How capitalism ate the culture

Did that experience sort of uh convince you that advertising was the enemy and maybe a tool that you could use [music] uh to your own ends? I found out that advertising is one of the most powerful forces in the world. But at the same time, I found out that there are strangely ethically ambivalent types. And so I I liked the power of what they were doing and I loved their creativity which was sometimes I just blew me away with the the the [music] the subtle ways that they were able to get their message across. But uh but ethically bad people well you would call them ethically neutral. I would call them nihilist but uh you know no need to split hairs. >> [music] [music] [music] >> Callie Lassen, welcome to the show. >> Happy to be here. >> It's very cool to have you here. You have lived a very interesting life and I think it'll be a lot of fun to talk about it. So, I'm pumped. Okay, for people who aren't familiar with you or for people who don't know anything about Adbusters, the magazine you started in Vancouver back in 1989. >> Yeah. >> What was how would you describe it? What was the mission of the thing? >> The mission of Adbusters? >> Yeah. Well, actually, you know, we were a bunch of environmentalists that kept on meeting every now and again and and then something happened that we didn't like the the forest industry here. Uh it suddenly came up with a campaign uh that tried to make British Columbombians feel better about what they're doing in the forests even though they were cutting the forest down. uh the old growth forests were disappearing fast, but they came up with this campaign. They called it forests forever and they said that uh that hey British Columbombians, we're doing a fantastic job managing your forests. You've got forest forever. And they had full page ads in the in newspapers and and they had TV ads coming on and and this really pissed us off. They were basically lying to the people. Uh, so we came up with our own 30-cond TV spot. Uh, and we tried to tell the other side of the story. And then when I walked into the into the TV stations here in in Vancouver and tried to buy airtime for that 30 secondond spot, they said to me, "Oh, Mr. Lson, sorry. This isn't really an ad. You can't you can't really run this." and and and this uh basically they they said that the other side they can tell their story but but um but uh a Canadian citizen didn't have the right to walk into their TV station into the and and and put their money on the table and say give me 30 30 seconds of air time I want to have something to say they said no you can't do that and uh and that was the moment that Adbusters Media Foundation was born that's the moment that we started a newsletter uh and [clears throat] we started speaking back and and then I was invited on some TV shows and radio shows and and it was a a cataclysmic moment for me because I suddenly found out that you can speak back anyway. That's how we were born. It was born out of this out of rage out of anger against being censored especially for a guy like me who was born in Estonia and and uh and in my country you know for you you weren't allowed to speak back against the government. If you were, you really suffered. And all of a sudden, you know, 50 years later, I find myself in the land of the home and the and all, you know, this free country. And all of a sudden here, I found out that you can't speak back against a sponsor. >> Well, I I know there was um quite a legal battle that ensued, but were you actually able to get your ads on TV? Did it make a dent? How did that play out? Well, it turned out to be sort of an interesting play because we found out that when you tell when we told the Canadians that uh that okay the the you know your your public broadcaster censored this ad they refused to run this ad. Then all of a sudden everybody wanted to see the ad. So, it was a like an interesting activist play where uh where the fact that we were censored actually got more people to watch the ad than if we actually got on TV because we didn't have a huge budget. We were buying fringe time slots and and we wouldn't have gotten too much uh play on it. But because we were censored, all of a sudden a huge percentage of the Canadian people actually saw the spot and it it created a backlash. So why of all the levers that you could pull, why go straight for advertising? What makes advertising such a potent political force? [snorts] Well, of course, in those days, that was before the internet and and and basically [clears throat] TV was by far the most powerful social communications medium of of of the time. Uh but not only that, uh when I I I lived for a few years in Japan and [clears throat] uh in Japan, I had my own company. It was a and I worked together with the advertising companies there in in Tokyo and and I I knew all those ad guys and and and and I I learned about the power of of of how you build a brand and and how especially spots 15 and 30 second even 7 and 1 half second spots on TV can can capture the public imagination. Did that experience sort of uh convince you that advertising was the enemy and maybe a tool that you could use uh to your own ends? >> Well, not really the enemy. I mean, I I found out that advertising is one of the most powerful forces in the world. You know, this is if you want to get elected or if you want to get a message across or if you want to say something politically or launch a campaign, then then a 15-second spot on TV reaching just the right kind of audience that can make a huge difference