Unlocking Romans Block 4 Session 1

Let's pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you for a new day uh you gave to us. Um Father, may we u receive the new grace from you and may our hearts be renewed and refreshed. Um may you grant us the wisdom to learn the knowledge about you and to grasp the depths of your word. We commit the following time in your hands. May your holy spirit pour your love into our heart in the name of Jesus Christ we pray. >> Amen. >> Okay. So we are going to finish the walk through of all 16 chapters um and also demonstrate some exoggetical to the text. Today uh we are going to firstly look at something we discussed yesterday about teaching Romans chapter 4. Have you done any research about this? How to teach a non-Jewish generation Z student um the relevance of Romans chapter 4. Uh so we ourselves also confess it's not easy to to relate the story of Abraham and David to us um because the because of the differences culturally and historically uh so have you done any research or or any more brainsstone on this topic? I I've done some research through AI to get some ideas and uh uh some some um points interest me. Uh I would like to read through uh the result it generated. Uh so I asked AI to tell me some cultural relevance or some sensitive uh points of generation Z which is related to uh Romans chapter 4 and also I asked AI to design me some inductive question during the Bible study and also some reflective question. So I would like to read through the contents with everyone. Oops. Try to make this section smaller. uh to make Romans chapter 4 relevant to generation Z non-Jewish students, the study should uh shift the focus away from ancient Jewish ethnic debates like circumcision and instead highlight universal modern struggle, the pressure of hustle culture, the fear of cancel culture, getting what you deserve, and anxiety of having a messy family background and the desire for authentic love over empty religious ritual. What's hustle culture? >> What's hustle culture? >> Working hustling everything. >> Yeah. Feeling filling up your life with many many task and many things. And what about cancel culture? compeh >> so you're basically socially killed >> studing from online so just like cancelling uh cancellation on the subscription people will treat it in that way if you say or do something wrong not feeding to the overall value system. One typical example I will say is you know JK Rowling Harry Potter because of her disagreement on a uh gender issue. Oh, >> she was canled basically. She's still rich and she still writes and she still publishes books, but she basically got cancelled in in the by many publishers and and also many of her fans canled her cancel the subscription and and and because of her speech uh on uh or her opinion on the LGBT issues. Uh so so the young people in generation Z they live not only in this physical and real world we say physical world uh part of them and part of a big part of them and their value is actually online. So if they do they are so afraid of doing or or saying something not feeding to the overall c culture and and people who like them would just cancel them cancel the subscription of them. uh and and basically kill them online. Um so so that that's that's the cancel council culture. Uh here are some suggestion to bridge that gap. Focus on an unqualified hero. I I also mentioned that yesterday Abraham was unqualified. Uh emphasize that Abraham was not perfect religious figure. His father was an idol worshipper and seller. Generation Z student who feel disqualified from God due to their past mental health struggles or dysfunctional families can relate to God's uh God choosing someone purely out of grace not merit. Second uh second point contrast wages with cancel culture. Generation Z is a hyper aware that one mistake can ruin a life. cancel culture explain Paul's concept of wages getting exactly what you earn. If if God uh operates on wages, we would all be condemned because our sins outweigh our good deeds. Grace is the ultimate counter cultural gift. receiving love and righteousness. You didn't um priority uh prioritize authenticity over rituals. Circumcision can be explained as a religious res uh reum or outwards ritual sorry outward ritual. Abraham was justified because before the ritual proving that God cares about the sincere inward heart authenticity authentic authenticity rather than outward religious performance. Lastly, the great exchange friend double imputation as ultimate rescue for a generation struggling with guilt and anxiety. Jesus takes our trespasses uh our mass guilt and punishment and gives us his perfect record. Here is study designed especially for the demo uh demographic. Uh Romans chapter 4, a gift you cannot earn. Question to check information in um based on his family background was Abraham qualified to be the hero of faith. Uh no according to Joshua for chapter 24:E2 and Jewish tradition Abraham's father was an idol worshipper and seller which was detestable to God. Abraham was not chosen because he had a perfect resume. He was justified purely by the grace of God. actually not just within uh people who do not know Bible. You ask them what's the qualification Abraham have uh had when he was called they may answer it wrong. Even Jews knowing all the history they still have the feeling that our ancestor our father uh deserves. Uh so he's great. Um but telling the fact that his family background was messy and was undeserved, it was probably a link with generation Z. Um question two, what is the crucial differences between wages and a gift when it comes to our relationship with God? And question three, I will not read the detail. I can share this document with everyone later. uh was Abraham count counted as righteous before or after he underwent the religious ritual circumcision. Why does this matter? And this can be referred this this content can can refer to Genesis and to really see the sequential events the circumcision happened after Abraham was called and after God has given him the promise. Question four, who is the singular offspring of Abraham and what does it mean for us to be new Abraham, the true descendants of Abraham? Uh question five, uh what is the great exchange double imputation described at the end of this chapter? Uh so chapter 4 verse 25. Uh so and after the Bible study uh these questions were suggested as reflective question. Uh so pretty related to the first four points I read. Abraham came from a family that worshiped idols and did things detestable to God. What messy parts of your own background, family history, or past mistakes makes you feel that you aren't qualified for God's love? Um question two, we live in a society obsessed with wages. You get the grades you earn, the forest you attract, the and counseling you deserve. How does treating your relationship with God like a wage actually destroy your mental and spiritual peace? U so digging out the misunderstanding people may have uh towards God. um growing from their uh knowledge based in their past experience of families and friends and social relationship. Uh question three uh Abraham believed that God could give life to the dead and bring hope to barren situation. Uh what is one dead situation in your life right now in relationship your mental health failed dream where you need to trust God's resurrection power yeah some further reading this can be given to the students to read uh so pretty helpful I think uh those are quite good suggestions yeah and then we come back to Romans Romans Romans chapter 6 we finished chapter 6 uh and yeah I didn't go into too much details but we will just look at the key point uh Romans chapter 7. Uh so there is a big question that we want to ask before going into the details of Romans chapter 7 because historically there are so many different type types of interpretation about Romans chapter 7. Uh I I believe you've read some because uh quite a lot of people believe that Romans chapter 7 was not about a person walking on the path of sanctification. Especially the second half, the struggle between the two me, the me who wants to to follow the law of God and the me who refused to do so. So um yeah so from from especially from verse uh 14 uh to verse 25 who is this eye is