Marta Havryshko on the Influence of the Far Right in Ukraine (MEDIEOVERVÅKERNE s 4, e 5)

[music] [music] Welcome to a new episode. My name is Terry Hnes and I run the website and YouTube channel Spartus.no and welcome to Los Bulun in Oslo, my regular collaborator here on the program. >> Thank you. >> And a very special welcome to our guest today, Marta Havishka, PhD in history at present assistant professor in Holocaust pedagoguy and anti-semitism studies at Clark University in Massachusetts. We're very happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation. >> It's a pleasure for us. Would you like to take tell us uh a little bit more about your academic background and work motto? So I started my career, my academic career with the study of Ukraine nationalism in inter war period. And my dissertation was not only about Ukraine nationalist, but also about broader Ukraine political spectrum in western Ukraine and how they view basically the rise of neo-Nazis to the power. And then after defending my dissertation in Ukraine in the city of Leviv and Leviv National University, I started to study Ukraine national underground from the gender perspective. I was interested in the Ukraine women in Ukraine underground and I was I had very romantic view because part of my family from my mother's side was involved actually in Ukraine nationalists underground and occupied very high ranking position and I was raised in very nationalistic family with very nationalistic You surround with very heroic myth about Ukraine nationalists on the ground that they were freedom fighters and all they did was very heroic and they sacrificed their life for Ukraine independence and if they killed someone it was collateral damage and they only defended themselves. So um then I started to look for women who participated in this underground movement and when I conducted interviews with them, I discovered very uncomfortable truths about gender based violence, about rape, about sexual harassment, about gender discrimination inside Ukraine and the ground movement, but also outside of this moment and the punishment of women. For example, shamebased punishment of women for sexual so-called sexual collaboration with the enemy men. For example, when men had when women had sexual or romantic relations with enemy men like Polish men or Jewish men or Russian men or men from different political camp like men who supported Soviet Ukraine project, national project or were romantically involved with red army officers or red army soldiers and they were punished by members of Ukraine national initials on the ground. Their hair was cut off. They were beaten and some of them were raped and even killed. And then I started to talk with women who were nurses in Ukraine underground movement and who participated in the attack on Polish villager villagers. And this includes my relatives. >> And I listen to those stories and I didn't even hear about any remorse. They talked about those civilians including elder women, including babies, including women as enemy, enemies of Ukraine people, enemies [clears throat] of Ukraine nation who should be punished. And then I started to publish these stories. And then I started to be partially criticized not only by crazy nationalist but also by my fellow academics. I received anti-semitic threats, anti-Semitic attacks. I received death threats from my colleagues, right? You know, I remember one accident. It was during my work in archive. You know, my colleague said, "Do you remember what members of Ukraine underground did to women like you, the traitors of Ukraine nation? They hang them on the trees in the centers of the villages and they uh didn't allow the villagers to take their bodies down. So it was you know uh the message to the public. Yeah. So you are not allowed to collaborate with the sisters for example. Yeah. Or you will be punished and your family members will be punished. So I was bullied in my academic institution. My salary was uh decreased and was approximately um equal to the salary of cleaning ladies. um it was very difficult for me to conduct my research in this atmosphere and then I started to you know to be more engaged with academic institutions in the west because I couldn't even brace in this in this atmosphere. >> This was before the Russian invasion. >> Yes, it was well before the Russian invasion and then it became e even more harsh, even more difficult to conduct any critical inquiry into Ukraine. um history of 20th century after the Russian invasion because Ukraine many Ukraine scholars believe that they um that their task is not only to to be scholars. It's not enough. They should be Ukraine scholars. They should be Ukraine voices. They should be patriotic scholars. They should fulfill their patriotic duties. Yes. And um when full-scale Russian invasion started in February 2022, there was no second