. So many people will go into a situation like that uh about a raise. Yeah. >> And just point blank go, "Hey, uh why why haven't I gotten a raise or what do I need to do?" And you pointed out early on in your answer that many times that manager isn't solely responsible or doesn't have the power in and of themselves to give you that raise, >> right? >> They got to go up. >> Absolutely. >> They got to make a case. >> And I love the way you laid that out because now we're creating a conversation that hopefully comes out with measurables. That's what I heard. >> It needs to be concrete because you can be doing well. What does that mean? >> Correct. >> Right. You how do we define that? There needs to be some kind of metric and you want them to commit to that. And one other note too because there is probably somebody who says I had that conversation with my boss and that was completely unreasonable. That is data that is important because we what we want to do is gather as much data as possible not just to try to solve the problem make and make the solution better but to give us the data that we need to make a decision. Because if you're running into a situation where the boss is actually truly unreasonable and they have no intention of promoting you and they don't care about you, that's important to know. Yes. Because this probably isn't where you need to be. >> That's correct. I I want to stay there because I was going to ask you about this anyway and I'll just open it up to say you just gave us some great evidence, but how do we know when to end a relationship? And I'm going to broaden this to obviously personal relationships. uh dare I say maybe even some family relationships that are not you know romantic in nature >> and certainly the relationship at work like okay this is where I go to work how can we have confidence that we've done everything that we can do and at at this point now it is the healthy decision to cut ties yes >> I'd love to hear your thoughts >> you have to pay attention to the patterns okay >> pay attention to the patterns pay attention to the trajectory of the relationship too. So it comes down to the word sustainability, is this sustainable long-term? So you have to ask yourself if this situation does not change, can I tolerate it? Right? And you have to be really honest with yourself about it because you might be able to tolerate it for a week or two, a month or two, but once we get past six, I I can't do that. It might just be a little micro incompatibility within a relationship. It's like I don't like the way they brush their teeth. think, okay, I could deal with as long as they're doing it. >> Right. Right. As long as they're doing it, right? >> But it's like if it's something more s more significant, I don't the way that they are managing the finances are it is irresponsible and it's putting our family in a really bad position with consistency. Okay. I we only really have three more months before this becomes untenable. And so what you need to do is have that conversation with yourself to see what sustainability looks like and be really honest with yourself about that. Then have a conversation. and see if you can change their behavior. Have another conversation and let them know hey listen I wanted to bring this to your attention because now this has become unsustainable for me. And within the workplace sustainability that that word that is a trigger for their boss because they say my goodness replacing this person will be expensive. It'll be timeconuming. I don't want to deal with that. Cuz for me with my with my team if they say this is unsustainable that's a red alert in my head. I need to do something immediately with a sense of urgency. But we might run into a situation where the person is incapable of change or unwilling to change. All right? Then I give myself the right to make a decision that's in my best interest. And then one last thing too, I have this concept called the potential trap. And so a lot of times we don't bet on a person's present state. We bet on their hypothesized potential. And when you think about what we see as potential, it's nothing more than our imagination projected into the future. It's hope. And a lot of times we are unwilling to admit that we were wrong in our assessment of the other person. And we blame them for not reaching a potential that was only in existence in our own mind. And often times the thing that holds us back from coming to that conclusion is our lack of humility to admit that we were wrong in our initial assessment. >> Wow. Okay. >> If I'm hearing you right, many times the reason we won't move on or we won't create a necessary ending as my friend Dr. Henry Cloud wrote in that book is because we're still hanging on to great expectations. Mhm. >> Is that what I need to learn from what you just said? That was phenomenal. We're the ones >> that are hanging on. >> Exly. It's us. It's us. >> We should have recognized a long time ago it was not sustainable. Is that what I'm hearing? >> And that's it. And we should have said, you know what? I thought this person