Bitcoin's Big Mystery Solved? What a 4-Year Search Found

In the basement of the US Justice Department, there's a file called Fenu Lenu. First name unknown, last name unknown. It's the official government investigation into the creator of Bitcoin. In this episode, Hollywood producer Tucker Tulie and veteran private investigator Tyler Moroni join me to talk about their four-year quest to finish what the government couldn't. We'll discuss their journey, the smoking gun clues that they found, the suspects they ruled out, and the reality of unmasking a legend. And stick around as we also explore the one thing that matters even more than a name. I think the film that Tucker and Tyler made doesn't feel like a hunt, but rather like a tribute to Bitcoin as a gift given to the world. If you are enjoying my content, it would mean a lot to me if you could subscribe to the channel and like my video to support my journey. Thanks a lot. Now, let's dive in to this episode. All right, Tucker Tulie and Tyler Moroni, welcome to Bitcoin for Millennials. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Happy to be here. >> Yeah, nice to have you guys here. Tucker, we met exactly on this day of recording one year ago in uh in Vegas. I don't know how we got connected, but we um we ended up talking about this film that you were making and uh it was almost coming out. I remember when we talked last year and it it took it took a little longer, but along the way you sent me a preview of uh Finding Satoshi and I I remember finishing this documentary uh at like uh 1 1:00 a.m. in the in the in the morning and I and I called you to uh to to tell you that that I I loved it and I think you know there's a lot of ideas around who is Satoshi there's a lot of searches right there's a lot of publications around it etc but and we'll talk about this I I I think this is also a really great tribute to what Bitcoin is right and kind of like the ethos um behind it so uh I'm I'm happy to have you guys here I first kind of wanted to start Tucker I mean you you produced a lot Hollywood films kind of like in this traditional system, right? And for this uh film, you decided to be more like self-distributed. You partnered with Coinbase. Um did did looking into Bitcoin and the decentralization etc. kind of like change your view on on your own industry? Can you share a bit about that? Well, it certainly did on this film. And from the beginning, we were having um debates initially, but I think those quickly turned into we we formed a pretty definitive opinion opinion that we wanted to honor the structure of Bitcoin, right? So, no no one in between um person A and person B. And uh this idea of of being able to get the film direct to the consumer from the people who made the film without someone in between, you know, a big company, you know, um studio, whatever. Felt just more organic to the story we were telling. And um we're really happy that we uh we did it. >> Yeah. And Tyler, you are a um experienced private investigator. You usually look for people who don't want to be found for for a lot of bad reasons, right? Um, how did it feel for you investigating someone who's more like like a ghost but kind of seen as a as a hero globally by a lot of people? Like it's a it's a different angle I I I presume. >> Yeah. Um, you know, it's a great um it's a compliment to us when clients come and they say, "Look, we've been trying to achieve this thing, whatever it is, recover stolen money or find a missing person, and we've hired lawyers and we've, you know, done everything we could ourselves, and we've kind of gotten to the end of that road, and we don't know what else to do. So, what can you bring to it that's new?" Um, and that's kind of what happened in this case. I mean, Tucker had this real fascination with this mystery that many of us didn't realize how how kind of profound and and and and ongoing it was. I mean, unless you're really well-versed in the Satoshi mythology and the history of Bitcoin, you don't really know um how well Satoshi did, you know, hiding his identity. And it's such an achievement in this day and age, the digital world that we live in. Um so in that sense it was a real opportunity to do um the kind of investigation we've never really done before. >> So Tucker, where where did your fascination come from? >> In 2020 when COVID hit and we all had to go home and lock our front doors and clean our packages. I uh was in pre-production on a film. We had to shut down and come back home. And I'd been interested in Satoshi, but in honestly looking for something to focus on that I didn't require traveling to some exotic place to shoot something. I thought um there might be an interesting story there. Uh I knew that a lot of people had done great research before us. So I really just dove in and started reading everything I could about Satoshi uh from that point on and pretty quickly figured out, well, no one really has a definitive answer. And in my estimation, this is the single biggest financial mystery of all time. Satoshi, you know, today is the Satoshi wallet at least is uh you know has a very significant amount of wealth somewhere between I think 80 billion and 120 billion depending on the price of Bitcoin. Um in the last sort of 6 months that's been the vacasillation. So having some entity have or person have that amount of money, never sell it, never move it, uh, you know, is a fascinating thing. And uh, and as our partner on this film, Bill Cohan, likes to say, it's not human nature to have that kind of wealth and never touch it. So that that just sets up a mystery. I mean, I'm a storyteller and and I love to to to try to solve mysteries or to try to tell stories about mysteries, especially when they're very complex and involve, you know, a lot of different people. But pretty quickly, we figured out that this was not just a mystery, but a human story, a story about human beings. And I think that's what differentiates the film potentially from other films about this. Um, we're not it's not some opaque, you know, person in a mass. this was a human being. These were human beings. And uh when Tyler came on board, we really dove in to figure out not just, you know, where the story starts in terms of Satoshi, but all of the events that led up to the creation of Bitcoin and probably gave Satoshi the motivation to do what Satoshi did. >> Yeah. So, did you guys have any suspicions when you started? I think Tucker, you probably more than Tyler. like Tyler, did did you start from just from scratch and did that help? Like how how how is that I mean like in the Bitcoin community have they have all these different ideas around it, right? And we and we'll get to like some people don't don't like the kind of attempt at doxing Satoshi for example and uh um yeah like how did you start? Did you know anything about Bitcoin or had you ever read anything about Satoshi? >> A little bit. I mean, that was the first thing that we did. Um, you know, picking up on on what Tucker had done is we made an effort to basically read everything that we could find, every medium post, every Reddit, every subreddit, every news article to kind of figure out what had been done already, you know, and we came across, you know, all of the candidates that