thought for me. And I understood that will that this nationalist atmosphere will even um um increase and I will not survive in this atmosphere especially in Leviv in my city where this uh nationalists on the ground was very strong there and the living memory is still present there and uh I decided to flee my country and I fled with my with my child Ukraine um in 2022, 2 weeks after Russia attacked Ukraine and then I was the short period in Germany. Then I was a wizard professor at Basel University in Switzerland and I had a course about gender and the Russian Ukraine war at Basel University and then I was invited here at Clark University and I started to teach here anti-semitism and racism and courses on Eastern Europe and with strong with strong accent on Eastern U Europe and on uh on Ukraine And um only here uh outside Ukraine I felt this free speech and academic freedom and here I stopped defending myself all all the time and could develop my research and publish freely my articles about involvement of locals in anti-Jewish violence, anti-Polish violence during the Second World War without harming you know national honor of these you know of [snorts] Ukraine people in general. Um and and but still in Ukraine I am deemed I am labeled as a Ukraine traitor as a collaborator because every critical thinking about Ukraine nationalists on the ground um is labeled in this way unfortunately. And there is no room for critical discussion about Ukraine nationals on the ground nowadays due to national memory politics. Um and as you see all these developments even under Zelinski nobody expected this from him. Yeah. because he built uh he built his entire career as a comedian on making fun of all these Ukrainian nationalism on all these leaders of Ukraine nationalism. He made fun of Slav Ukraini Slavini slogan. He made fun of Bandera Malik Shuish and all these guys. His entire career was built on this and I was a water of Zilinski in 2019 and 73% of his waters couldn't expect him 7 years later that he will turn upside down his politics and instead of paying tribute to his grandfather Simeon Zillinski who was a Red Army officer and decorated World War II veteran who fought Nazis. Instead, he will praise Nazi collaborator Andre Melnik and will pay tribute to this Nazi collaborator whose guys were members of auxilary police under Nazis who were hunting Jews in hiding who were guarding ghats and camps in Nazi occupied Ukraine who convoy Jews to the killing sites. es and participated together with Germans in the killing of Jews. And Melik Andre Melik, the same own leaders leader who was praised by Zalinski last week supported the creation of Vafan's Galatian division division in 1943. Yes. On this >> here is here is the post on on X a few days ago. M Silansky kneels before the grave of a Nazi collaborator Melnik. >> Yes, Melnik. And this is iconic photo of Zilanski in cave uh on 25th May when he's paying tribute and kneeling before the grave of Nazi collaborator Andre Melik. And I must say that Andre Melik was brought to Ukraine not by President Yusenko who was obsessed with you know history of Ukraine nationalist on the ground and the worded hero of Ukraine to Stefan Bandera iconic fascist hero of Ukraine uh own yeah it wasn't President Prohena uh who gave the title of freedom fighter to all members of Ukraine nationalists on the ground. But Jewish guy from Kuurik who was raised in secular Soviet, very Soviet family with very Soviet identity based on the idea that Soviet army soldiers were fighting with guys like Melik and his subordinates on the myth that They um were fighting and it wasn't only myth. Yeah, we it was very tragic history of Ukraine that one part of Ukraine was fighting another part of Ukraine. They were rivals. They were in different camps, members of western Ukraine and members of eastern Ukraine. They were in different armies. We know about the these clashes in fightings between Red Army soldiers and members of insurgent army. And this guy who was praising his entire life red army soldiers including his grandfather Simeon Zillinski. Now he's praising Nazi collaborator um Andre Malik. That's why when I saw this picture, I was just terrified and I was ashamed >> as a Jewish as a Polish. Yeah. Because my grand great grandmother is Polish, as a Ukraine, as a Holocaust scholar and um World War II scholar and as um scholar of the Second World War. I was ashamed in so many way. And you know the main question um that is on the table now. Now it comes that country which is constantly saying that we are fighting for freedom and democracy is praising fascist hero whose subordinates were involved in the holocaust. [sighs and gasps] Andre Melnik in his um in his um leaf flats in his claim to his subordinates on on 1st January 1942 said to his subordinates people we should support the new order built by Adolf Hitler in the