could get to this level, but they cannot. They've demonstrated that they are unwilling or unable to reach that level, and that is the level I need in order to make this sustainable. and I need to come to terms with the fact that I was incorrect in my assessment and I need to accept that reality and then that often is what releases us to make a decision. I'm wondering if because I believe what you just said is right. But I'm wondering if >> we subconsciously >> do know. Oh, you're laughing. This is going to be good. I'm wondering if we subconsciously know this is not sustainable, but then our fear and doubt comes in. And this is something I've said for a long time. I in in a previous show, Hit Ramsey, I coached over 10,000 unhappy professionals. It was like a Dr. fill for professionals. Okay. >> One of the things I realized after several thousand calls is that the reason that many people won't make a change professionally is because they'd rather be miserable than uncomfortable. >> Oo. Oh, that's really good. And I believe that to be true. So I I tell you that to come right back where you left us. I'm wondering if we hold on to the expectation because we don't want to confront the reality of we're going to have to accept uncomfortable situation. Change is uncomfortable for most people. >> I'm wondering is there a tie there? I don't want to try to make that work. >> 100%. You're absolutely correct. >> I want to call that out for people. >> Yeah. And I think we have to ask ourselves what quality of life do we want to have? And one of the things that can help you make this assessment is a really simple thing. Would let's say it's a a relationship and somebody's not treating you the right way. Let's say you have a best friend. If your best friend was in in this scenario, would you accept that for them? >> Great. That's good. >> Yeah. >> And what what Okay, I know what you told us to do, but what is happening there? >> Because a lot of times it's easier for us to assess the problems with somebody else than it is for ourselves. like we're detaching from our own situation there. >> Yeah. It's like the best coach needs a coach. Therapists need therapists, too, right? Because we need that objectivity. >> And so, it's sometimes easier for us to simply say, "Yeah, this person's a toxic person in your life. You need to dump him. Dump >> him." If my good friend came to me and told me what I'm dealing with and it was their problem, I'd go, "You're out of your mind for staying there." >> So, when you start to think of yourself like your own best friend and you say, "Would I want this for my own best friend?" And if the answer is no, then we need to be that friend to ourselves. >> If you're serious about winning at work this year, then let me ask you a simple question. Are your systems helping you grow or holding you back? That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled quo, the smarter way to run your business communications. Because here's the deal. Missed calls don't just cost you business, they cost you momentum. That's like showing up to a job interview in your pajamas. You might be brilliant, but you just blew it. Effective leaders don't miss opportunities because of sloppy communication. And Quo gives you and your team one shared business number, so every call and every text is handled professionally. It works right from your phone or computer so your team stays aligned as your company grows. And smart tools like call summaries and follow-ups make sure nothing slips through the cracks. So, make this the year where no opportunity gets away. Try Quo for free. Plus, get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com/ken. That's quo.com/ken. Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers. Okay. Now, that leads me, I wonder, how do we negotiate with ourselves? >> That's the question. It's particularly in this in this scenario here, >> I subconsciously or consciously know that this is not sustainable. It's affecting my mental health, my physical health, my emotional health. I'm dragging that crap home to work with uh to the house with me. >> I mean, this is real what we're talking about. Oh, yeah. This is happening every day. >> Oh, yeah. >> How do I begin to negotiate with myself? Because I think we're almost negotiating with ourselves anyway. >> You have to start there. And I think a lot of times our negotiations fail because we don't have that first one. So think about this, Ken. So I can have a negotiation and I can have a plan. I can have a goal and I can navigate to that goal and successfully get it and then the acquisition of that goal could be the worst thing that ever happens to me because I didn't take the time to understand what I really wanted and needed. >> What's that end result? >> Yeah. Exactly. So we have to say, okay, what am I feeling? Let's write all of these things down. I need to figure out how am I feeling about this situation? Because if we're not clear on how I'm feeling, then we won't be clear on how those emotions are impacting our decision-m process. And then get clear on what we