had been floated before, whether it's Hal Finny or Steve Jobs, whether it's Elon Musk or uh or Nick Zabo, right? And these are names that had been floated out there for many years. And so we took all of the candidates, there might have been 15 or 20 that we had at least. And then we said, "Okay, let's put them over to the side, and let's start again from scratch." Because what we'd never want to do is begin with a hunch or a conspiracy theory because if you do that, you're already kind of putting blinders on like from an investigative methodology. And so we we put those to the side and then we we we went out into the world. Actually, one of the first things we did, Bram, is we we started interviewing all of these cryptographers, you know, computer scientists who build these privacy and security systems, right? These are the men and women who've written software over the last 25, 30 years to allow us to send emails to each other so no one can hack into our emails or to send a financial transaction, a wire for instance, so that no one else can hack into that. And these are the people who built these systems. And we suspected and knew that Satoshi came out of this world. Um in the 90s there was this group of people as you know well called the cipher punks. Um which were essentially kind of uh you know nerdy mathematicians but they had this idea that they could use technology to try to create some kind of protection for the rest of us like as corporate power and government power was increasing. Um, and so back to your question about candidates um, for who we thought Satoshi would be, I started asking people in this community kind of very open-mindedly like you know when you talk amongst yourselves I would say like what are the names that float to the surface um, and genuinely wanting to know what they thought not not giving them the names of people that we had already considered and that was a very valuable exercise because they started naming people who were fascinating uh in that they had been curious about digital payment systems and various kinds of electronic cash going all the way back to the 1980s and 1990s which basically taught us oh this is a history project so we need to understand the history so that we understand where we are today >> if your Bitcoin double tomorrow would you feel good about how it's secured right now most people haven't really pressure tested And I get it. 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If if you look at also like the technologies used and and all the research before, you could say that Bitcoin is kind of like this culmination of even even like 70 years of um computer science type uh research, right? where you know the cipher punks that you that you referenced were uh I think really at the first that were at the point of trying to apply the actual knowledge into you know practical uh products or examples there's this famous example of the the the printing of the t-shirts from the PGP team right and that they travel and that they get into the bunch of trouble and actually later I don't know if that's also in the documentary where Phil Zimmerman uh of PGP he talks about that uh Hellfiny was actually um uh I think the the person that uh had that idea or whatever, right? And that Phil Zimmerman took the blame for him or something like something like like that. But I always thought it was just interesting to see that these ideas were kind of like old but they're still um relevant today or like even even more relevant today than than let's say um 40 years ago, right? And so I I think there's an interesting tension here where where there's a lot of people that are obviously very focused on privacy, right? And and you guys entered a a community, I think, where doxing is kind of like the the ultimate uh uh sin. And so like early on like like you just shared, Tyler, when you guys went out there, did you feel like you were being treated as outsiders to kind of like ruin ruin the magic or or more like journalists and and and people actually genuinely interested, you know, like Tucker like you shared how you know your history before kind of like trying to find the truth? Like was there any hostility trying to build this this trust? there wasn't as much hostility to be honest as as we expected and I think part of that is you know again I was taking Tucker's lead on >> we really wanted to go out into the world with a genuine curiosity about what we were trying to learn and one of the first things I did actually is I I called up maybe the most famous cryptographer in history whose name is Wit Diffy who Tucker knew all about by the way um to give to give him credit um and I and I said hey Wit um By the way, Whit Diffy, for those who don't know, is most famous for co-creating public key cryptography in the early 1970s. And this is used by RSA and then by PGP and then Bitcoin and countless other technologies to give us the protection in the digital sphere that we have to this day, two generations later. And I said, "Wit, can I take you out for lunch?" And he and I had like a 4-hour lunch in Silicon Valley in Palo Alto. And um at the end of that meeting, he said, "You know what? You should come with me to the crypto conference in Santa Barbara, which is a cryptography conference that's been happening since the 1980s. Uh you can basically be my date." And so I went with with with Whit Diffy to this conference. And it's like I said this to Tucker once before, it's like going to the Oscars with Robert Redford. It's like this legendary guy >> who's like introducing me around to people. And and I realized he was doing that because he believed in the mission and he felt that we were taking a very um cautious approach to this, not trying to unmask or dox anybody at all. And getting Wit to to literally like interrupt people in the middle of conversations and introduce me to people was really a wonderful way to get, you know, an introduction into that world. >> Yeah. Yeah. Tucker, for you, I think you said, you know, you're a storyteller and I think, you know, I I'm deep in in Bitcoin maxi Twitter, right? So, and I've been kind of like teasing the film. I'm sharing like I I you know, with people like I I I think you will like um you know, how it's portrayed, what the what the conclusion is, um etc. Right? And now now that it's out, I've seen people comment like, you know, uh this film is rehashing whatever we talked about in forums like 7 years ago or whatever. But like how how do you you know that is obviously a way smaller group of people. This kind of where I want to get to like I I I feel that um you play a different role in this just the Bitcoin story, this part of the of the of the Bitcoin story. So, so yeah, kind of like how how do you see that where you know this this could all stay obscure in some internet forums or some some deep, you know, little groups that go very deep, right? Or you can create a certain form of a medium and then share it with a bigger audience. Like could you maybe share a bit about how how you experience that? I want to say tension or maybe also kind of share about how you view the medium of creating a documentary like this where um >> Sure. It's a really good question. >> It's like a culmination of the of the information, right? Like