this I referring to the Paul who was not born again yet who didn't believe in Jesus yet that he struggled so much and then finally Jesus came he was set free or is it eye of Paul who was walking on a journey of sanctification. So Romans chapter 7, especially the second half from Romans chapter 7 was about before or after before you believe in Jesus or after you believe in Jesus. Or is this eye really apostle Paul himself or was he referring to someone who was struggling under the uh sin under sin and he tried to say hey Jesus is the answer believe in Jesus. So what is your opinion? Was Paul talking about someone before knowing Jesus, believing Jesus, or was he talking about someone who already believed? already believe >> chapter six. >> Chapter seven. >> Yeah. Especially the true me. I I I don't I do this. I that I don't want to >> already believe. >> Already believe. >> Yeah. >> Uh could you explain the reason you think so? I think I think the ones who who don't get salvation still refer to the ones who already Jesus. >> Yeah. But why do you think so? It it seems that the non-believers also struggle because of their conscience right they feel guilt they did something they shouldn't do they struggle and then they do the things they don't like right there are similarities some people didn't struggle but most of the people actually struggle even before believing Jesus good and bad right doing something or sometimes they struggle due to fear they try to reason or if I do this will risk something and sometimes people indeed struggle because of the conscience especially for a person who know the law. Apostle Paul before he believed in Jesus he already knew the law. Was this his struggle before knowing Jesus? No, why not? What was your reason? So when we when we understand some passage, we need to give the reason, right? And then when we think about the reason, we need to think biblically and theologically, right? So you shouldn't just imagine. And what's called thinking biblically? You need to go to the text. You need to go to the context. You need to go to the overall purpose and you need to go to maybe or some hints in this expression or that word and to back up your opinion. And thinking theologically also includes uh in history is there any other explanation what's the problem any critiques and also pastorally right? Uh so so in in my experience of doing mission or ministry my observation right those also can can be considered as a theological approach. So could you give me the reason in a biblical and theological way? Why do you think Romans chapter 7 described the struggle within a Christian not a non-Christian? because I feel when I read this >> and even though I'm not as apostle all things in faith I feel sure before I received Jesus I I didn't know the law but when I s I without that much guilty conscience. I just s I I didn't feel that much about it. But after I received Jesus, it's not like my evaporated my simple habits just though I've not seen that much. struggle with some habits I know is not right. >> So I feel what apostle Paul is mentioning is talking about the I part of me and the other eye it's my spirit because I know in my spirit I have this deep desire to serve faithful and seriously right but The other half is my tendency to to fall back and and do things that I'm not supposed to do. I think that's the that's what he's talking about. >> So it's a little more like personal connection >> as a Christian indeed. There are struggles. What about I think I say they have the desire to to gather it. They have a desire to live according to the word of God and to they have desire to live a holy life and pursue to pursue to pursue to grow into the heart. But in reality people uh they face they facing struggling like long or not they're facing struggling. >> So so your experience and observation tells you that a person who believe in Jesus I had the same struggles, right? Uh yes, I think both your argument catch the part of the application a devotional pastoral observation then Romans chapter 7 talks to to the situation. U but but I really hope theological study will make your your brain and mind to think in a more complete way, biblical way. So, so the very first thing we usually do to back up your opinion is by looking at the text and context. So, by looking at the text itself, we still can't tell it very clearly because Paul, he was a Jew. He had a law unlike the non-religious people who had no idea about law. He was a person who knew law before even knowing Jesus. So, so from the passage itself, if we think this eye refers to Paul, you can't really say it is talking to a believer, I mean a a Christian. Then if the text itself cannot give you really strong clue, you need to open a bit more to look at the context. What's the text before this passage and what is the text after this passage? So if we look at Romans chapter 7 verse14 to 24 or 25 in a bigger context just extend it a little bit from chapter 7 verse 1 to verse six you see it's apparently talking about uh the perspective to understand law after you you have the new relationship right so so chapter 7 verse one to this six very very obvious uh you you can say this is after salvation and then uh what should we say then this is a typical expression Paul respond to the salvation to the new relationship in Jesus Christ and we need to serve God not according to the old pattern but to the new new new uh new pattern u the new way of the spirit not the old way of the written code. Written code refers to the old law and spirit refers to the Holy Spirit which relates to the passage after the controversial passage about how the Holy Spirit helped to liberate the believers. So I I see this whole flow of the text and I the the the the the scripture context and I feel well Paul will not just jump out of the context and talk about something before salvation simply to praise Jesus saving grace. So it's a odd right he can do that but it just break the flow. So because Paul's writing so precise and systematic that it has the perfect flow. So I feel if I say chapter 7 the letter part is about a non-believer non-Christian I feel it doesn't make sense according to Paul's written writing style. So similarly especially when you are writing a letter you're not giving a proverb. Proverb is like today I say something tomorrow I say something next year I say something and then you collect all together. So it's not so easy to interpret proverbs because there are it's very fragment. There is a overall idea to group a certain certain amount of proverbs together but there is no direct link between each proverb. But epistles and letters are different. Letters h has a point. Letter has a flow. Right? you will not talk about something and suddenly jump to another totally unrelevant topic to solve people's curiosity about a certain certain thing. No, there is a purpose and point and flow. So according to the general and the scripture context, I'm more convinced that Paul is talking about the the the life the struggle in a Christian in a believer. uh so yeah that that's my main judgment and then I also relate that to the pastoral concern so it's very easy for Christian to have the myth that after believing Jesus every everything will be soft will be settled that's the first myth and then when they face their struggle the battles inside uh they can't reconcile they they felt why I'm still struggling am I really saved so this is the pastoral observation and personal experience which leads me to feel Paul definitely needs to talk to need need to talk about this before entering this victorious passage in Romans chapter 8 because it's just so so obvious and dominant in the Christian struggles that I don't think he will ignore it so this is the pastoral personal applicational level and also I in my pastoral experience I also discovered there is another misunderstanding to abolish the law which was highly emphasized by Paul that the gospel is not doing that and the gospel is not abolishing the law. So he he's been talking about these occasionally and quite often as a response to the misunderstanding the the the charge uh the opponents gave to him. Uh so there is a misunderstanding inside of the Christians uh in order to reach their inner peace is not