want, but also why. And we ask ourselves why until we get to the absolute core of this. Because a lot of times what our initial desire is is just the surface level goal. And we don't consider what what we truly need. So let's think about a toxic relationship. So in this situation, we might say, "I want this relationship to be less toxic. I need this person to stop doing this." And that I think that is a fair goal, but why? Because it's having a negative impact on my mental health. Why? Because now I can't sleep at night. I'm now it's having a a a trickle down effect on the rest of my family. Okay. And so hypothetically, what if you can't achieve that goal? Then what do you need? Oh, it's not necessarily that I need this person to do these things. If there's a person in my life, I need them to do those things. It doesn't necessarily need to be that person. And what you're going to start to see is that a lot of times our goals are just by definition disempowering because our pathway to success is contingent upon somebody who is unreasonable becoming reasonable. >> Wow. >> Right. >> Wow. >> And so that's when you can come to that conclusion. Now, again, going back to something I said earlier, we would need to find a way to be okay. So hypothetically, if this person doesn't come around, then what am I going to do? Oh, that would be uncomfortable, but there is a pathway to not being miserable, and that's what I'll have to do. And now I need to really sit with that reality and become okay with that. And so now you go into that conversation, and you can be very laid-back because you don't need to feel that need to like force somebody because it's like there's this psychological push and pull. Everybody plays a role. We we have these roles in our heads subconsciously. Just think about any other animal. They they do too. If there's a dog here and we were to sprint at that dog, that dog's going to run away. It's like, what is happening? That I'm running, right? If I if a dog's sitting here and I run, the dog's going to chase. It's a chaser chasey dichotomy. And so in our conversations, if I really need you to do something, it feels like an infringement on your agency. I want to have a choice to do something. So, I'm going to try to do the other thing to assert myself in the conversation. And so, a lot of times the more we want a person to change, the less likely they are to change because we are pushing and they're running away. It creates that counter. So, by sitting back and saying, "Hey, listen. This is the problem I'm experiencing. It's having this impact on me." And they say, "No, I don't care. You should get over it. You're being a snowflake. You're being too too soft." I'm like, "Okay, if you feel that way, that's fine. I just wanted to let you know that it's no longer sustainable for me. and if it's more important for you to engage in those behaviors, you have every right to do that and then I'm gonna have to make some tough decisions going forward. I just wanted to let you know. >> Wow. >> Conversation's done. And what's interesting is often times that's way more persuasive. >> Yeah. And and as you were talking about how much we desire for a person to change, I'm thinking spouse and I'm thinking child. >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. >> And as parents, we'll start there. Mhm. >> Uh as parents, boy, we we start getting into control mode. >> Mhm. >> And when we can't control the teenager and it's not working, then anger takes over, maybe rage, whatever, but we're not getting anywhere with the kid. >> Yeah. >> And I don't think we think of it in terms of good parenting many times is a form of negotiation. And I don't mean as in capitulation, >> right? >> But true negotiation. Is that true? >> I agree. Yeah. And I think especially with children, one of the things that we're battling against that we don't speak of intentionally in this context is focus. It's focus. It's really hard to get their attention. So, they're distracted by their phones. They're distracted by busyness. They're looking for a way out. Attention spans are shorter than ever before. It's being hard. It's harder for people to manage their emotions. And they're always going to look for a way out. So, they so it's really hard for them to actually lean into the conversation. So, context will matter. So, one of the simplest things you can do is just change the scenario. Two really great options. Go for a drive. Driving in a car is a beautiful way to get this done. So, you drive, they drive. Doesn't matter where you're going. There doesn't need to be a destination. There's no confrontational aspect where it's me versus you looking at each other. We're both looking forward, moving in the same direction. That's a great way to get people's focus. Another easy way and this is something that they actually used in aparttheid to break through in a lot of conversations. Whenever you reach an impass, take a walk. Take a walk with the person because what ends up happening again you're moving in the same direction. So it feels more collaborative. But the hidden