you don't have to be an internet sleuth to to to to get a sense of um who Satoshi could be. >> That's right. And and I think the who is certainly important, the who is Satoshi, but the how and why is also really really really important. And when we started this movie, we wanted to encompass all of that, right? So what were the conditions in the world that led to this need for privacy? What were the conditions in the world that that led to this sort of notion that um I shouldn't have to be subject to putting a, you know, something of value through an institution that I have no trust in or relationship with. So they can then go pass that on to somebody else and take fees in the middle. you know, this this libertarianleleaning idea that we should all be, you know, have um privacy. We should all be have the ability to to if I wanted to send you Brim some money today, I should have the ability to do that without interference. And so the the how and the events that leading up to that that led up to this creation and multiple creations that preceded it were equally as important. But I think at the end of it um we wanted to put to put what we thought was the answer forward but we also wanted to tell the story of the people. It's a human story. At the end of the day Satoshi isn't some you know crazy figure somewhere human being with family with ambition with problems like we all have. That's what's relatable in storytelling is is when you can connect to the humans in the story and the and the reasons that they do what they do and their brilliance and their creativity and the sadness and all of the emotional aspects of it. So that's not doxing. That's just understanding. That's context. We we definitely went to great lengths to not have this come off as a you know we're gonna you know rug pull somebody and you know surprise and you know do some irresponsible reveal. Um, we really wanted context to help us and I think context really helps in those situations when you understand, you know, why, how, you know, all of the ingredients that go into something like this. Additionally, I think in terms of appealing to a broader audience, we set out to not only solve the mystery, but to explain in a way that didn't feel like you were going to school, why Bitcoin is good, you know, why we think it's good, what the virtues of it are, how it came to be, and how it works. Because in the movie business, if you can't pitch something in an elevator, you know, it's it's it's hard to sell that as a film. And as much as I knew about Bitcoin and as much as the people I was friends with knew about Bitcoin, >> when you sat down to get an explanation of what Bitcoin was, it was no short. It was like a 25, 35 minute explanation that went on to the next day. Oh, I forgot about this and it does this, >> right? And so we wanted to simplify that accurately um and make it entertaining to people. And so I think the the big part of the movie that is overlooked when your movie is called Finding Satoshi is, you know, the explaining what Bitcoin part is, the explaining what the blockchain is, the explaining about privacy. So these are all things that I think are infinitely interesting and I think um important in the world and important if you want to if you're interested in finance, if you're interested in in in the economy, if you're interested in how money works. So I think we we do a good job and you know I hope I hope people appreciate it um of explaining that and sort of deconstructing all that in a way that very relatable and understandable. >> Yeah. No, this is exactly why I thought it it it was valuable right as compared to this for example last week or two weeks ago there was this New York Times article to calling Adam back uh Satoshi with extremely um simplistic reasoning. Yeah, that's that's a nice way to say it, I think. And also, again, I think rehashing stuff that has been debunked way before, right? And it kind of shows that that it's it's just for the clicks, you know, like, oh, this is uh this this mysterious person sitting on 100 billion and whatever, like where are they, you know, something something? It's this guy. Um that doesn't really show uh I think respect for for the kind of gift that that Bitcoin is to the world. And um I personally think that is that is very important and and also I I think kind of shows also the difference between you know honest interest in the actual subject or trying to to get clicks for for the ads on the on the website right and so that's um that's really also why why I thought it was was valuable. There's there's a moment in the in the film that I thought was really interesting. I learned a new term uh how did what did you say? First name unknown, last name unknown. >> Fenu Lenu, first name on >> Shenu Lenu. Yeah. >> So you're sitting with a Justice Department official and and they mentioned this this Satoshi file, right, with with this first name. >> Yeah, we were sitting with Katie Han who um was uh in the Justice Department during the um Obama administration u or she's a prosecutor um during the Obama administration and she was tasked with looking into what is Bitcoin? what is this? And she was explaining that um there is a file that exists >> that the title of it is Fenu Lenu and it's not John Lenu or or Fenu Smith. It's first name unknown, last name unknown. And that is the investigation into Bitcoin. And we just found that fascinating that that um you know that that's sort of a you know something you would find in a detective's office and for an unsolved crime or something like that. And um >> it's very relatable and when you're and and all anybody who's you know delved into trying to figure out who Satoshi is starts at that same place like you know we know Satoshi is not Satoshi's real name you know so first name unknown last name unknown is kind of the starting place of this investigation and you know where it leads you is you know and you referred to the New York Times article I just want to say like I think uh John's an incredible um journalist and and reporter. Um there's a tendency and we we are guilty of it as well with this movie to be overly optimistic about how long it will take you to do this. And we learned the hard way and I certainly learned this movie took twice the amount of time that I thought it would and twice the amount of money that I thought it would because you can't force an answer. You have to come you have to come upon it. And so if you have a deadline for oh I'm going to write this. No, I'm not saying that John did, but I'm If you have a deadline for I'm gonna write this article on who Satoshi Nakamoto is, you better come up with the answer by the deadline. We got lucky. You know, there was a moment in time in the movie where we almost just stopped because we we were going down one road and we thought for sure that was the answer and then we found out it couldn't be the answer and we had to start over. Um, and that's a hard thing to do when you're spending money and time and and and so I I have empathy for everybody who delves into this. It's a lot more difficult than it it appears at first. >> Yeah. I mean that that's also why it's so intriguing, I would say. Right. So, um maybe Tyler Tyler for you. So, you talked to this Justice