that can tip the balance in in any debate. Uh so but but uh but at the same time I found out that there are strangely ethically ambivalent people you know they you know they would have a a tobacco ad for for Philip Morris or whatever they're trying to introduce some tobacco brand into Japan and and I would say to them hey you know why are you doing this? You don't we all know that it's it's creating uh cancer and and and you're trying to sort of now introduce cancer into into Japan. you know, what the hell are you guys doing? And they said, "Oh, Ka, Kala, don't worry about it. You know, let the client worry about that, you know, you know, our job is just to sort of come up with the most powerful way to to get their message across." So, so they were they were sort of ethically neutral types. And so, I I liked the power of what they were doing and I loved their creativity, which was sometimes I just blew me away with the the the subtle ways that they were able to get the message across. But uh but ethically bad people, >> well, you would call them ethically neutral. I would call them nihilist, but uh you know, no need to split hairs, >> but but they have they're real human beings, you know, and and they have their thing and I think they're like other people who work for large corporations, you know, they do their job. They think they're doing a good job. and the fact that on some larger level their corporation [clears throat] is doing some really ugly bad things, you know, uh I think we live in a world of that kind of ambivalence. >> So what you were doing, what you've been doing at Adbusters, um you know, running these these counter ads, um is that what you would call culture jamming? >> Yeah. Well, that's something that we started doing in the first few years of our existence and and it it's the it it culture jamming was a term that suddenly exploded and all of a sudden uh the young people at that time they who felt like the the system they were living in wasn't right they felt like culture jamming was the answer and but but yeah culture jamming was was [clears throat] basically a term that that we introduced and uh and I guess we yeah I still call myself a culture jammer >> [snorts] >> But these days I I think of myself more as a as sort of a cultural revolutionary and I like to think of a of of I like to sort of zoom out and and and ask the question, you know, what do we need to do to survive the 21st century? That's the real question I'm trying to answer now. >> What were some examples of some of your favorite or most memorable culture jams from those early days? What are some some vivid examples for people who may not know about it? Well, I think that uh we started this uh day, this this buy nothing day uh [clears throat] and we created a a 30-cond spot that that that pointed out that uh that we in North America, we consume too much. which we consume, you know, five times more than a than a guy in India and 10 times more than a guy in China and and and and and we have to stop and and this and we tried to buy air time for that on CNN and a few other stations and and and and and somehow uh this idea at that time questioning consumption was was anathema like like you even now I guess you can't really speak back against consumption like consumption what are you trying to do destroy the economy? or whatever. But uh [clears throat] and uh yeah, that was our biggest jam. This we we we were the first people who said consumption re let's rethink consumption and and asking the question, are you consuming too much? And maybe you want to experience what it feels like not to buy anything for 24 hours and find out how addictive consumption really is. uh like and we found out that on on on buy nothing day uh people just couldn't get through the day not even one day without being able to sort of buy a Mars bar or buy something else. So yeah so anyway that was our biggest con that's the one I appreciated the most. You said a minute ago um that these days you think of yourself less as a jammer, culture jammer and more as a cultural revolutionary trying to figure out how the hell to survive in the 21st century. Tell me more about that. Um tell me more about your your politics and where you are now and what you think >> we have to do. >> Yeah. Well, culture jamming was a a lot of fun and and it was great at that time, you know, to to fight back against the power of corporations that were increasingly growing more powerful and taking over uh the way we live and the way we eat and the way we drive and the way we everything we do. Um, but ultimately it didn't feel like it was enough. uh because uh you know all of a sudden the the big the big moment for me I guess was when when I suddenly woke up to the fact that yeah we're now in a at a time when our consumption is actually creating putting carbon into the atmosphere and actually heating up the planet. And if we keep on doing that and the things get too hot, you know, then then this could actually mean the end of of of the human race. It it it feels like this experiment of ours on planet Earth was suddenly in existential uh crisis. All of a sudden now we had to answer the question of of of how does how does humanity survive through the 21st century if we can't stop pushing the carbon into the atmosphere and if we can't change maybe the the the the the global financial architecture or if we can't shift the the paradigm of of of economic science or if we can't do some of the big heavy lifts you know that we have to pull off, you know, to to to actually survive as