important. The law is given to those who are not who are unbelieving but not to me. So because it doesn't charge against me so I'm okay. I find a time of peace. So law is not important. The standards are not important. Holiness is not important. as long as I love Jesus and he loves me and that that's it. So I and I think because this is a big misunderstanding Paul definitely need to solve that and this passage is talking to those who did consider law not shouldn't be abolished but still struggle. So, so because of those observations and understandings on scripture and on the pastoral experience and personal experience, um the personal personally I resonate with the in interpretation that this is about the Paul after salvation, after um being justified, after knowing Jesus. Um and recently the cosmic interpretation of Romans came out another explanation and then it just draw back the interpretation from the eye as the poor who received the salvation already to the eye not Paul who didn't receive salvation. So, so I want to play this audio uh for everyone to have a listen uh so you can probably understand the uh proposition the the the position of uh of those who held the cosmic view. How did they understand Romans chapter 7? It's a bit long uh but interesting to listen um because many may may may start to interpret Bible in a co very cosmic way or overly cosmic way and we need to be ready uh to respond to those um uh extreme interpretation. Uh so I will pause the recording and we will listen to this audio together. So it's done in a form of debate. So one party held the view that the eye is the poor after salvation. The other party held the cosmic view that the eye refers to a person who is not poor before the salvation. Okay, let's listen to it together. Let's come back to discussion. It's a quite long podcast. What do you think? Uh so let let me let me divide the section and ask you some question. So first is the cosmic um view to understand sin and the righteousness of God. So what what what what is the cosmic view to interpret sin and righteousness of God? And do you agree with what's that was summarized in the pre in the podcast just now? Uhhuh. Yeah. It's a good analogy. >> So it creates the whole non the whole environment that no matter how good you try to be within yourself is just under this control. >> Hold on. Hold on. Let's let's not run away from from sin. Do you want to add anything to her opinion? >> Uh I I think at the beginning there's one thing very important is uh the usual approach of sin is verb but longer discover it's a noun. It's us as a noun. Uh because the moral approach of sin is more like the acts of man. uh now seeing is person personified as a as a person as a as a power uh cosmic power to enslave human beings. Um and the podcast says Paul always use the capital letter C. Uh which probably if we want to while we study Romans chapter 7 also do part of uh change part of the text saying to Satan and feel whether it works and then basically in in some section in the chapter 7 if you want to replace sin with Satan it works perfectly. Uh so uh how how do you think about this interpretation? You agree with that or you agree with it partially or you disagree with it because it affects our further understanding of our salvation and righteousness of God. So the interpret the cosmic interpretation of sin. Uh what do you think about that? from I think um I think from from here we can we can see that God save us from this co save us from from the uh from the one from that from the company's power which is why she set up. >> Mhm. >> Do you think there is any limitation in this problem or limitation in this interpretation? When Paul talk about sin, did he only mention the capital sin or did he cover more? So in a podcast it may summarize it wrong but but Paul indeed used the capital scene. Why would in Chinese we can't really see but in English we can see uh and and so he he make it not just as multiple sins or the action of committing something bad but but it's it's a more like power if it's not a person it's a power so but is this the only way Paul describes Right. S in the book of Romans. Mhm. >> Right. This is not the only way. Very obvious. It's not the only way. >> The saying God's forgiven is not only this inference of power, this slavery. Indeed, it picture the fundamental work or or big part of the fundamental work God has done to to to capture the Morphe boss and and let set you free. But there is also the forgiveness of sin we've committed. We have committed sin that God has forgiven the sins we have committed. Right? this this uh for example Romans those those kind of verses were everywhere. For example, Romans chapter 3, Romans chapter 3 verse 25 uh God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. So this is just one of the example the sins committed beforehand unpunished. We have committed multiple sins. It's not just one one or all the inference because of this one. But this is the actual sin and moral uh failures we have committed that God has forgiven the sin and one by one right very specifically he has forgiven our sin. So we need to see two side. One is the cosmic power. Yesterday when we talk about Romans chapter 5 the second half we also talked about this. It's very important to see that aspects as the descendant of Adam there is this helplessness inside of us. Even the ones who did not commit the same sin as Adam is still sinner because we're living under this power. No matter how well the individual wills and behaves, we can't run away from this fortune. Uh and but at the same time Romans chapter 5, the major point Paul wants to hold is this uh grace is greater. So there is the great work Jesus has done and his obedience, his righteousness is imputed to us. Right? Because of him, we have the new dominion. We're living under the new power which is not enslaving us but setting us free and and and and rescuing us, leading us to uh to the life of abundance. Uh so so there is this important aspect that we need to see. to totally acknowledge that salvation is not what we can earn but this is the work of God but there is also another aspect that we shouldn't neglect and which is firstly argued by Paul this is the forgiveness of our sin the sins we've committed right from Romans chapter 1 say we spend a lot of time to talk about this deliberation You know, but you purposely sin. >> So the condemnation is without excuse. So means I I'm there committing sin by my own will. I acknowledge it. I'm not totally bound and the morphy boss command me to do the things I don't want to do. But I enjoy doing that. And sometimes even if I struggle, I decide to do it. So there is a of course there is the helplessness inside of some actions we we've taken but there is this responsibility dominantly responsibility uh inside of us. We choose to sin we purposely oppress and suppress suppress the truth and we sin and we need to be punished without excuse. Right? So, so and and God forgives us. It's not oops I accidentally killed the author of life but I planned it. I plotted I hate him. I have jealousy. I have hatred. I kill him. I don't want to take the responsibility. I pass it over. So that's the image of human beings. and to even that kind of sin sin of killing a son of God purposely with all the plots and evilness the loving father forgave us. So that's how powerful the forgiveness of God is. That's how powerful the love is. So we really need to see both side but primarily we really need to see the side of this forgiveness of sins we committed with our full responsibilities and then we come to this idea of righteousness of God. Righteousness of God. So what is the cosmic interpretation of the righteousness of God? >> The righteousness of God. >> No, I mean in the in the cosmic interpretation framework mentioned in forecast. Do you remember? Because this this is this is quite special and and and we need to know about this. cosmic interpretation of the righteousness of God. Uh so yesterday I already mentioned that the like the UFO people come and save you but but longer mentioned one idea is called God's salvific power and there is the discovery of Kunang literature. So in the old testament time the the corner ritual says uh people live in the sin long for the