Department um lady, right? And uh I I I assume she was tasked with looking into Bitcoin because it was used in in Silk Road or just, you know, in in some um criminal endeavors, right? Uh what what was it like like talking to her and and realizing that there was this first name unknown, last name unknown? There there was an actual file on that. >> Well, you know, it was actually Bill Cohan who did that interview. Tucker, were you with him during that conversation? You were. But I think you're right, Bram. You make you bring an important point up, which is that she was investigating Bitcoin because it was in that period of Bitcoin's evolution in history when when people heard the word Bitcoin, they probably thought criminal activity and fraud because all of the news stories back then were Silk Road or Silk Road related, right? Because bad guys were using it. And in some ways it was like the worst period in Bitcoin because like this was like it was like bad PR for a company that had no PR agency. >> Um and so you know it's a natural thing for a law enforcement agency to kind of investigate it. Um we found it fascinating because not only she seemed to be saying to us not only were we looking into people who were using Bitcoin but we were looking into the origins of it itself. It's almost like saying who created cash, right? And what are we going to do with this new form of money and how is it used? Um I don't think we know to this day if they have the answer. My personal opinion is that they never got the answer which makes it feel all all the more exciting that we that we have a really uh a good answer to that question. Um, but I think that's an important part of the history of understanding of Bitcoin that it did go through this phase of really negative publicity largely around the criminal activity that was swirling around it. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, right? Because I I think in in Bitcoin we say, you know, bit Bitcoin as the the protocol, right? It's basically the invention of a language or math or, you know, like grammar or chess or it's just a set of rules. So there it also isn't really that much you can ban basically because conceptually this exists right and it cannot um cannot really die. You can create uh a different version of it but then it's not like chess or like English grammar or like um or like math. And so um there are many people that start very enthusiastically to figure this out, right? And and I think they also run into this not only like the intellectual wall but also this um I don't know like the wall of humility or or something like that and they feel kind of uh imply to to to talk about it and and so for example right like you have um now of course I I don't again like I saw a preview of the movie so I don't know if it's in this version right but I assume you don't talk about the Epstein Epstein of right like uh people saying like oh this is Epstein and like like Epstein is talking about like I met Satoshi or like there's other people that communicate with him that say like oh I met Satoshi and there's even this video of this um special agent of of of Homeland Security that's like on video where she says like I met with the four Satoshi's and stuff like that. Um yeah what do you guys think about that? Like does the government know more than they let on? you know, are there for Satoshi's? And and I is that a thing or is it what you said, Tyler, you just think like it's it's kind of a it's kind of a dud and it's just people talking because it's it's interesting. >> Yeah. In my personal opinion, that's kind of a dud. We actually did ask the CIA and the NSA what they knew like and we filed, you know, open records requests with the agencies. They still have not responded to our requests, which is kind of interesting. Um, but one thing I'll add to your point about, you know, math is that another example in the in the history of all this is the story of Phil Zimmerman, who you mentioned, who who talked to us at length for our film. And the reason that his story is so interesting is that, you know, so Phil created PGP, which was the first truly encrypted email system in the early 1990s. And one of the first things the government did, the State Department, is they considered launching an investigation. And in fact, they did. And they considered arresting and indicting Phil and his staff because they felt that this encryption could be classified as a munition. So it needed a license from the federal government because they worried that it was going to be used by terrorists and criminals. >> And eventually the case was dropped. And two of the people who happened to have been working for him at that time were Hal Finny who wrote almost all of the substantive code for that and Len Sassin who are two key people in our film. And the reason I tell that story is that that set the precedent or that was part of a precedent of the government being skeptical of software, >> skeptical of coders who did something that was so innovative and so creative in very much the same way that Satoshi did. And so our understanding is that the people who worked at PGP saw what Phil went through and witnessed that attack by the government which by the way eventually it was great publicity for PGP in the long run because you can't as John Callas who was the co-founder of PGP said to us you can't outlaw arithmetic or algebra which is essentially what they were trying to do. >> Yes. And so here we are, fast forward to Bitcoin where why not be a little creative and anonymous in releasing, you know, some open- source technology because the government has been skeptical of this before. For my European friends that want to buy Bitcoin with ease, check out Relay. I've been a longtime fan and happy to partner up with what I think is the best Bitcoin only platform for Europeans. They offer a super simple, beginner-friendly app with no distractions and no shitcoins. You can do a quick one-time smash buy or set up automatic purchases when you're stacking regularly. 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You can easily create a loan request with your desired amount, duration, and interest rate and share it on their marketplace at firefish.io. When you get matched and decide to accept a loan offer, you can use code brum to get 30% off your first loans fees. That's firefish.io and code brum. the the president was clearly set, right? And um uh this is what I alluded to earlier, this this part of where I think they printed books, right? And they traveled with the books and they printed the code on on shirts and stuff like that to to kind of like make a make a joke of the ridiculous point that, you know, words are are ammo basically. And >> I I like that this is this is a certain way of thinking, right? It's not only it's a certain way of thinking that comes from witnessing that you might end up creating just you know using language to eventually um evade what uh turns out to be uh you know very intrusive actions by uh a government that should basically leave you alone, right? And so I love that idea or or or just the the seat for that thinking. I think never never dies and and after PGP I think uh Bitcoin and and like the torance of course like before that right which