gem in this is that they're going to be decision points. Do we go right? Do we go left? We have to agree on that. So you have microaggreements throughout the conversation and interaction. And sometimes the conversation just doesn't go well because you don't have the right environment. You don't have the focus and you're not moving in the same direction. >> So am I hearing that there is a physiological hack >> to difficult conversations? >> Oh, there can be. >> Can be. Yeah. Yeah. >> You have to have a willing participant who will say go on the walk or go on the drive. >> But that is a fascinating deal there. >> Yeah. because now we don't even need to really it's we have ample time and we have ample focus and sometimes that's all it takes. Think about um pressure. Sometimes that's what it takes to make the damn break. It doesn't need to be like an explosive movement. And so you just ask questions, figure out what it is that your child wants in the situation. How are they seeing themselves? And then you can just help them through the art of strategic questioning. help them to realize that their behavior is counter to their own stated goal and hope for the their future and identity. >> So I don't need to teach you anything. You teach yourself. >> Yeah, it's true. Explain to the audience the differences in what happens when someone's on the receiving end of a what question versus a why question. >> Yeah. Comes down to defensiveness. So when you ask a question that starts with why, it sounds accusatory no matter what your tone is. Because for so long in our life when the person who has power asks us why did you do something it's not a good situation you know think about with your kids if they inexplicably spill something you're like why did you do that right so it's been ingrained in our heads and so just transitioning it to what or how is a really good way to do this this is a Chris Voss special he's really great at that but it just softens the question another great way to soften the question is by just starting off with out of curiosity and then asking the question because it's it's not aggressive. It shows that your goal is to learn, not to accuse and it just softens it. And so that's the thing because it's not just about asking a question that grammatically makes sense to get the information that you want. It's about asking the question in a way that is geared toward making the person feel safe enough to actually answer the question and give the information. >> Do you do this to your wife and she goes, "I know what you're doing." I mean, you know, >> she listens to the podcast. She knows this is your life's work. >> Yes. Yes. >> What is that dynamic for in all honesty with you two cuz you know what to do. Are you able to do it all the time? >> No. No. I'm a person. >> I figured I figured but I but I don't want to assume you know. >> I think that but I think it's really important for people who are experts in communication to be a little bit more honest to recognize that tell people recognize that they too will fall short. This is a human thing. It's not about not making mistakes. It's about being honest about when you make mistakes, being humble enough to admit it and then adjust. And so that's why I like doing these role plays live because I want to be willing to put my reputation on the line and let people know that in the role play I will make mistakes. I'm sure in the comments of this video somebody would say he shouldn't have said this. Let those conversations happen. I I made mistakes in that. But the point is that you will for sure make mistakes in every conversation you have correct and you can recover and course correct in the middle of it. So when Whitney says, "Heywami, I know you're doing this negotiation thing." I'll say, "Yeah, I am. And here's my goal. Here's what I'm doing, and this is why I'm doing it." You You can't be mad when the playbook's open. >> Yeah, that's good. What is a common or what is one of the most common negotiations that we humans do every day and we don't realize it's an actual negotiation? >> It's a dinner. >> Dinner. >> Oh, it's >> talk to me about this. >> This is a it is a running joke that I've had throughout my career. Ken, so I always ask I have this I present using an app called Mentometer. So people can um answer questions and there's engagement during the keynote. >> Oh, I love that. >> Yeah. So even if it's a big audience, we get engagement and people can ask questions. So, I say I define negotiation. Anytime we're having a conversation, when somebody wants something, the next slide is when are you negotiating personally and professionally? And in my mind, I keep that slide up until somebody says dinner. It doesn't take long. No matter where I am in the world, no matter what the context, everybody, it always happens. It's never breakfast. It's never lunch. It's always >> dinner. And so, I think it's a couple of things. As humans, we do this thing where we forget that we need to feed ourselves every day. Right? Think how many times have you been in a situation