as a as as a as a people, you know, on planet Earth, then then then nothing else makes sense, right? All of a sudden, now it became a much more serious project of of of somehow heaving politics itself into a into a new kind of a direction. It's almost like like we were thinking in terms of well well what has the political left actually done? [ __ ] all really. What what's the political right then? Not all that much, you know. What is all this voting for the donkey or voting for the the the the elephant? What what is what is all this tweedle dumb tweed politics actually achieving? Are they actually dealing with the the systemic changes that need to happen for us to make it through the 21st century? No. These political parties are are totally bankrupt. They don't know what they're doing. And what we need is a whole new kind of politics that that jumps over the the old bodies, you know, the dead bodies of the old left and right and and starts thinking about a new kind of politics where we're not left, we're not right. we're thinking about how to how to make our way into a future that that is uh that works, you know, and and and to me that's that's that's the sort of a um that's the sort of mindset that we all have to get into now if we're actually going to uh avoid, you know, uh going into a a situation, you know, in five or 10 years time where it's going to be too damn hot to even walk out in the middle of summer because it's it's so hot and and and and catastrophic events. are happening all the time and the sea is rising and and and and and [clears throat] the coral is dying and and and basically our whole our whole planetary system this whole experiment of ours on planet Earth just basically crashes. Do you think that the the system we have late stage consumer capitalism or whatever you want to call it, do you think that this system is fundamentally broken and and therefore something that has to be dismantled and replaced? Do you think we are beyond reform? In other words, >> I think that it's the current system that we live in is is totally [ __ ] up. Yeah, I I I definitely believe that and I've been thinking about it for for years and years and years. It's not an conclusion I came to easily. But uh but I don't think that we need some sort of a revolution, you know, that throws the old out and guillotines all the CEOs and and somehow puts on something totally new. I think that uh that we have to start brainstorming about what are the the deep down ideas what are the fundamental changes that need to happen if if for us to have a future and I think we've we've sort of zeroed in on half a dozen of them uh and uh if we can if we can actually uh take some of those uh what I call meta memes these these big ideas and if we can actually change our communication system and and and and change surveillance capitalism and and get rid of the the mind lords. And if we can institute a a true cost market, you know, that tells the ecological truth and if if we can uh come up with a new relationship with corporations where we the people put corporations back in their box rather than putting us in their box. I I don't disagree with your diagnosis, but obviously the question I keep asking myself is how how do we do that? What is the path there? >> Well, who knows? The the future is always up for grabs. Uh anything could happen. We could suddenly find life on another planet and have some sort of a spiritual awakening on planet Earth. Or or maybe God knows, you know, maybe a a religious leader will suddenly come up and and uh Jesus type character who suddenly makes us think differently about what it means to be alive on planet Earth or or or maybe Gen Z will suddenly get fired up because because life becomes intolerable. All of a sudden, you know, life becomes I mean, things are pretty hopeless now. And a lot of uh a lot of Gen Z, especially in the rich countries of the world, I mean, especially the men, the boys, I mean, they they're really feeling hopeless now. If if uh if the situation becomes so hopeless, then I think the moment will be ripe for a kind of a an explosion of the mind. Uh so it's very easy to say that oh well you know what you're saying is you know it's idealistic and it's a little crazy and you're talking about magic and and and you know when I passed some of this stuff by I passed some of the stuff by Bill McKibben you know and he said oh ka true cost markets that's just a a talking point it'll never happen you know u but I think that as the planet heats as the the life on as as things get really bad I think the moment will be ripe for for some kind of a a global revolution, hopefully a nonviolent one. >> Well, let me just push on you a little bit and really against my own intuitions because I I'm I do share a lot of your um your concerns and I hear you, man. I really hear you. But also, right, in so many ways, the world is a better place than it's ever been. less poverty, less suffering, lower child mortality rates, more resources, a revolution in clean energy. We've had Bill McKibben on the show recently to talk about that. We are still a million miles from perfect, don't get me wrong, but we're probably always going to be a million miles a million miles from perfect. I mean, are things really that hopeless and and catastrophic? Well, I think that uh here in uh uh in North America and in the in you know the one the rich one billion the affluent 1 billion people on the planet we still have it pretty good you know the for us the [ __ ] hasn't hit the wall yet you know uh but uh but I I when I was