I think if you look at the branch of all the things that came together you have these this part you know PGP and and also the the P2P torance etc that you know eventually helped also get to to um to Bitcoin. So I think Bitcoin kind of feels like this masterpiece combination uh because if you can transfer value uh without any permission, right? Like that's that's that's uh the ultimate uh um kind of like uh this is why people call Bitcoin FU money, right? Like this is the ultimate FU basically against anyone who wants to um to control you. So like that type of thinking I think uh uh is just extremely interesting and it's not a surprise that of course you're looking at that corner right so be before we kind of go to the reveal of who you ended up with I'd love to know and and Tucker you just mentioned you know there was one one point or maybe multiple points where you kind of like wanted to wanted to give up give up was there a point where the the film project or or a case started to become an obsession more like did did you get to a point where you were like okay I need to I need to know I need to know this now. >> No I mean no uh we were obsessed and highly interested in solving it and in coming up with a concrete answer. That said um we wanted to find the right one and we weren't comfortable you know putting out something that we didn't we couldn't stand behind and that we didn't believe in. And so I think the the temptation at that moment in time was what you know maybe we just stop like may maybe we just stop because you know we were we were definitively down a path and we were literally going into a phase of okay we're going to start finishing film and you know that turned out to be really good luck for us meaning the movie is infinitely more interesting. We got a lot more great interviews that we would not have otherwise had in the film. And I think the answer is is is right. So I so thank goodness for that. Uh you just have to you know these things are expensive, right? So as you go you're spending money and you don't know when that's going to stop. And so we had to you know try to be we we did it all on a you know as as economically as we could. Um Tyler was flying flying around the world in coach, not in first class. And um and we were um you know and and and we were sort of doing the best we could. The the obsession came when when you start to feel like there's a line that you can follow and you think you're on the right path, that's where the obsession really kicks in because because you can see the finish line and you're obsessed from from getting to where you are to there. And so I think that's, you know, that drove us through, I'll call it, the second half of this film. >> Um, I think I think there's a common critique that, you know, people that that investigate Satoshi only kind of like look at the known suspects, right? I mean, Tyler, you just mentioned, right, we we just uh started reading about what what has everyone been saying, etc. Um, is there a version of the world where the real Satoshi uh is someone whose name has just never been mentioned, you think, or is it just are are the breadcrumbs too too hot basically? >> Uh, I mean, my personal opinion is like we we we got it right. Having said that, you know, we we've never said things like case closed and this is a smoking gun. like we're we're our job was really to try to like gain insights into this world and to learn as much as we could and then to get the people in this world to talk to us, right? And so that's why we got, you know, the spouses and the best friends and the former colleagues to go on the record and be very honest and open and in some cases cry because they remembered these people with with such dear feelings. But having said all that like there were plenty of suspects by the way you remember Tucker we came up with the names of people who you know who had been interested in digital cash were excellent coders in C++ and died in a car accident like in 2012 >> right like and there were that's just that's a real example >> um and and many people like that who we said okay we need to keep these people up on the board right we have the red string we got the whole detective thing going and it wasn't until we really started getting traction with the people that we un landed on who I can talk about as soon as Tucker gives me permission to say >> that we started to feel feel like we were going and and and the first person who gave us that Bram was was John Callas who was the co-founder of PGP who is very good friends with Hal Finny knew Len Sassimon very well um and by the way John Callus is today the moderator of the Metsowed email list which is exactly where the Satoshi White's paper first appeared on Halloween 2008 and John Callus said, "Come on over. Let's talk about this." So I went to John's house and we spent hours and hours and hours talking about this and I was learning from him and I was asking him questions and then I did it again and then he introduced me to colleagues of his and to friends of his and then we got to meet Will Price and I went to Will Price's house. Will Price by the way was the chief architect of PGP worked directly for Phil Zimmerman. employed Hal Finny, gave Hal Finny all of his assignments, knew his coding skills, and so we really started to get into it back and forth. And in fact, and Tucker was wonderful about his support of this, I said to him, I want to make sure that we are not like going through the world with blinders on. I said, I want to make the case against Hal Finny. >> Mhm. >> To Will Price on camera, and this is in the film where I say, I'm going to lay out why I think Hal's not Satoshi. and he said, "Good luck." >> And so I went point after point after point and it was he schooled me. It was wonderful to to watch Will >> and he wasn't trying to be right and he wasn't trying to be political. This is my personal feeling. He was memorializing a dear friend of his who he believed deserved credit for one of the most beautiful technological creations. >> Yeah. >> Of the modern era. And so that kind of experience from an investigative standpoint was groundbreaking. >> Yeah. So the the the conclusion, right, hints at a collaboration between Hal Finny and and Len Sesame, Len Sesame, who also um worked at at PGP, right, where um your theory is now that Hal was the coder. Len um wrote uh the the paper basically. Um I what was the I want to call it a smoking gun, right? But like may maybe it was that moment that that you just mentioned, but that's also what I really liked about the film is that uh you see what you just said, right? Like they are they are memorializing or just remembering a person that had very deep motivation for the creation of something possibly like this, right? That's how they talk about him. and then later also the the people that are connected with um with Len. How do you kind of like what's the trade-off between like seeing that and sitting there with someone but also you know uh Satoshi was like super active in forums, right? And then I think in the film you also talk about you know that people had a lot of these alternative names and they talk to themselves and etc. Right? So, so how do you kind of like have that trade-off between having a