Europe. We should follow our brothers in Vermacht. And it was after Babin Yar which is the symbol of the Holocaust in the Soviet Union. It was after Babar and the police auxilary police under Nazi in cave and the mayor in cave appointed by Nazi was the member of his fraction of Oun was his guy who was actually executed by Nazis for stealing goods Jewish goods goods from Jews. who were executed >> and his guys after Babing your massacre during which this massacre almost 34,000 Jewish mostly children women and elder were killed in the course of two days at the end of September 1941 his guys mainly guys were hunting Jews in hiding who didn't believe Germans and didn't go to Babany. [snorts] These guys were hunting. And now you know when I hear that there are no Nazis in Ukraine because we have Jewish president, >> it makes me sick to the stomach. motto. We are based in Norway and u the extent of the neo-Nazi influence in Ukraine is being severely downplayed in this country. So Norway is a major contributor to keeping the war in Ukraine going and our media refuses to address this issue. >> Yes, exactly. And the main reason why western media and western politicians and western think tanks and commentators refuse to address this issue is um because they afraid to admit complicity. After 2022, they became completely silent on this issue because they train neo-Nazis, they finance them, they provide diplomatic backing, they provide media support to them, they uh provide this narrative about depolitization, duralization of them. So they are complicit all of them politicians media experts they all are complicit in this and now if you uh admit that those guys are in Ukrainian military actually and it's not one it's not two it's not even thousand of them it's tens of thousands of them nowadays when I wrote wrote an article about entire German volunteer corpse integrated entirely in Ukraine armed forces entirely. There was no response any response from German officials. any response and what is interesting German journalist who were trying to publish similar articles investigative journalist their editors refused to give a permit on publishing this article why because Mr. Mers, Chancellor Mers is pretending and all those politicians that there are no Nazis in Ukraine, but we know their names. We know their names. We know where they are. I name the brigade where they are. And >> can we can can we show can can we show the viewers uh your article from today published today? >> Yes. Yes. Statecraft, you have written the main article today's issue. Ukraine's military has a real Nazi problem is the title. >> Yes. >> To deconstruct Russian propaganda. Western elites have tried to hide the fact that there are third Reich extremists among Kiev's ranks. And I believe it's a very important article because after 2022, mainstream media refused um to pay attention to this problem. They downplay this problem. They deny this problem. They label this as a Russian propaganda, Kremlin propaganda. They said that if you raise this question, you basically f fool um uh Putin uh Putin's this uh claim about the denassification of Ukraine and the his aim that he pronounced in 2022. Of course, Putin will use all those, you know, problems with neo-Nazis in Ukraine and will instrumentalize this in his uh [clears throat] in his political to reach his political goals. But we can't deny that this problem is real. And I'm talking about this problem for several years already. And no one is paying attention to this. And this problem as a result is growing. And at the beginning of 2022, we had only, you know, uh this problem was smaller, let's say. Now it's bigger. And [clears throat] now we had more and more units which adopt hate symbols openly. recently. Maybe our viewers know that we had another white supremacist attack in San Diego uh and three Muslim uh Muslim uh men were killed by two terrorists and both of them had black son symbols and SS bolts. So, do you know that Ukraine several Ukraine units openly use Black Sun symbols as their official official insignia? Official. So, so I'm constantly asking who the hell is given permission in Ukraine army in Ukraine military to use these highly recognized among neo-Nazi groups in different countries symbol to use as official insignia. Do you know that one of the most elite brigade in Ukraine armed forces has the name Luftvafa and used the Nazi eagle precisely the same shape that was used by Nazi Luftvafa from 35 to 45. the same. They just they just opened encyclopedia of the third dry and take the same eagle and they proudly displayed this openly on their patches. They introduced merchandise to collect money and they put this on, you know, pants, on some um caps, on other stuff, on t-shirts and they distribute this and you know people and it's so normalized in Ukraine that it's everywhere and parents are, you know, buying