righteousness of god to deliver them from their sin. So if you so people long for the righteousness of god to deliver them from sin. The traditional picture people painted about the righteousness of God is this is part of the essence of God himself. His justice is righteous. The righteousness of God is in him and he use that righteousness to judge us because his righteous we are not. So we are condemned. But the colon literature and not just one occasion but several occasions pointing to the idea the righteousness of God will deliver us from our sin. So so it make the righteousness of God a delivering power right a salvific power. That's Ron Janaka's uh original text. Salvific power. Uh so so saving power will make it easier to understand. saving power to rescue us. And I think this is actually not a new discovery. This is a quite classic and ancient understanding of salvation. So Christ on the cross, he battle cosmet cosmologically and he won the battle. He rescue us from our sin. So fundamentally the power of uh sin and death is defeated by Jesus Christ on the cross. And what is the meaning of righteousness of God? Actually in Bible itself in Paul epistles it says Christ is is our righteousness. So Christ is the righteousness of God. So righteousness of God is not a state stat static state status a static stat static static description of God's nature or God's character. But righteousness of God is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God. And in in Corinthians Paul says he is our righteousness. So he also become our righteousness. In Romans chapter 3 we also discover this righteousness of God is given to us. Uh so let's look at Romans chapter 3. Romans chapter 3. So verse 26. Even though the word righteousness didn't appear here, but this concept is very obvious. Romans chapter 3 verse 26. He did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time. So this is his justice. um so as to be just and the one who justify those who have faith in in in Jesus. >> So this this just just come to us. So we are justified and chapter 3 verse 13 as 30 as well since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and uncircumcised through the same faith. So this just tr just comes to to us. This righteousness is not only in God but given to us. So to to interpret righteousness of God as a salvific power uh I think is not fully precise. The best interpretation more biblical interpretation is the righteousness of God is is Jesus. It's more than a power. It's not a flat to the uh status of God, character of God. It's not imperson. And it's more than a power. It's a person. The righteousness of God is Jesus Christ. He delivered us from our sin. And it carries the dynamic because this is the love of God. The love of God carries this dynamic. uh the person Jesus Christ step into the history and save us and build this relationship with us. Uh so I believe the cosmic uh interpretative interpretative framework is not some new discovery but it's quite classic and quite ancient but because for a long time uh the church approach sin and salvation in a very moralistic view especially the Catholic faith. So it makes people uh uh forget or or ignore this important part of the alien salvation uh God has given and this totally incapability inside of us to rescue ourself and make us approach the salvation of God in a very moralistic way. do good, be behave well, right? For a long time, Catholic church really present this kind of image. Uh so your effort, devotion, morality is so important. Uh your virtues and merits are so important. Uh but uh the biblical understanding of the salvation of God is more personal and dynamic. Uh and it's a person Jesus Christ. uh and and also the view on I right so what do you think I think for pastoral view you you all have no problem Luther's understanding but for this cosmic view to um uh I can't remember that complicated term to to say this I is the humanity in Adam was the one who was alive apart from the Lord and become dead when when law came and now the whole humanity finds the answer uh in Jesus Christ finds the liberation and celebrates this the rescue of Jesus Christ. How do you think about this interpretation? So, so in the podcast, right, the eye in a cosmic uh interpretive framework was in was understood as Adam, right? You remember how how Paul uh rhetorically speak as Adam or representing on behalf of the whole humanity who do not know God, >> who live without God. So what is the key verse that link to that interpretation? So Romans chapter 7 verse 9, correct? Romans chapter 7 verse 9. was broken from burn to life and I died. uh chapter 7 verse 999 once I was alive apart from the law but when the commandment came s to life and I died uh so he talked about Adam in the garden of Eden uh so and and the the the cosmic interpretation says in this way so before the commandment was given uh in in chap Genesis chapter 2. Uh he was alive. Adam was alive. But now because of the law given uh right but when a commandment came sin spr to life and I died. So how how do you think about this interpretation? Paul is actually not speaking about himself but speaking on behalf of the whole humanity in Adam. So basically this view says it's not about the Christian who received the salvation already but about the humanity uh not knowing God the humanity without God. How do you think about this interpretation? Yes, I hope you can exercise the way you think. Always when I ask the question about one verse, you need to look at the verses around. Not just imagine, oh, is it right or wrong? I'm hoping that this refers to >> what um The same opportunity of that you When you have the word of God actually uh before you hear the word of God, you already have s in your heart. You already have the sinful desire in your heart. And the the commandment the commandment the commandment comes this I think we are we also have this simple desire like you have the law regulates that you you shouldn't do something You you you must you must not do something. Your simple desire wants to challenge that commandment and to say >> to break the law. This is just our nature. >> So, so it's by linking verse 8, you think verse 9 is not about a man before the fall in the garden of Eden. even before the first very first commandment was given. So I think just now you quoted verse eight the verse before because this understanding of Paul is speaking on behalf of Adam the the the key verse we need to tackle is verse nine >> right the verse nine was the verse longer thought that was referring to Adam in the garden of Eden he was living well without problem with all the freedom until the commandment was introduced to him and Satan sees the opportunity to use the law to tempt Adam and let him fall. So he he thought this this verse nine is pointing to Adam to to a person before saving saving grace comes and to the whole humanity, right? And then just now yeah you you quoted chapter 7 verse8 to say no this is not just for the one who live in go garden of Eden long ago before the fall it was just the reality of the whole humanity even the Christians uh and and sin was there always but the law make it triggered they want to challenge God the word of God But >> I don't think law triggers the simple >> law just exposed. >> Yeah. >> Uhhuh. >> Uh I think in verse n I think the Adam before I think when God created Adam God already g already given him the command. Wow. >> Mhm. It's quite hard this way. >> What do you think? >> So the question is >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you agree with this interpretation? >> So rhetorically Paul is not speaking about his experience and he's not referring to a person who already received the saving grace but he's speaking of humanity without God. So, so basically before still the that view before salvation or after salvation >> verse yeah it's related to those and I think I struggle to explain that it's like a person in verse 9 is talking about so referring to everyone has received salvation when the law was given says that they um delight in God's law. >> Mhm. You think it's about a person who was saved already? >> It's about a person who was saved and has this conflicting Yeah. Inside of the person who was safe. So when we when we try to do the exoggetical