young I traveled for three or four years around the world and and and and I can and I have a feeling that in you know in Nepal and in Madagascar and in Thailand and and And in a lot of other countries in the world, basically the the poor, the not so rich, 7 billion people on the planet, I think life for them is really harsh. It's scary and it's getting worse by the day. Uh and uh even though on some sort of a if you zoom right out and you say, "Oh, hasn't poverty actually got better? And haven't we got all these medical breakthroughs and haven't we done all this?" I think it's all true. what you say is true, but nonetheless, uh, that is like scratching. You have a monkey on your back and the monkey is scratching your your itch. What's really happening is that we're we're in a sort of a doomsday scenario where the the planet is heating up and our leaders are doing nothing about it. We we've sort of given up on on stopping our carbon emissions, especially with Trump in power now and and leading the the charge. uh and uh and our global financial system is is is totally bankrupt with a with a trillion dollars of of of money makes money makes money kind of stuff floating around the internet every day. And and and I have a feeling that that despite the fact that in some ways life is getting better in another way if you things are getting really dangerous now and we're in a doomsday scenario and if we don't do something about it then we're going to spiral into a long dark age. I I think that we're at the we're slowly spiraling into a long dark age that could last thousands of years. >> You might be right. I think deep deep down I definitely think you are right that there's a a misalignment between our actual interest as human beings on the planet and the incentives driving our institutions. But I I honestly don't know if you're right that the system is going to collapse soon, which is something you do say in the book and you're kind of saying here. I mean, do you ever think that maybe you underestimate the adaptability of this thing to just keep lumbering along and and course correcting just enough to not die? >> I think that uh like uh I think this is sort of the the first world perspective that you're giving me. I think you're this is the way it feels you know right here in Vancouver or in New York or wherever you are. Um but you know recently if you look at the news recently then in Nepal and in Madagascar and in in in Thailand and in a whole bunch of other countries uh there were many revolutions. There were young people who just literally couldn't take the degradation of their lives anymore and they rose up and they they burnt their parliament houses and and and and and they try to pull off revolutions in their countries. And when I look at the the devastation that the that the climate change is causing every every every day now it's like it feels like like like in country after country all over the world things are just getting getting dramatically worse all the time. I I I don't think that we're going to be able to model our way out of this. I think that we that for us to actually have any kind of a future, we have to stop thinking that yeah, let's just ignore it. It's fine. It's, you know, it's going to be no long, you know, let's just not worry about it. Let's somehow we'll muddle through. I don't think we're going to muddle through. I think we're heading for for a doomsday scenario. I think that we're spiraling into a long dark age. And the sooner we wake up to that devastating fact, the fact that this uh human experiment of ours on planet Earth is now crashing, the sooner we wake up to that fact, the the the the the quicker we'll be able to to come up with the big ideas, the metamemes, and change our global system in some way that is truly sustainable. >> So, to the the Gen Zers that are watching or listening to this, um since they're going to have to save our asses, uh what do you want them to do? I want them to pack up and go to to Nepal. I want them to pack up and travel around the world a little bit and find out what life is really like in the rest of the world. I want them to stop their doom scrolling and stop their their their their their hopelessness and stop their all that sort of culture jam culture not jamming culture negativity that they're in right now. I want them to stop arguing about which toilet you're allowed to go into. And I want them to to go and find out what life is really like and and then to become a true warrior for a future that computes. The Gen Z in places like Nepal is a quite a different kind of an animal, political animal compared to the Gen Z here in America or Canada. >> I very much agree with your diagnosis of consumer culture [snorts] and the ways it alienates us, the ways that it numbs us. And I can see, especially as I get older, how easy it is to accept things as they are, to just acclimate to the culture. Um I guess the question here is do you think it's helpful even necessary to judge people or do you think it's more important to focus on the systems and the institutions and have sympathy for individual consumers who are as a matter of fact part of the problem but they're also conditioned by the culture in which they're raised. >> Yeah. Well, you know, I think that uh >> I know it's a tough question. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's sort of a like I have a feeling that uh especially on the left, you know, we sort of in a in a culture now where you have to be nice, you know, you you can't sort of attack people head on. You you can't uh you you can't do uh you have somehow have to respect the other human being and so on. But but I think that uh if if for somebody like me who really truly believes that we're at the early stages of a spiral into a really bad place, I think it's time to to change the the the aesthetic of how we even speak, you know, like I think it's time for us to sort of come up with a sort of a [ __ ] it all language, you know, like to to say, look, we're in, you know, this human experiment of ours on planet Earth is in mortal danger, and we have to say it like it is. We have to learn to be more direct. We we we have to uh you know if if you think that the the Gen Z is really [ __ ] up, then then you have to be able to say it to them in a way that that that it's like like you really mean it, you know, and instead of pussyooting around and and somehow expecting that that that you have to live up to the this idea of being a nice guy and and and and and not pissing. Anyway, I believe in in saying it like it is now. And whatever few years I have left in my life, I'm going to speak a sort of [ __ ] it all language that that that exudes the what I believe in. And and what I believe in is that that we need to fundamentally change a hell of a lot of things and we better get used to it and wake up to it. >> I mean, do you think there aren't plenty of people saying that now? And maybe and the problem isn't that no one's saying it, it's that no one's listening. It's that to your point earlier, we're too busy [ __ ] streaming Netflix all night and tweeting. >> I think uh there's a lot of talk, you know, uh and I think there's a lot of people who believe, you know, roughly what I'm saying perhaps. And but the problem is that uh that in our culture right now, there's too much talk and not enough action, you know. So, uh so we we we you know, a lot of people are able to discuss this thing, I guess, the way we're doing it right now. But but uh but how do you then if you really believe that uh that some some metamoric transformations have to happen in this world then you have to ask yourself how do we pull it off you know so for example uh recently we had this 7 million people go out and do the no kings thing and and and from my perspective it was a a total disaster you know it was it was totally it was totally reactive you know these seven billion went out and they didn't have a vision of their own They they didn't they didn't tell people what they stood for. Uh they basically went out and pointed the finger at Donald Trump and said, "Hey man, you're a bad man. You're a king and we don't like you." So what did that achieve? What we should have done instead of seven instead of having 2,500 protests all around the country. But what we should have had is 250,000 small brainstorming sessions around uh the country where 5 10 20 people get together and ask themselves what do we need to do to have a future that computes and if we had 250,000 people do uh 250,000 brainstorming sessions like that then something will percolate up from there and that we can reach a point in a few weeks or a few months time when we know what we stand for we know what the big ideas are that we're willing to fight for and then we go out and protest and say something positive. We we tell the people of of of America what we believe in. We stand for something instead of this reactive [ __ ] that happened during No Kings. >> Well, what is in the way? I mean, I take your point that too much of politics now is just negation. It's just saying no to [ __ ] >> especially on the left. >> What is standing in the way of that? What is standing in the way of that positive political project? Is it we don't we lack a shared story? We don't have a like a some kind of coherent ideology around which to to organize. What is in the way? Why can't we do that? Or why haven't we, I should say? >> I don't know. I honestly don't know. I've been asking myself that question for years and I don't really know. I think that uh I think that surveillance capitalism has dullled our senses. it has uh snuffed out some of our empathy and and you know we hear about uh 20,000 uh bodies of children being ripped apart in Gaza and and somehow it's kind of abstract. It's it's uh it doesn't quite compute, you know. We say, "Oh, somehow it may be okay, you know, and but it's not okay." Like, you know, to to to to rip apart the the bodies of of 20,000 children is not okay. So, so yeah, we need more people who who who have that who have the power to sort of stand up against against uh horrible injustices that are happening right now in not just in in in in Palestine but uh but in Sudan and and in a lot of other places and and we have to wake up to the fact that it's our overconumption, our decadent ways in of the the one rich billion people of the world. is our decadent ways that have created a lot of this this this this suffering that's happening all around the world. Yeah. So, we need some we need to wake up. I don't know how to wake people up. I mean, I I write books and I do stuff and whatever, but but something has to wake us up, you know, and [clears throat] uh and I think if if if something spiritual like a new Jesus or whatever doesn't come up and and wake us up, then then maybe the sheer pain of living in a world where life is getting tougher and tougher and tougher day after day after day and gets to the point where you just can't take it anymore and then you're ready to stand up, wake up one morning and and you're ready to fight. Well, I don't know about a new Jesus, but culture jamming is