this stuff for the their children and they are proud of this and I am asking those parents do you know the meaning of this symbol did you skip history classes actually what is going on in this country one of the military using uh military unit units in Ukraine armed forces is using the le vanger assess unit symbol they must notorious criminal units responsible for for wishes were war crimes. And I blame personally our chief commander Zalinski for all this which is going on in Ukraine military. I blame him personally because he's responsible for all this what is happening in front of his eyes and it's not only about the heroes of UPA. Yeah. Because uh with UPA they can talk about the legacy of their anti-service struggle and they have this narrative that they are symbols of struggle for Ukraine independence and the enemy is the same in Moscow. Okay, but why the hell are you celebrating Nazi collaborators? Why the hell are you using SS balls? We have the medi unit and this medi unit is using a ss balls as official symbol and the says motor >> as official symbol. >> This is uh this it seems like our worst suspicions come true. Uh some days ago I talked with a Norwegian friend that used to spend lot time some time in Ukraine before the war and even then he said it was quite common to see see swastikas around and when he commented that people sort of wouldn't talk about it but that was got the impression that it was pretty common already back then some 10 15 years ago and um I al been thinking that Putin or Russia probably are um what do you call it? Um telling it it's worse than um really this but [laughter] but um as I say um this is re really really bad and uh I think are are you on the list the the mir list? Yes. >> Yeah. >> Actually, yeah. I I was put on Mut's web hit list um last year uh in January 2025 and they blame me for humanitarian aggression against Ukraine. And the man um proves they even put my academic article about gender- based violence inside um uh um inside. Yeah. Meritt war inside. >> Perhaps perhaps you have to explain what this uh what what this hit list it is uh it was created um I believe back in 2014. So this is a extremist list or extremist website. It is believed by many human rights organizations that uh it has links with security service of um Ukraine. M >> and uh uh so the aim of this website is to find the enemies in quoting marks enemies of Ukraine state and provide the information about them and what uh and about their deeds against Ukraine state. So recently actually the leader the head of Yadvashm uh Israel memorial center was put also on Merit Wararees after he condemned Yadvashm condemned the Melik uh reburial. And the problem with this list that uh many people actually on this list were um as a result they were executed. So they are hunted by Ukraine extremist and neo-Nazis. So by putting person on this um hit list, you are putting target on on on the person and basically um those people are hunted, those people are bullied and they are ostracized and marginalized. When I was put it on this um on this hit list, I noticed that many Ukrainian media started making reference to this uh website while making articles about me and they said you know she's also on merit wars. >> It was for them like a proof that I am a traitor. Yeah. Because in Ukraine it's a respected side. Despite the fact that US department of state every single year in their report about human rights in Ukraine are making reference to this website stating its connection to security service and ask Ukraine government to shut down this website because it's dangerous because it's extremist website and is dangerous to the people because it put in danger many many people who are in this blacklist. basically scholars, uh, journalists, those who tend to critically think about developments in Ukraine, about politics, about society, about memory politics, about everything what is going on in Ukraine. [gasps] Um, >> even Henry, even Henry Kissinger was on the list. >> Yes. So many people >> and when he died of natural courses, he was taken off the list. >> Yeah. And and actually the wife of the list >> of so he was taken off the list after he died. And I remember I think also Roger Waters is on the list. And there's al also a couple of Norwegians on the list. And uh um yeah, of course Daria Dugginina, she was killed. >> Yeah. And she was killed. and Bana Ukraine uh Ukraine commentator was killed by those people who now threaten me as well uh with >> even children at least I've heard >> yeah and even children for example who cross border illegally but you know in the situation of the war many people are using different ways just to escape um for example territory of Ukraine or occupation territory and they are forced to use different remedies is but those people are put on on the list and uh it's crazy it's crazy how this site operates