paper and tackle at certain interpretation we disagree with usually we need to hold on to the key verse and tackle at the way they interpret it. So this cosmic a co cosmic interpretation of Romans chapter 7 of or of the whole Romans actually in verse in chapter 7 mainly two verses other places they they cut in and try to say hey this is about the eye before salvation. One is uh chapter 7 verse4 the other is chapter 7 verse 9. Yeah, maybe in the future you can listen to more debates and then you you know what point you need to capture. So, so in a in a uh counterargument how to critique on that. Then chapter 7 verse 9 is one verse and chapter 7 verse14 is the other verse. So look at chapter four uh chapter 17 sorry chapter 7 verse14. We know that the law is spiritual but I'm unspiritual sold as a slave to sin. So, so mainly the argument held on to these confession sold as a slave to sin and it says it contradict with the picture painted in chapter six you are no longer the slave of sin and why did Paul here in chapter seven says sold as a slave to sin so it seems that he's talking totally two different people one is the one saved in chapter six. The other is the one not saved in chapter 7. Right? This is one verse. And then the second verse we talked about just now, chapter 7 verse 9 and and the interpreter tried to think who is this person? Who is this person? And and and he concluded that was Adam. So is it a right interpretation? So firstly verse 14 how to solve the contradiction between the two image. One is the one who was set free no longer a slave to sin. The other is the person who confess I'm unspiritual sold as a slave to sin. Yeah. So, Romans chapter 6 is about a person who received the salvation already, right? And and Romans and then it says you're no longer a slave to sin, right? Uh yeah. Verse chapter 6 verse six uh 17 to 18. But thanks be to God that though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your alleg allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. So especially verse 18, you you have been set free from sin and become the slaves of righteousness. So you're no longer the slaves to sin. But in chapter 7 verse 14, it says I am unspiritual sold as a slave to sin. So the cosmic interpretation argue that these two people are different. Chapter six is about the people who is no longer the slave to sin. But chapter seven is about the people sold to sin. Sold as slave to sin. So that's why this cosmic uh interpretation says chapter seven is not about the person who is after saving grace but the person before. Right? That's the that's the key verse it took to have the whole interpretation of well it's not it's about the humanity before receiving salvation. Do you agree with it? Do you think this argument is valid? It certainly makes sense at a certain point that at least by text, right? Because these two sentence if you took them out if you take them out they they are different. One is not no longer slave to sin. The other is the slaves sold as slave to sin. But do you agree with this? If you think this is a valid argument then it contradict your view that this the pastoral uh interpretation of a person who is after being saved. What do you think? Yeah. Try to think about the context. Try to think about the context. Uh so >> yeah has changed but not changed. So chapter seven chapter seven When the argument about the law comes in, it's about it's more of this internal conflict that deals with the state. >> How do you know it's with state? >> Because no. >> Yeah. But that's the only assumption. You think it's talking about the one who is saved. >> But but now the interpretation challenge that assumption. Yeah. Right. So that's why you need to make the argument point out why it's wrong. So this is what you really need to do when you are studying theology. So why it's wrong. So if we take out the text, you really need to look at the way interpret the text and we try to tackle at that where it points. So go back to the verse first is the verse in chapter 6 and then the verse in chapter 7. So if we look at chapter six we read the whole passage uh chapter 6 verse 15 to verse 18. What then shall we sing? Um because we are not under the law but under grace. Firstly shall we sing? Is this thing a noun or verb? It's a verb right? It's a verb. So it says you should no longer sin because you are under grace. This is a choice. This is about obedience. This is not a a superpower rescuing you or a a superpower enslaving you. This is about your choice. And then by no means. So you shouldn't make that choice. Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slave of the one you obey? whether you are slaves to sin which leads to death or to obedience which leads to righteousness. So again this is actually not something without our acknowledgement or free will. This is with your freedom with your free will. You are already set free but what's your choice right? You obey who? So this slavery and mastery is not about a cosmic power. This is about your life choice. The body you have and the the bodies you have and the choice you have what are you going to choose to follow to serve. So it's like a Christian who is set free and then the time you have these two hours or these two days you have choice to use it for God or for your sinful desire for yourself and right at almost the end of the audio it talk about the concept of flesh which differs from physical body and it talk about the physical action which is spiritual and the spiritual activities which is worry flesh like like flesh right you can do theological study philosophical thoughts totally go against God not glorifying God and this is flesh but you can do the labor washing the feet for one another or doing or taking care of kids or doing heavy labor but it's highly spiritual because it's glorifying God so the vocabulary the the word um flesh is actually not about biology ological body. It's about the nature, the sinful nature. And here when we come back to this slavery and mastery image, it's not about the salvific power or cosmic power to enslave you. It's about your choice how to use your bodies. And then uh verse 17, but thanks be to God that though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. Uh you have set you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. So what is about this is your heart. This is the change of heart. You recognize God as your new owner. So from your heart, you absolutely love God and try to obey him. But what about your body? Then that's that comes verse 9. I'm using an example from everyday life because of your human limitation. Just as you used to offer yourself as slaves to impurity and to ever increasing wickedness, so now offer yourself as slaves to uh righteousness leading to holiness. So offer yourself as slaves. This is this is your choice. So Paul is actually talking about two things. One is this slavery under the power of sin. that you can't rescue yourself, right? There is this image. But in chapter six on the journey of sanctification, he's talking about with your choice, who do you want to serve? Just like in the past from your heart, from your body, your whole self is serving sin as a slave. You're enslaved, totally captured. You have no choice but you just love sin. You just commit sin. But now in your heart you already obey. So in your body, make the choice to use your body to to submit to God, right? So offer your body to offer yourself as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. So if Christ has set us free, that's use the freedom not to indulge in sin but love one another. So Galatians have exactly same teaching just expressed in different form. So offer yourself as slaves. So this is not the slave slaves. God made you into the slave of righteousness. But you willingly choose to serve God and be the slaves. When you were slaves to sin. So this is the helpless status. When you were slaves to sin, you were you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at the time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness and the and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. So that that's the interpretation of the verse. Uh we are no longer a slave. So we need to be clear what is talking about right it's not the for