feeling of someone is describing, you know, the the the perfect picture of of hell, you know, having the skills and the ideology and whatnot to to be able to create this versus, okay, how do you connect that practically? And for example, there's the point where hell goes to this race, right? He does that's the famous picture of Hellfini. Uh, but then Satoshi is also active. like how how do you kind of like comb through that stuff to to get a clearer picture? >> So, I think there's a few examples that are in the film that I'm happy to talk about, but one is this example of Len was very public about posting about like basically shit-talking Twitter, talking Bitcoin, >> disliking Bitcoin. Yeah. >> Yeah. Disliking Bitcoin. And we talked about a lot about this. We, by the way, we weren't the first ones to to to discover this. Um, it had been known. And and so we said, who can we call to ask them about this about Len's activity? And so we called his very best friend in the world, Bram Cohen, who's an amazing participant in this film. Bram Cohen, by the way, who runs Chia, the cryptocurrency today, and is the inventor of Bit Torrent, which in many ways is very similar to Bitcoin. Um, and then Meredith Patterson, Len's Len's wife. And both of them told us things that were so powerful and so useful in helping us understand. Like Len, for example, Meredith told us when I said to her at one point, "Is it possible that Len was involved in creating Bitcoin or created Bitcoin and never told you?" And without missing a beat, she said, "Yeah, of course." Like to her that was like >> something that was very possible. But I think when we think of Bitcoin today, we think there's no way someone creates a multi-billion dollar asset and doesn't tell their spouse, right? But back then, that's not what it was. It was like a brand new technology that was still being like designed essentially in the first couple of years by a small group of cryptographers uh and enthusiasts. And then with Bram Cohen, the example was, you know, why would Len speak badly about his own invention? and he said like quite matterof factly, well, it's a perfect way of helping create the anonymity around this, right? It's like a deflection. >> Um, and so it was wonderful to get their almost very matter-of-act responses to that and because of who they were and are and because of their connection to Lynn, best friend and wife, right? These are not people who knew him in high school, right? arguably the most important people in his life or some of the most important people and willing to talk to us about this felt very powerful. But I'll let Tucker pick up on what I was mentioning. >> Yeah. Look, I mean, I think that you said it really well. Um the specifically with regard to that um the sort of idea that you want as many different points if you're if you're trying to create something and you're trying to do it pseudonymously and not have people understand who it was. You're going to attack it. You're going to attack it from different voices. You're going to try to throw people off the scent. And we learned um in that in that interview with with Meredith that Len was an expert at that that he that he studied um styometry or styometric anonymity. And >> she talks specifically about um about that methodology and and about how Len, you know, was really a student of that. And many people at the time were, you know, practiced the same thing. So, I think that's just a really nuanced and specific thing that um that speaks to why he would do something like that. >> Yeah. You um you you had Lens Wife on camera eventually also uh Fran Finny Hell's wife. I saw a tweet of Fran where she shared, you know, uh >> that that you approached her in 2023 that she didn't really want to um um participate. Uh, I've seen an earlier interview of friend Finny where she talks about actually being swatted I think when when Hal was still alive but like very sick like bedbound and stuff >> which I I don't know the details of that story but you know that sounds terrifying for her of course so so I understand the apprehension. Um, yeah. Why why or how did you did you convince her to actually talk to you? Like she's public probably the most uh public relative of of any of these, you know, possible suspects of being Satoshi and makes a lot of sense that that she doesn't want the publicity. Like why what what turned her around? >> Well, first off, we always knew that having her in the film would would be very important for us. Um, and we tried, as as you referenced, we tried several times. Tyler reached out and had some communication with her and she really dismissed um, wanting to be involved at all. Ultimately, we finished the film and I think that was the version of the film that you saw about a year ago and we were very happy with with where it was and we felt that in many ways it was the opposite of a sort of doxing story and it honored it really honored you know how's contributions um and many many many of those who led up to Bitcoin's contributions and so we wanted to try a second shot and and we were fortunate enough to um to you know have a conversation and show the film to Natalie Bernell who was friendly with Fran and she was moved by the movie and and sent an email to Fran suggesting that she at least watch it and and no promises but that she watch it and and and you know see how she felt about it. So we drove up Christian parent who works with me and I drove up to Santa Barbara and we rented a screening place and we showed Fran the film. I was very nervous about it. I I think I called Tyler six times in the parking lot while she was watching the movie just cuz I knew how important it was not only to me but to the movie that she, you know, felt protected by it and and honored by it and and and you know, we really wanted ultimately to get her on camera and and she came out of the film and um you know, gave me a big hug and and said she she really, you know, was moved and and thought the film was was, you know, very interesting and compelling. and she agreed to go on camera. So, we were, you know, an example of why had we finished it earlier, that would have never happened. Um, and so we were fortunate in that and we feel really lucky to have her in the movie. She's a wonderful person. Um, just a very genuine and and sweet person and we're very protective of her because of what's happened in the past with her. And so we we kind of wanted to make it very clear at the end of the movie that, >> you know, we've done work, you know, on whether she could potentially have any, you know, keys or anything like that, any Bitcoin, and she doesn't, you know, and def it's def we're very definitive on that point. Um, we just don't want anybody sort of >> chasing that anymore than they have in the past and and we want to we want to protect her in that regard. Um, but I think she was really an important part of the movie and the sentiment and what she said and how she talked about how comes through again it's the human story. It's, you know, this is a husband and wife who loved each other and cared for each other and knew each other and and she she maintains um and and we respect this and we put it in in a card at the end of the movie. She maintains that, you know, while she thinks, you know, Hal certainly could have collaborated and and, you know, I don't want to put words in her mouth, but but there there's a lot saying that he did collaborate with Len in the time before the code was released. Um, both of them, you know, she knew that they were in conversation and that they knew each other. Um, and she she she still believes that Hal is not the one who called himself Satoshi and um that you know he he did not mind that the the million Bitcoin but um look we we believe that um how was integral and um you know it's a it's a it's an interesting thing to talk about because who gets the do you go all the way back to you know PGP and give credit to those people for Bitcoin you know, everybody gets a little bit of a slice of credit leading up to this invention because without any one of those individual pieces, it would not be what it is. Um, so I think ultimately it feels to us and it felt to us and we we we stand by it that Hal and Len are the two that that contributed the most in the end there to get this online. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think the the part about you know the it's the combination of different types of of technologies that eventually culminate into Bitcoin right and I think the big um invention that Satoshi did was solving the the the Byzantine general problem right which is eventually also game theoretical um type problem which is one of Len's uh expertises right so that makes a lot of sense combined with the the the technical work that um Hal did. And so on that uh the game theoretical part, I want to I want to talk about like one smoking gun type uh uh um of of evidence that that people are talking about now like on on the internet. We kind of mentioned it before we started, but I I I want to have it have it uh in in the recording, right? Like in the white paper there's there's only a few citations, right, of sources. And there the second citation is about um like a very obscure book or printonly paper, right? That that that was released at a conference in 1999 in uh Belgium. And it was very hard to to find like you could only buy it at the University of Lev in Belgium where where Len was um um active at the time. And when when we talked uh before, you know, you mentioned that you you thought you saw the book or you saw the book on the shelf, right, in in uh in the home of of Meridith of Len's wife and now there's there's people online that say, "Hey, there's a there's a picture on his Flickr account that shows his bookshelf and you see the book there. Could you kind of elaborate on if if this was the actual paper or the actual book or not? Like did you did you use that part?" Um, yeah, >> we we didn't use in the film because we couldn't verify it and and we did um we we someone actually after after we finished the film uh reached out to Bill Cohan um with this information and a screenshot of the Flickr account and the and the bookcase in the back and just in doing our own work and Tyler worked a little bit on it as well. It appears that that is not the right addition that was cited in in the white paper kind of when you go in and you look at the the date of it. Um so you know we just didn't feel you know like that could be used as as a as a piece of evidence. It's obviously interesting but those um you know after those conferences many of those books were distributed to the attendees of the conference and this one at least the one in the in the Flickr um picture appears to be from a from a post um you know white paper um you know conference so era. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. interesting because it was a game theoretical uh book, right? So, um >> there's no doubt that that that that you know as as you point out um a lot of this stuff was floating around and and there was a general interest as there would be today if if if you know technical people if some revolutionary conference you know put out or or impactful conference put out a book everybody would want to look into it and read it you know whatever it was about. So I think that these were while they were rare in terms of the general public in this small circle um or small respectively small circle they were popular and and a lot of people looked at them and read them. >> Yeah. Um for you both kind of to to wrap up some some questions. Did did your personal appreciation for Bitcoin change after understanding who who likely build it? Like you you had a certain outset from the start. You both had different starts, right? How how did your thoughts around this evolve and um >> yeah, has has Bitcoin become bigger in your life? >> Go ahead. >> I mean, I suppose my answer is a version of what I said earlier, which is that I I gained a real appreciation for the original motives for why what went into the creation of Bitcoin that I still think to this day is is lost for many people. Um I mean and this is why I think some people say it's not relevant. Um because many things right like Listerine, gunpowder, uh bubble wrap, these are all inventions that were created for one reason and we use them for another right um and Bitcoin is like that too. And I think that's part of the beauty of Bitcoin that it's evolved with the community, right? Because Bitcoin was released as open-source software. There's no CEO, there's no board, there's no corporate entity, there's nothing. It's just software. That's all, right? That's what the code was released to be. Which means the community jumps on board and it's a com it's a collaboration of those who are curious about it and interested in about it. And that to me was in and of itself fascinating along with this idea that you know if you read the white paper like he Satoshi very clearly says that this is an electronic payment system, right? It's a it's a form of digital cash to protect privacy. And although it doesn't really do that today, um I'm still to this day fascinated by those origins. Um and watching it become what it is today. Like almost every day there's new news about whether it's some new regulation or lack of regulation or even during the course of the making of our film a number of countries took on Bitcoin as sovereign currency. I mean whether you like that or not is a fascinating development >> uh in world history. Um and so to kind of be be we were involved in this investigation as this asset as this technology is kind of exploding and in much the way that AI is today, right? Like every other day you learn something new about it and where it's going. And so it's been fun to be surfing on that wave. >> Yeah, that's a that's a really um that's a good answer. I I I would say for me I I really had a an appreci almost immediate appreciation of Bitcoin when I started learning about it and through this process that's only grown um understanding how unique and interesting and intelligent and and these people were who who sort of led to this creation and how difficult it was at the time to do um gives me a lot of reverence for it and respect for it and I do believe that it's become Um it's you know we talk about it in the movie it's a it's gone from it went from zero to a trillion in sort of less than 10 years which is more than any ass you know any asset class or company has faster than any asset class or company has ever done that and I think that's for good reason. I think it's it's here to stay. It's not going anywhere. Um there's a lot of elegance about what it does and and what it is. There are certainly, you know, issues down the road with quantum and, you know, different things like that that could, you know, be challenging, but I do believe um I do believe that something as profound as as I believe Bitcoin is needs a great origin story. And we wanted to contribute to that origin story with this movie in a way that was um respectful and uh accurate. Um so so I think uh through that process I' I've just grown to um appreciate it even more. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I always, you know, use the argument of the do you know how many ideas are released on the internet every day, right? In obscure internet forums all all over the place. And then even even 17 years later, this um you know, you could say random idea, not so random once you get it, right? But uh this this random idea um is still surviving and thriving and uh um I I think that is the main signal and and I agree with you and I also want to emphasize that like uh um on one side I was always at the camp of you know it's it's it doesn't matter who Satoshi is. It's what you said Tyler, right? And it also it doesn't matter because Bitcoin doesn't really care. That's the whole point, right? It's not attached to to anyone. But I do think it's cool that, you know, and and I've talked to many people on this podcast now that come from many different backgrounds and interests and ages and whatever. You know, there's so many people that are drawn to Bitcoin in their own way, you know, with their own creativity and skills and history. You know, Tucker, you you you have a lot of history in telling telling these stories. So, I think it's actually very cool that you felt compelled to to tell that story like you just said, right? that that origin story is great and I personally don't think it changes anything about Bitcoin. Uh it it it probably even you know if you if you really watch it and get all the other info besides you know Len and Hell um I think a lot of people will grow more appreciation of of the the concept and the reasoning behind this right and the motivation behind this as well and I think that kind of I would say is is is more important than and and I think also helps Bitcoin you know and the reason of existence for Bitcoin itself more and the uh taking away that that anonymity. I mean to a degree I I'd say we're lucky that they are not alive. I think that that would have would well maybe that's a question. Would that have changed that for you? Like is there a difference between you know them being both deceased or or let's say it were two people that were alive today? >> Sure. Um there's there there there has to be a difference and and I think that um you know as as is discussed in the um sorry one second as is discussed in the movie um you know if you have uh people who who have created something and they're alive they're they're looked at as founders almost and so >> the attention goes um as much to the creation as it does to the people who created it and what they say or you know decisions they make become very public um and and you can vacasillate in terms of um what you might feel about those people versus what you feel about their invention. And I mean, you know, it doesn't take much imagination to to think about, you know, past creators, you know, whether it was Jobs and Waznjak or Elon or whatever who have created incredibly brilliant things um which have become, you know, mass distributed and used and they're changed the world and impacted people's lives and and sometimes, you know, one of them's in the headlines or one of them has been in the headlines and everybody swings in one direction and then swings back in the other direction. So, I think it's impossible to sort of separate those two things. I love that um that the attention right now and in the past is really has really been on the actual creation as opposed to, you know, the lives of the people that, you know, created it. And but I did want to and we thought it was really really important to get into those people's lives and and again honor them because what what they did was was pretty incredible and brilliant. >> So now that the film is out and uh people are discussing you know your conclusion, how how have the reactions to the to the film surprised you Tyler? >> Oh that's a great question. I mean it's been largely very positive which has been wonderful um because in some ways that's a kind of validation of all the work the the hard work that we put into it. Um you know the fact that in the last year there have been two other attempts two other projects like this the HBO film Money Electric and then the New York Times piece a few weeks ago. I think, you know, I personally welcome those, right? Because it's it's smart people, you know, whether it's Adam Mccay or John Kyrie Ruth, the journalist, you know, taking a shot at this. Um, we disagree with their conclusions. We have our own, but um it's it's been wonderful, you know, as is evidenced by this podcast, and I want to thank you, Bram, for asking such uh such smart questions. Um because you know to Tucker's point, it's it's more than just who, but why and what kind of person, you know, and that's the benefit of having someone like Tucker tell these stories because his job is narrative. It's storytelling, right? It's keeping audiences engage engaged. And in fact, I would make an argument that we need more scripted filmmakers like Tucker to make documentaries because it's it's a really fun story that we're able to tell, you know, basically using by their own admission kind of nerdy mathematicians, right? And what an amazing uh project to be able to compile with that. So all in all, I I'm I'm really happy with the reception so far. Would you agree, Tucker? >> I would. Yeah. I mean, I think that people um seem to generally really appreciate the effort and the movie and we're getting a lot of positive um feedback. So, anytime that's the case, um it's great. Obviously, there are people who disagree or have their own conclusions and that that's never going to stop. We won't be I doubt the last, you know, documentary on on Satoshi. I think there will be more and that will continue to happen. But I think we've we at least stirred it up in a good way and um we've we think we've done really good work and and conclusive work. >> Awesome guys. Well, thank you so much for uh coming on the podcast. I really appreciate your time and and thanks for sharing how this journey went. Uh if people want to watch the film, they can go to findings satoshi.com and um yeah, if you're listening and you watched it, let us know what you think. And uh yeah, thanks again guys and stay in touch. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thanks. >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, you can click here to find more just like it. And click here to find all Bitcoin for Millennials podcast episodes. Also, if you want to help me shine a light on the message of Bitcoin, please like this video and subscribe to stay connected. I hope to see you for our next episode. Bye.