and uh how this information is used by different neo-Nazi groups and extremist groups to to commit terrorist attacks and um assassination attempts against people. That's why when I was put on this list, I decided um not to visit Ukraine anymore >> because for me uh it means that I now nowadays I am a target for for real target for uh neo-Nazis. >> So now you are in the US and you told me that you you have a working working visa now but you will seek for political asylum. Um I yeah I I plan to seek political asylum because I I don't believe that uh I will survive in Ukraine because this campaign of of bullying organized by um by bloggers connected to administration Zalinski administration and neo-Nazis that are subordinated to Zilinski administration that are hunting me and constant is constantly threatening me. I [snorts] don't believe that I will survive in Ukraine and I don't believe that I will survive in Europe because the position of European politicians nowadays is to turn a blind eye on what what is going on in Ukraine. Why? Because they depend on Ukraine man power. They want to bleed Russia with Ukraine lives. Nobody wants to send their sons and their daughters to fight in Ukraine. That's why they are ready to me to make deal even with the devil. Those are basters. But they are their basters. It it like it's similar to the period of the cold war when CIA and MI6 was cooperating with um former Nazi collaborators is the same nowadays. They don't care about Nazi ideology of um of those fighters in Ukraine. The they unless they are fighting. So unless they are fighting Russia, it's okay for them. They will back them. They will arm them. They they will invite them to Chapman House security forums, Munich Security Forum, uh Stanford University, other Ivy League University and pretend they are freedom fighters and you know they are fighting for freedom and democracy. We already saw this with you know Afghanistan and other we already saw [snorts] this. So I believe Europe is raising monster and will have later a big security problem in Europe in their in their doorstep. >> I can tell you how this works in Norway. I can tell you how this works in Norway, Martr, because there is a big white washing campaign about this right-wing extremist from Ukraine. We have a a leader of the parliament's uh foreign and defense committee uh conservative politicians, Peter Thrish. He has been 16 times to Ukraine uh delivered vehicles and drones. uh and he he even filming when he's in in um front in eastern Ukraine training with Ukrainian soldiers. But the point is that he has invited uh OS of people to the Norwegian parliament for meetings. So they they sit in the Norwegian parliament and discuss drone warfare and they signed agreements to cooperate with Norwegian and Ukraine co military cooperations with the OS people >> but it's denied it's denied >> yeah this legitimizing you know I was struck um recently last last week it was in Odessa it was black sea security forum and couple senators were invited and congressman was invited to this Black Sea Blumenal and Kelly, Senator Kelly were invited and among speakers we had Russian prominent Russian neo-Nazi neon Nazi um Denise Nikitin whose nickname is White Rex White Rex and whose entry to Shagen zone entire Shanken zone is banned because of his extremist activity and he is respected among all including nor in Norway neo-Nazis and white supremacist and he was you know invited and he was given speech as an expert in this war and all this and all this you know and senators were democrats you know and they were sharing the same platform with this neo Nazi guy who is celebrating Hitler's birthday openly and whose guys are you know selling t-shirts with vafan says you know uh images this is how they legitimize the neo-Nazis they bring them to this respected weep events on security with disrespected guys with rich guys in this, you know, expensive costumes, you know, and brought and bring these, you know, neo-Nazis and present them as freedom fighters and everything is okay and nobody's, you know, nobody even is raising their voice and nobody's objecting and, you know, it it's crazy what is going on nowadays. It's unbelievable and this [clears throat] is happening everywhere. Like recently, Timothy Snder, respected professor, expert on World War II and the Holocaust in Ukraine, was greeting Ukraine new Nazi. McGregor, his uh his s his nickname from a rooted um unit, the sus brigade at Yale University. And this guy McGregor openly making photos with Walangel, you know, this Nazi symbol. And his best friend is a neonazi who escaped from Russia just to escape prison for hate for hate crimes. And his best friend he has a sebastic chest. And it's unbelievable. And these days, Timothy Snider is completely silent about all these developments with Melik with Heroes of Up with everything. He's silent