foreign power uh that we are totally out of control but it is the call for the Christian to use utilize their freedom to serve and to make their bodies the slaves and and vers chapter 7 come to chapter 7 verse1 14 so we know that the law is spiritual but I'm unspiritual sold as is slave to sin. So this eye the whole passage chapter 7 verse4 to verse 25 even if there is I and we try to figure out who this eye is. But if you dig deeply into this passage this eye actually contains two eyes. There are two eyes right? uh I do not understand what I do for what I want to do I do do not do. One is the eye in my heart obeying to God. The other eye is the eye. Of course, it's the same person, but the other image of I is the eye which is unspiritual sold as slave to sin. And what is this? At the end of chapter seven, right before chapter eight, actually Paul make it very clear. But so then I myself in my mind I'm a slave to God's law. But in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. So am I a slave? Yes and no. Right? You can't say six and seven the expression contradict you can only have one uh state status but no apparently chapter 7 the last part of chapter 7 clearly says there is two image inside I one is the slave to God's law the other is the slave to the law of sin right so you are slave you are due slave one to to God's holy law the other to to the law of sin. So simply saying there is I willing to obey God. There is I rebellious against God and what is this and this is flesh. So uh chapter 8 deals with that the spirit set us free. So this body which carry the sinful habits which live under the uh the the the with the tendency of the flesh committing sin is dealt with by the power of the holy spirit in chapter 8. So I think the interpretation taking out these two verses simply saying uh this is the eye before salvation this is the eye of the h humanity the hermenututical technology is wrong because it it just didn't understand the context and and and now if we are clear uh so who who we are now as a Christian so we actually have this struggle because of the heart to obey God's law. There is the struggle and the overarching topic Paul kept saying about in the whole Romans is gospel does not abolish the law. So those who are living under the power of the gospel apart from the law, do we still need to keep the law? That's the big question of uh Romans chapter 7. Yeah. >> 20 >> five >> five. >> Yeah. >> But do you think the that's quite related to the Nostism? The Nostism they maybe they use this words to as an excuse like >> yeah my heart is saved. My body doesn't matter. my body doesn't matter because Romans chapter 7 verse 2012 is a process the same thing >> yeah that's why there is Romans chapter 28 even your body is dealt with >> Romans >> chapter eight >> chapter eight >> that's why it doesn't end there so Paul doesn't end that oh I'm a slave to God's law I'm happy now I I make it clear my heart wants to surrender to God that's enough but my body just go go decay go to going to be decay because it goes to the law of sin no there is Romans chapter 8 so Romans chapter 8 is quite important you're not safe in your heart obedience in heart is not enough because if you says I obey God's law in my heart so it so my body goes to hell goes to decay. It doesn't make sense, right? This this is the typical dualist dualistic view, gnostic view. But God the the Hebrewic view of body and material world is is temporary, is mortal, but it's made by God and it is good. It is good. When God made everything, God God says it is good. So something God says good, can we just let it go to be controlled by the sinful habits and goes with a tendency with being dragged by the flesh? No, it needs redemption. So this is the whole idea of redemption. Our body needs to be redeemed. The whole earth need to be redeemed. So what does redeem mean? something bad and exchange and promoted right when we talk about this. So the world originally designed and created by God with good purpose and God saw it as as good now became corrupt and part of it the most corrupt part is our our flesh our not our flesh our body our body carry the sinful habit. So it become my mind wants to wake up early in the morning to worship God. But apparently what drag me down. It's not my heart. It's body feel cold, feel sick, feel tired. And a lot of people says if my body feels stronger, I can get up. If you sleep really really early, you have a very good sleep, easier for you to get up, right? This is a body. But my body doesn't want to follow the sinful habit. a selfish habit. I want to follow God and follow my heart which want to surrender to God. So what should I do? I need the Holy Spirit. So that's the right view, right? A Christian think, oh my body is heavy and sleepy. I need to deal with this to get up early. That's the right thoughts. But the Christian think my heart already worship the Lord. Can I just stay in bed? Right? A lot of Christian actually thought in this way and they justify it. They felt my heart is pure. My body let it let it be. Let it die. >> It's like it's like when I was in you can't go to church. We can't go to church on Sunday. >> But this is very far feel lazy to go. >> Lord knows I worship you here in my heart. >> In my heart. >> That's a lot of Christians say I worship you in my heart. But they they calculated about the petrol price. The attendance of church dropped recently because of the petrol price. You love money more than God. It's very obvious. It's so apparent for those Christians who knows the important of body, the presence of body to worship God. They couldn't tell. What are they saying? That's terrible. You care about the pure price. You don't care about God, but they have the beautiful saying, God, I worship you in my heart and you know my heart. So, so Romans chapter 7 is actually dealing with us. No, not your heart. Your heart is soft already. Your body, your body carries the sinful habits and you need to solve it. But you can't solve it by your own effort. So you need the Holy Spirit and your body needs redemption. It's not like your body needs re uh needs atonement. No, your body needs redemption and the whole earth the creation are waiting for the redemption. So and and also in the Bible there is the saying redeem the time. How can a time a non-person being be redeemed? The whole material world needs to be redeemed because God made it with his beautiful purpose. But they are not used for that beautiful purpose because of the fall of men. So we need redemption. Holy Spirit is doing the work of redemption. Actually more than Holy Spirit the triune God. But in chapter eight, he highly emphasized the Holy Spirit to make the the unspiritual world spiritual. So when we say uh the resurrected body is a spiritual body, it doesn't mean the resurrect body is a spirit. It means it's spiritual in the sense of spiritual and unspiritual. Flesh is unspiritual. You may be doing all the mind work, all the noble work, but it's very unspiritual. It belongs to the realm of flesh. But you may be doing the physical word work, but it's highly spiritual because it's a worship to God. So in chapter uh 8, we find this this body bodily redemption. Uh and it's this is very important. That's why when we trace back and look at Romans chapter 7 is definitely the chapter about the one who is saved who received Jesus Christ and their body needs to be dealt with and before you deal with your body in chapter eight there is one thing you need to deal with that's about obeying the law you obey the law in your heart so is it important to obey the law with your body right because we felt it's difficult to obey the law in our body. We we we tell the lie that God you know my heart my heart loves you. So Romans chapter 7 brought this big question in Christian. Do we still need the law? Is the law abolished or in other words do I still need to keep the law? The answer is a big yes but not very simple. Right. So your view and your attitudes and your action regarding the holy law of God. Do we need to keep the law or if we translate into our language or our context, our pastoral and devotional context is other spiritual standards important? Do they matter? Some people say no. They don't. They doesn't matter because I love God