certainly was the thing to wake people up. And you know, you you were doing mimetic warfare before it was a thing, but you know, now the media environment has has caught up with you in lots of ways. Everything is memes now. I mean, memes, that is how ideas move through the culture. And you know looking through those old adbuster issues they feel very modern. I mean they feel like they are of the internet age but but Adbusters was born in the old media world where it was a lot easier to shock people with images. But now we are drowning in images all the time. What is culture jamming 2.0? >> Yeah. Well I think that culture jamming is still alive but I don't call it culture jamming anymore really. I now call it meme warfare. I think that culture jamming has more to meme warfare >> and that we >> what's the difference? The difference is that culture jamming in the old days happened in a physical environment and now cult jamming happens in the in the virtual environment and so it's it's now a cult jamming is now a meme war and I think that we have to learn I think the the people who who really want to be revolutionaries the people who really want to sort of become effective activists I think we have to learn how to become meme warriors you know and and and at the moment I have a feeling that that governments and political parties and especially uh mega corporations they have learned how to play the meme war. They know how to fight the meme war. Whereas we the people are still at the early stages of not quite having figured out how to how to fight the meme war and how to win. Uh and I think that there are a few tantalizing like for example the the one dozen kind of mini revolutions that have sprung up recently in in Nepal and and in in in Bangladesh and in Madagascar and and and seven or eight other places. I mean here all of a sudden Gen Z was doing something on Tik Tok and then they moved on to Discorder and and then they also talked to each other in the physical world and I think they cracked the code. I think I think those in those 12 countries that have recently had a mini revolution. The the Gen Z has actually cracked the code of of how to win the the the the meme war, how to win the planetary endgame. Uh so I I think that uh what has happened recently in those those uh poor countries, you know, those mini revolutions, I think they they give me hope. >> What I mean, do you do you see examples of people in the states or or movements engaging in mimetic warfare in a way that you think is effective and and something to to model? No, at the moment what I see happening in the most of the like in Canada and in Australia and in the United States, I mean to me it feels uh horribly ineffective. I mean we're not talking about the big ideas. We're not uh we're not fighting for the the huge heavs. We're not launching third political parties or or or trying to implement two cost markets or or trying to shift economic paradigms or or or or trying to sort of vanquish the mind lords. We're just I don't know. We're just sort of in some egoistic trance. um just somehow uh scrolling away and and and and being totally caught up in the surveillance capitalist uh panopticon and and and uh very little positive change is actually happening, you know. So there there needs to be some sort of a moment of truth, you know, that that morphs us into that next level. >> Support for the show comes from Shopify. Every thriving business starts with a series of what if questions. 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[music] The the difficult question for any political activist now and we're kind of circling around it is, you know, how do you persuade people? How do you grow your movement? I mean, that that's that is fundamentally the game. And memes mutate a lot faster now because of the the pace online. And what they seem to do best isn't persuade. They seem to be much better at just signaling inroup identity. But you know, you want the opposite, right? I mean, you want to cut through the tribal [ __ ] Have you has anyone figured out how to do this in the digital world reliably, how to do ads without feeding the engagement algos in the worst way possible? Well, you know, maybe given the current surveillance system that we have that's based on half a dozen of these platforms that uh that are sort of run by the algorithms of maybe under that system, what you're asking for is impossible. Maybe the first thing we need to do is to dismantle surveillance capitalism itself. Maybe it's impossible under the current surveillance capitalist system for us human beings to actually talk to each other with with those algorithms being the filter that decides, you know, how we talk to each other and what gets through and what doesn't. And maybe we need to sort of come up with a the first big idea, which is possibly maybe something like a a surveillance tax where we say to the mind lords, okay, you want to spy on me, you want to take my personal information. Okay. Uh, first of all, you have to ask my permission if and and and uh and to do that and and if I do give you my permission, then maybe I want to charge you a fraction of a cent every time you do it. And uh and all of a sudden to come up with a some sort of a cataclysmic kind of idea that puts a curveball into the whole uh surveillance capitalist system. Maybe it's only that moment when we can really start talking to each other again and really start persuading each other again. Because at the moment it feels like whatever we do under the current algorithms of the mind lords nothing