with white tracks on Black Sea forum. He's silent. Why? You are an expert. You're a most respected scholar on Ukraine. Why are you silent on all these development? You are screaming about fascism in America. What about fascism in Ukraine? What about fascist in Ukraine? I'm at forces >> the same in Norway. >> This is our respected scholars legitimizing neo-Nazis in Ukraine. They are doing this >> in in Norway >> by their even by their screaming silence. >> Yeah. In Norway too there are so-called experts on fascism. I I I I can name Yunas Bals is is the so-called expert on fascism written books about it and stuff and very supportive of Ukraine but he never speaks of fascism in in Ukraine and u and actually Norwegian media could talk a little about it before 22 but now it's totally science silence this last um Sinski was greeted with in in the parliament in Norway two times. >> He was saw >> standing standing ovation in >> but now he now that he celebrates war crime wartime criminals not >> before we started before we started the recording m you talked about how shocked you are at actually the western left side. >> Yeah. the socialist in in in in the west, they're all the same. They also support this uh website. >> Exactly. Even among my friends, we I I have arguments with many of my leftist friends who actually buy this propaganda, war propaganda. I must say that Zalinski um Zilinski is a product of PR is a product of this entertaining industry and he knows very well how to do this propaganda and what we see now it's a propaganda he's doing very well all this stuff and they are buying this and they are buying this victim narrative And um yes, Ukraine is the victim, but reality is more complex. Being a victim doesn't mean that Ukraine must be completely immune from the criticism. We must help Ukraine to move forward. [gasps] If the criticism is absent, Ukraine will move to the authoritarian authoritarian state. Zalinski will concentrate power in its hand will use this money, western money to uh to enrich himself and his friends. And we see this in energy sector, in defense sector, Mida's case, please mind and all these. Please just Google all these scandals in Ukraine. And the most important nowadays um western aid is used for forced mobilization. [clears throat] And I have a call for all these progressive left. Do you want your son, your husband, your loved one taken by force to the when beaten and sent to the kill zone against his will and die for this corrupt government. Just die for nothing. For nothing. for corrupt state that oppress you and put in prison everyone who dare to criticize repressions and corruption. What are we building? Little Russia in the shanka and with Ukraine language. I am against this and many Ukraans are. Ukraine now is open air prison for men. And as we talked before we went on what you're telling now and what also Julia Mendle has been talking about lately used she used to be Celestia's press secretary. >> Yes. What what you and she is telling is a thing that every Ukrainian know but but >> exactly >> but but we we but we in the west shall not know it. >> Exactly. You know couple couple of weeks ago the final point uh about about level of knowledge and about awareness. Couple of weeks ago, I participated in one conference here and um many my colleagues from very prestigious US universities attended Stanford, uh Yale, um um from Los Angeles and other universities. And when I started to talk about force mobilization, their eyes were just like this. And they asked me, "Are you talking about Russia?" And I said, "No, guys. I am talking about Ukraine. Google, just Google busification. You will see thousands of videos. You will see those desperate men who are kidnapped from everywhere who are crying for help, who don't want to die, for nothing, for these capitalists, for merchants of death. It's not their choice and they were so surprised and they are intellectuals >> if they know nothing what we expect from ordinary people from working class people in in >> the problem Mart is that we live in a so-called free society but our media is complete under control of this war uh >> yes >> so >> yes exactly >> so people Even even politicians have a they don't know much what actually happens. They they just read the same uh articles. They see the same uh news and and they believe this war propaganda. >> The black and white version. >> They don't want to know. They don't want they don't want to know because if they know they get they are responsible. >> Exactly. That's why I I really believe in the power of social media. despite of all this you know downsides and yes social media produce you know a lot of hate and and feed you know hate speech and all this stuff. Yes, this is the problem. But due to social media and YouTube our channel like this you know program we at least can challenge this master