in my heart. You know my heart. But we say no the standards matter. But as we hold on to the standard, we don't abolish them. We have the struggle, right? We feel enslaved again. We feel, wow, I used to have freedom and now I feel I'm so tired. I I need to if I don't wake up I know I break the morning service and I I need to repent so I should repent I should keep this again we we start to be confused and we felt I felt my life without the law is better now I became a Christian and it seems not enough for just my heart to love God when I try to use my body to love God and abide to all the standards, I start to hate God again or I start to hate this kind of Christian life again. I felt I lost the freedom. That's exactly what Romans chapter 7 is about. If you really know what what scenario it is, then every sentence makes sense, right? The whole Romans chapter 7 makes sense. So there is a big question we need to deal with here. Do we abolish the law? And if we want to translate into our context as Christians, do I need to keep the wholeness? Right? I will not say standards otherwise you may fail holiness. Um uh do I need to keep do I still need to keep the holiness um as a saved Christian? So isn't God love? Isn't that God love me already regardless my work? Regardless my works, uh, should I still need to keep all of this? Right? So, so that the same question, isn't it enough? Isn't it enough to love God just with my heart and because God knows my heart? This is a big question, right? So, so that's what Romans chapter 7 needs to deal with. And the answer the answer is we we we don't abolish the law or or in another way, do we still need to keep the law, right? Do we still need to keep the law? And the answer is yes. But it's not that simple because we may fall into confusion and struggle again and how how should we understand this people without struggle by saying God knows my heart. They apparently didn't experience the whole bunch of work of Holy Spirit in chapter eight because they don't even struggle. They they feel they already love God and God already knows their heart. Right? So, so, so okay then then that there's no problem then you solve but but this is not a solution. So Romans chapter 8 talk really strongly to those who actually struggle. So struggle because of the conflicts is not a problem. That's the right way. But how how can we understand this? So firstly Paul actually talked about the new relationship. what we abolished is not the law but a lawful relationship. That's the whole analogy of marriage. uh Romans chapter 7 verse 1 to verse uh verse 6 right so what's abolished is not the law but the lawful relationships with God so this This is fundamental. This has to be taught first. Uh, taught first. So, so I no longer have the lawful relationship with God. It's just like the husband is dead. So, the husband is dead. Doesn't mean that the law is dead. But to me, the law is dead, right? To me, he's dead because he can he can no longer master me. He can no longer kill me. My relationship with God is not defined by works. No longer lawful, but my relationship with God is is is the loving relationship. Relationship of love. It's like I ask my kids to do housework and I hire a person to clean the the room. So the phone may be similar but the whole purpose and relationship is different. The person who did not clean the place well if I say oh this is not clean the person's immediate reaction is I need to come back to work on it otherwise my pay will be deducted right this is work relationship right hire hiring relationship but my kids they may feel annoyed why I call them back but the purpose is I want you to get things done properly this this is something you need to learn right I can just pick it up doesn't matter it's not just for I always explain to them it's not for the room it's for you and who lives in this room you are living in the room I don't care so and a lot of time members also misunderstood when I correct that mistake when I asked them to return to work they felt they were judged but the whole purpose is if I just want to do the work, I will just get someone who is capable to do it to get it done or I can just do it. But I why do I not bother myself so much to to bother you again again? I got misunderstood by you got said by you as pastor face is judging me again. Why do I need to trouble myself so much? This is for you. This is a new relationship. It it seems that it's done in the same form but they are totally different. So Paul make it clear our relationship with God is is no longer lawful relationship. When God require me to be holy is not as a exchange of his salvation. It's because of his love. He loves me and he is holy. So he wants me to be like him. He wants me to be like his son. That's that's his love. So when we when we study Romans, we use the analogy. God's love doesn't want you to be a guest of the hotel. He wants you to be the owner of the palace. But which one is easier? If we have the habit of flesh, the sinful habit, we we will pick the first one. I want to be the guest of the hotel. I I want to come and go. I want to just throw the rubbish and a cleaner will come and I pay my money. I can just just go. I don't want to pay responsibility. Um but God's love extend to the the the area of the holistic salvation of every everything in our life. He wants to make us the owner, the heir, uh the co-air with Christ. But being the owner of the house or being the owner of a palace, what happened is oh my there are so many things need to learn and so many things need to do like it's terrible. Life is terrible. Why can't I just be a bagger on the street? Why can't why can't I just get the money from you? You pay my hotel. Isn't that easy, God? This is the question in many Christians heart. Can't you just give me money and let me leave in a hotel? Make my life easy. Why do you bother me to learn this? Learn that learn management. Learn tax law. Learn how to maintain the building. Learn how to manage the servants and and and then when something breaks, I need to fix it. This is all about the whole palace. He's going to give me the whole palace, right? The universe, the management of the whole universe is entrusted to Jesus Christ and he wants to share this with us. That's glory. So that's Romans chapter 8. And because of this glorious calling and this predestination of God to make us into the likeness of his son including the ownership of the palace including all the sufferings and glory that we feel our life is pretty troubled and we start to realize I need Holy Spirit. I I definitely need God's help. I can't do it. I need the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, if you just let God pay the bill in the hotel, you don't need help. You don't feel difficult. You feel, oh, praise God. Can't I just praise you in the same way every day? So, so this is the sinful habit. This is a sinful nature inside of us which need to be dealt with. And Romans chapter 7 make it really, really clear. And he sets a foundation that when God require you to be holy, he actually requires you to be like him, he's not requiring you to do something impossible and difficult and shame you and condemn you because the relationship has changed already. So that's Romans chapter 7 verse 1-6. And then Romans chapter 7 uh 7 to uh to 13 to 13. This is Paul really want to say we're not throwing away the law. Law is good. I I just make it simple. Law is good. We are not abolishing the law. we still keep the law. Uh and it talks about the function of the law. And when you try to keep the law, what's what happened? What happened is uh in chapter three he argues the function of the law is to make sin acknowledged, right? Make it exposed. Make it acknowledged. But now in chapter seven, it it elevates right the the function of the law to expose sin in a form that he even expose the very dynamic side of the sin right when the law is given this rebellions in us this fundamental sin in us is triggered is revealed so law is not just revealed the branches of the sinful tree law is Reveal law is to reveal the root the disobedience and how how does that work? And you never think about touching the wet paint until it says do not touch, right? You never think about driving uh to heat the pole