you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so hungry. What am I going to eat?" Like, we're surprised every single time. Right. >> So, you and your partner come to the same conclusion. You can you can fast through breakfast. You can fast through lunch, but once it becomes dinner, now it's a priceless eat. >> Right. But we're both tired. I don't want to do it. >> And so, who's cooking dinner? Where's dinner coming from? What is it? It's always dinner. It's really funny. It's so consistent. >> Yes. And I would have never thought of it as a negotiation cuz I'm a recovering people pleaser. >> And and and and then I'm married to an amazing woman who has the hardest time making a decision. >> Yeah. >> But I don't. >> Mhm. >> But I really want her >> to tell me what she wants. And so it's like But if she can't, then I'll just go, "All right." >> Yeah. >> But I really want her to tell me first. Is that the negotiation? >> So in the your case, yes. So two things that can go to a decision point because it's not a hard negotiation. You just it's the difficulty in coming to a conclusion. Yes. >> So one of the things that you can do is ask what don't you want. >> So sometimes it's hard for them to say what they do want, but it's easier for them to say what they don't want. And through process of elimination, you can get to a conclusion faster. >> You may be saving me so much tension cuz my irritation is I just want her to pick. >> Yeah. and she's just like, "I don't know. I don't know." And then every once in a while, she'll just go, "You decide." At that point, I'm off the hook. >> But you're saying, "I need to look at her and go, what do you not want?" >> Yeah. What don't you want today? Oh, I don't want Italian. I don't want Chinese. Okay. So, and then you can narrow it down that way. And one of the things that I've I've done in situations like that and in leadership situations too at work is that I'm willing to be wrong. I'll just give out a solution knowing that it's probably wrong because it's easier for people to criticize than they are it is for them to decide. >> Oh, I love that. So, you'll throw an idea out that you know is probably not the winner, but it it it unlocks everybody. >> Oh, yeah. Sometimes it'll be an intentionally bad idea. >> Yes. Oh, that's a really good uh dare I say good idea. >> Exactly right. >> The good idea, bad idea. >> Uh-huh. So, it's like, oh, this is probably a bad idea, but why don't we do this? No, that's a stupid idea. Why? Okay. >> Now, everybody's now people can jump in. They're afraid of being wrong. It's like, I'll be wrong. That's fine. I don't care. >> Okay. >> I'm humble. >> I see that. Yeah. So, that's that's the human element, too. It's no one wants to throw something out cuz they don't want to be wrong, but they have no problem telling you you're wrong. Which is, by the way, why the comment warriors are so free. >> They don't do shows. They don't go through that effort. They just consume and take shots. >> Exactly. >> It's so easy to fire off a comment, isn't it? >> It is. Cuz there's something wrong with everything. Yeah. >> So, you can always find something wrong. >> Okay. I we did some research for our show recently and we found the data shows that the two biggest problems that professionals identify as what they're dealing with in their work life >> is burnout. >> Yeah. >> And then a lack of balance, life balance. and we're talking to a negotiation expert and I wonder if we learned what you could teach us about some of the causes of burnout, right? That's there's stress, it's causing burnout. There's we've talked about people can't get ahead. They feel like they're stuck. Uh, one of thing we haven't talked about is boredom. >> People that are bored burn out pretty quickly and they don't think of that as as a cause. So, with that being a long- winded setup, I want you to teach us or encourage us how to negotiate with ourselves. And I I I wonder if it's similar to what you said earlier, which is with people. Is it a similar thing to say what is this sustainable? >> Is that where we start there, too? >> That's a big one. But before we even get there, we have to diagnose the problem. >> Because for instance, boredom and burnout, like you said, can feel very similar. So, you might not be pushing very hard in your work, there might not be that much actual stress, but it might feel like stress, it might feel like burnout if you're just not stimulated. So, if we say if it's really a boredom issue and we identify it as a burnout issue, then we create these boundaries and end up feeling the exact same way because we solve for the wrong thing. So, we have to be very clear on what that is because you're right, sustainability is one of the key questions, but we have to correctly identify what the problem is. >> What's really causing this? >> Exactly. Exactly. Another thing is that we don't know what work is. What is work? And so one of my favorite definition for work now is if you are thinking about work, you're working. So when does the workday end? We don't turn off. >> Come on. >> We don't turn off, right? So