narrative this you know [sighs] power powerful discourse. We can do something you know to challenge this and to to to tell different story you know because mainstream media and corporate media they tell the story of people in power and people in power >> they are interested in the war you know because it's not their children who are dying in this war >> it's in Ukraine it's a war of poor Ukraine army It's the army of poor like in Russia is the same >> people of political elites they are safe they're enjoying their life and everything okay with them those who are dying are workingass people >> exactly >> on the shame to Norwegian politicians so-called western uh left wing politicians in Norway because they are 100% behind this war and they want to continue war because they want to beat Russia military. They believe >> and I and I and they sacrifice thousands hundred thousands of lives. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Not their own, of course. Not their own lives, but other lives. >> Exactly. It It's my point uh my pointing is the same. Many of those war mongers who want Ukraine to keep fighting, keep keep resisting, >> it's very hypocratic and very cynical position because uh they are doing this with Ukraine lives you know [snorts] and um we lost so many lives and we have so many people who who are wounded who are missing and who are suffering. ing even psychological consequences you know in society it's so obvious it's so obvious Ukraine society is in pain and we will need you know decades to heal this society Ukraine society nowadays is dying and it's so cynical to push this society to continue this bloody and unnecessary war you want to you want more war, go. Just go. Everyone who wants war can go and and and fight. You know, war is is a tragedy. Every every war is a strategy. I I can't understand cheer leaders of of of war. Any war, it's we must avoid wars because you know Ukraine war is a very good example. is already 12 years of war. You know, it's not only, you know, four years, it's already 12 years of war. How many years? You know, economists said that based on their sources, Zilinski is preparing Ukraine for more two or three years of war. >> Yeah. >> It will be devastated land. Devastated land without, you know, without young people. M >> are full of graves and and cemeteries. >> How many how many millions Ukrainians have left the country? And uh it must the official the official number nowadays is 8 millions since 2022 but millions left since 2014. >> So you know Ukraine left USSR uh with 52 millions. Now we have 25 25. We have demographic catastrophe. >> If you want to prolong this war, Ukraine will stop to exist as a nation. It it's funny or rather tragic that even Norwegian politicians are talked about continuing the war until Russia bleeds out, so to speak, but of course Ukraine will bleed out long before Russia >> and Russia and Russia will get help from China, >> North Korea, China. Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. So, >> yeah. line. >> So, um, >> yeah, it's it it's shocking to hear this, uh, what you're saying, Mart, because a Norwegian audience is not used to hear this kind of, uh, facts. I we call it facts >> and >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We will link up your article, today's article about the Nazi influence in the Ukraine army, so our readers can go in and uh, read it ourselves. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. The article is full of links. >> I was trying to put as as much evidence as I can >> because it's very sensitive topic and I know that many people are in denial and will challenge all all these you know statements. So please visit this article read um even if you don't believe in all this just read just yeah >> yeah but it's based so you can't just say it's nonsense it's based on facts >> yeah you're also busy on Facebook so I recommend >> people to >> Yeah yeah yeah my Facebook was deleted several time I previous um by um security service of Ukraine so Yeah, it's a new >> we will recommend our viewers to just follow you on X and on Facebook. >> Yeah, X is much much um uh reliable, let's say, because Ukraine security service can't influence uh X um um easy. >> No. >> Um yeah, so it's much reliable. So please Yeah. follow follow us and yeah I hope that we we will concentrate on on peace and not on on war because now so so many people are they want to this war to continue. Yeah. >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> Thank you very much uh Moto. This is a very interesting meeting for us. >> Thank you so much for organizing this discussion and yeah because I believe it's very important to to challenge this these narratives. >> Yeah, it is. >> Thank you very much and um we'll see you perhaps some other time. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. Thanks a lot. Good luck. >> Thank