until you realize I shouldn't I shouldn't hit it. I shouldn't hit it. I should I hit it. And you put a toy on the highest shelf and no kids would like to to touch it until you tell the kids you can play all the toys in a room but do not touch that and they start to fight climb and fight and do all the things to touch that and all other toys seems not enjoyable at all. So and what is that? That's that's the comforting heart, right? That's the rebellions inside of us. Not being grateful of all the things God has given to me but still remain this covetous coveret in my heart to desire the thing he asked me not to touch and not to eat. So uh chapter 3 Romans chapter 3 it says the function of the law is to make it is to make sin uh realized right realized you are c cautious conscience of sin but Romans chapter 7 exposed the ultimate sin of rebal and here Paul use uh comforting heartets and that's exactly the heart of Adam. So we can see in Bible especially in Romans uh sin the fundamental sin or the sinful nature is described in different form in chapter one it's the godlessness and in chapter five it's disobedient disobedience and in chapter seven coveret and they are talking about the same thing right Adam's heart is a coveting heart Because God gave him everything to enjoy and to manage, but he coveret for the very thing God forbade forbade him to touch and to eat. And actually he probably didn't think about it that much until Satan come and tempt him. But after Adam, this sin of rebellions is in us, right? So whenever God said something we shouldn't do and we want to go against him, I found something very interesting. For example, um uh several days ago, Caleb who actually I found out he had around 1,000 saving very rich because all the red pack he collected and all the red pack he collected from other kids. So he became the richest guy among the kids. And then he went out with the kids. He spent quite a lot. Probably I guess $400. >> $400. >> Yeah. Yeah. I estimated probably he spent $400 spending for not just for himself. Actually he spend just small amount a certain amount for himself but he spent more than $200 for petrol for everyone. Uh, and then he spent money to buy ice cream and he he spent a last bit of money to buy ice cream for everyone. So, and he only have the coins less than probably $2 left. So, he was quite generous and he buy he bought toys for his friends. So, and then felt well it's that's that's not bad. And and what I want to say is this, he enjoying the freedom to use the money. If I say, "Kayla, how about I give you $100 to buy the thing you want and another $300, $200 for the petrol, $100 for your friends?" And he probably felt unhappy. So the ending result is the same. The way to spend money to allocate the money is the same. But he wants that autonomy. And people who refuse to offer their life to God, you may say they still were generous. They they even didn't give Thai well, but they were generous. They spend 90% of the money shouting meal for for members in the church, but they just refuse to give 10% donation. And this psychology inside is this this autonomy I want to hold in my hand in mastering epic coins in my pocket. I don't even want to give 10% to God because I tell myself I anyway give 90% for my friends not for myself but that's the mindset time wise as well you may ended up eventually doing a lot of work helping others but you don't want to commit your life to God to let him use you and you may ended up doing something pretty terrible without the guidance of your leader But you just don't want to do the things you know the guidance is good you just don't want to do it. So, so right this this hycology is in us and this is this is the thing this is the fundamental thing of coverets something good we don't want to have or we don't we don't feel grateful about but I want the thing I shouldn't have and when the law comes it expose the ultimate sin of rebellion the coet so People spend money to suffer and they are happy but they they are not happy to serve others. They're not happy to serve others. Just suffer a little bit to serve others. They can spend money buying the suffering for themsel and for their kids, but they don't want to let their kids serve others because they felt they enslaved. Right? So that that's the rebalance inside of us. That's the ultimate thing uh the law exposed. So um verse 13 verse 13 did that which is good then become death to me by no means nevertheless in order that sin might be recognized as sin. So this sin uh fundamentally is rebellious and coveret it used what is good to bring about my death. So that through the commandments sin might become utterly sinful. sin might become utterly sinful. Uh so the morality or the behavior rules and principles may expose uh sin to a certain degree. But for those who are devout Jews who are abide with many standards in the law, they may still boast because they tick all the boxes. But this one box Paul realized he couldn't take when the sin comes the covetous heart is revealed. Uh so and then he acknowledged oh I I now know what is coveret. Uh so for I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said you shall not coveret. uh his light his eyes were enlightened and he now look at the law given by God and he found wow even in the ten commandment the tenth one is about the heart and it's about such a fundamental thing inside of Adam and inside of me that I couldn't I couldn't abide with that standard that law u and his declaration is here uh verse 12 he make it really clear so then the law is holy and the commandment is holy righteous and good. So holy, righteous and good. Not not something to be thrown away but something to be kept. And then the all the struggle later happened in those who want to obey. Chapter 5 talk uh it talks to those who want to obey the law not those who don't want to obey who don't want to obey they already declare the victory I love I love you in my heart you know my heart those who want to obey they struggle and they feel burdensome they felt terrible my life become even wor worse after becoming a Christian, I'm splitted. I desire so much uh to obey God's law. I felt I love God so much and that's genuine. I felt that's genuine. That's not an illusion. But my reality is also genuine. I realize I can't love the Lord. So, so I felt pretty bad. Terrible. Terrible. Okay. So, so and Romans chapter 7 verse4 to 25 talk to those people who are saved and who do do want to obey and and but still can't and and then the whole chapter eight therefore is talking to those who want to obey and with the power of the Holy Spirit uh they their body is redeemed. Uh yeah. So that's Romans chapter 7. It's it's a very important uh p passage. And then we also need to uh look at the pastoral function of this passage not merely as a superficial comfort. Hey Paul struggle so you struggle as well. So you struggle because of your past sinful habits but you also need to struggle when you offer your body as the holy instruments. when you walk the path of faith, when you acknowledge the holiness of the law and you struggle. So the comfort is not doesn't matter. God knows your heart. It doesn't matter your body. Right? A lot of Christian counselor and pastor actually comfort people in the wrong way creating the superficial uh peace but it didn't lead their life to spiritual victory. The true spiritual victory is under the help of the Holy Spirit. It may go through the failures and frustrations and struggles and even doubts uh but unless you know that you are limited, you will not cry out for the help from God. Okay. How about we Well, the time is uh we take a five minutes break and come back and finish Romans chapter 8. Let's pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you for the time we can have to look into the debate of who I is in Romans chapter 7. And father allowed us to learn uh to think and argue biblically and allow us to uh use the theological study to have the habit to exam our life with your with the lens of your word. And father in this very confusing matter um that many Christians uh try to deceive themselves with the superficial peace. Father, allow us to learn well Romans chapter 7 and teach the right doctrine. Um, in the name of Jesus Christ we prayed. Amen.