can actually happen. The transition or the path from mimemetic warfare to actual power and change is always interesting to me. And you know, you talk about it in in the book in the context of Occupy, right? You were very instrumental in the creation of that movement. It started in many ways as a meme that that the ballerina on the bull and that became a a camp and then it became a worldwide thing, but it it never quite translated into institutional change. Looking back on that, what was the lesson for you? That that the establishment is too entrenched to reform, that there's too much polarization, too much surveillance, too much control of the media, too much whatever. Well, well, you know, I I was politicized in 1968 when a a small group of people in in the Latin Quarter of Paris uh suddenly had a little uprising there and and and and and that caught the imagination of the world and and and and it spread to to thousands of of campuses and and other youth groups around the world and and in 1968 for the first time I saw the possibility that that world revolution really is possible. It is possible for for the young people of the world to suddenly rise up and say, "We don't like what these old fogies are doing. We don't like, you know, we want to have a new world. We don't want to live in the old world. We want a new world, and we're going to pull it off." And I and and they failed 50 years later. Occupy Wall Street was a sort of like a replay of that where some some sort of a you know, we we sort of sparked it and we said, "Okay, let's go and occupy this iconic heart of global capitalism in in Wall Street." and and it happened and and and and suddenly um occupations spread all around the world. At the height of Occupy Wall Street, there was over 2,000 occupations all around the world. And again, winter came and we didn't quite have our memes together. We we we we were fighting against something, but we didn't actually articulate the big things that we stood for. Same as the no kings. Uh and now I believe that the situation is much more serious and and we have a third crack at world revolution. Now I think that the the Gen Z and maybe the generation that comes after Gen Z, they will they will be successful. Third time lucky. I think that there's going to be a a global uprising uh first of all in a bunch of little countries like Nepal and Madagascar and so on. And eventually it'll happen again, you know, in in in the rich countries as well. And there's going to come a moment, you know, when the young people of the world rise up and and say, "We're not going to make it through on the old order. We need a new world order. We know what the big ideas are. We know what we want to achieve. Here it is. Here's our platform. Let's fight for it." And there's going to be a a world revolution, a nonviolent hopefully nonviolent third revolution that will actually put to put into place all those big ideas without which a future is impossible. >> What gives you hope that the next not necessarily Occupy movement, but but the next anti-corporate movement, anti-power movement, what gives you hope that that might succeed where Occupy failed? >> Well, I think we're learning. I think uh you we made a step forward from 1968 to to to 2011 and and now you know 15 years later I think that we're much more savvy and we know that the stakes are much more serious. We know that this the whole fate of this experiment of ours on planet earth is at stake and I grew up in a in the aftermath of the of the second world war which was the most beautiful 50 years in human history. you know, anything was possible. You know, I went to Japan, launched a company, made a million bucks, you know, and and and uh uh so I'm basically a hopeful guy. I I I I I believe in in the human spirit and and I also believe that the situation is going to get really dire in the next few years. and the combination of things growing really dire and and and being optimistic about the about the power of the human being, you know, I think between those two, uh, I think we're not going to muddle through like you said, but we're going to push our way through. >> Is there anything else you want to say before we get up out of here? >> No, I think I don't know. you've I've enjoyed looking at your smiling face and you've asked some questions that allowed me to to sort of get a few punches in and I I I yeah I enjoyed talking to you. >> This is a real pleasure for me. Um I um I admire the life you live the the commitment and the engagement over so many years. I think you're a real one in that way. Um and I have a lot of respect for that. Um whether we agree about everything or not is beside the point. Um, I appreciate that you you give a [ __ ] Um, and you say what you believe and you've been pretty consistent um, for your entire life as far as I can tell. So, >> I respect that. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. [snorts] >> Hey, thanks for watching. Every week, we bring honest and nuanced conversations about what's happening in culture, tech, and the world of ideas to your video and audio feeds. Episodes of the gray area drop every Monday and Friday on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite listening app. Comment below and let me know what you thought of this conversation. I promise I won't be offended. You can also send us an email at the grey area.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 1800214-5749. And if you enjoy what we do, please help support Vox by joining our community on Patreon at patreon.com/vox. Thanks again.