it's not just about setting boundaries with our colleagues and our bosses. It's about setting boundaries with ourselves. What can we do to make sure that we're not thinking about work past the workday? Okay, I got to jump in because I want you to define >> for us what you would prescribe turning off to look like. >> Yes. >> Come on. >> I've had to go through this recently, so I've got it. So, for me, one of especially since the majority of the work that I do is at home. We had an office. I said, "Let's I want to spend more time with my kids. I travel a lot. So, for me, it's home is the office." But then what ends up happening is as I walk throughout the day, I will remember things that stress me out from work, >> right? >> You know, and so I said I had to start to create some clear parameters on what my work day looks like and where I do work. So if I'm having a fun conversation, I can have that anywhere in the house. If I'm having a work conversation, that's only in my office because I want to be able to kind of cognitively leave that there. That's one thing. The other thing, too, is that I started to create a an endofday ritual. M >> so I can actually clearly be done. And it sounds really hokey. I thought it was too, but it actually helped. So what I started to do is during the day I'd listen to smooth jazz as I work. So I only listen to jazz as I work. But then my my family's from the Caribbean. So we uh I love reggae. What I would do is at the end of the workday, I put on some bar Marley. >> Come on. >> Close the laptop. And then I'll do just like some stretches and like a yoga stretch and actually say to myself, >> "The day is over." >> Okay, >> I am here with my family. >> Work day is done. >> I'm just here with my family. I do that three times >> and then I close the laptop, leave it there. >> Done. >> Wow. >> That's it. Yeah. >> And don't touch it in the rest of the night. >> It needs to be like an actual emergency. Like things need to be burning down. >> Yeah. >> You know, so if somebody texts me, I would just say, "Hey, I'll get to this tomorrow." What is the power of whether it's yoga or switching the music? What is happening here? >> Cuz I'm sure that's what that is. What what's the psychological effect that you just described what's happening? >> It's similar to state dependent learning. So sometimes if you learn something in a specific location, you will remember it better in that location. So one, for instance, in college, I would try to study in the room that I would take the test because I would leave memories in that room. Think about when you are you forget like you go into a room and you you're like why did I come into this room? Sometimes if you go back to the room that you originally had that thought in you remember the thought. So humans are weird and I think if we just come to terms with how weird we are life becomes a little bit easier. And so I want to have certain markers that signal work and certain markers that signal home. And so I want to be very intentional about that because if I don't it's not that those markers won't exist. They will exist and I won't be in control of them. M. >> And so then I'm walking in like if I do business in my bedroom while while gone now I go to bed and I'm thinking about financial plans and stuff. >> That's not It's not romantic. It's not good. >> The That's right. >> All right, folks. What did you learn today? What'd you learn? I learned so much and I wrote so many things down. Uh but this entire show, as you know, is dedicated to helping you learn alongside of me. And I want you to take so much away. But here's something that I took away and I want you to be challenged by it. Uh you said this very early onwami. The more humility I have, the more curiosity I can have. If you want to be a lifelong learner, and I know that this audience does. That's why you're tuned in. You you want to be a human sponge, right? We want to learn so that we can grow, so that we can do uh I think just this posture of humility. Where can I be just blank statement enter the day with a posture of humility? And I'm thinking here I want to put myself in the place of an insatiable college student who actually wants to be there. Maybe it's the master student or the doctoral student in a place of learning for a purpose. And if I can take on that posture of humility, it will fuel my curiosity. I thought that was really great. And I'm going to try to apply that in my home. How can I be more curious about what Stacy wants and needs and my kids and here in the office? And again, it's that posture of humility. So, I'm going to be working on that. And I challenge you to as well. Hey, if you're enjoying the show, would you help us? You're the ultimate marketing tool. And you do that by giving us that thumbs up uh by sharing and subscribing. And stay tuned here in the show notes for future guests. We'd love to see you sometime maybe for our live audience specials. Well, that was fun, my friend. Thank you. I'm >> better for it. I know our audience is as well. I appreciate Appreciate you. Thank you.