Space Insurance in a changing space environment

human advancement can be measured in technological progress since the start of the digital economy we've been creating the right conditions for Innovation to thrive and deliver positive change by creating policy Regulatory and legal Frameworks that keep things stable predictable Fair and scalable and these Pathways we create Drive economic growth and build better societies behind the breakthroughs and ahead of the curve access partnership is playing a critical role in a critical space at a critical time good afternoon everyone I would like to welcome all our viewers and listeners to the space Insurance in a changing space environment webinar and I would like to invite everyone to submit questions um during the panel um through the comment section or our chat I'm Ria Urban I'm a freelance space journalist and have been for a while and I'm just relaunching my uh rocket Ria YouTube and podcast channel so follow me on social media for updates on that but today is not about me um we're going to discuss the evolving landscape of space insurance instead and this event event aims to explore critical topics and emerging Trends in the space industry focusing on the perspectives of space operators and insurers and because space insurance is an indispensable component of the space industry um safeguarding Investments and managing risks associated with space missions we are going to address the dynamic challenges and opportunities within the space insurance sector as it adapts to the evolving space environment the objectives for today are to disseminate uh valuable insights and knowledge about space insurance as well as to Showcase a recent in-depth report that analyzes Trends challenges and opportunities within the space Insurance sector and we will also Foster discussion on the potential impacts of the UK space agency's third party liability models changes on the global space industry and facilitate knowledge sharing and networking among industry experts government representatives and stakeholders and by the end of this webinar we're hoping to gain a deeper understanding of the evolving landscape of space insurance we will be informed about the recent report and its findings uh that aids uh decision-making processes grasp the potential impact of the uksa consultation on the space industry and establish connections with key St stakeholders in the space Insurance sector and I'm not going to be alone um doing this today uh we have four panelists we have Steve plant um the orbital liabilities lead of the UK space agency um he is developing the secondary legislation and policy on liabilities and insurance to support the space industry act 2018 Steve has over 20 years policy experience in the UK Civil Service um with previous roles covering animal health issues development of cultural programs and carbon trading policy hi Steve um our second panelist is Neil Stevens head of space at Price Forbes um he's a trained lawyer and commercial contracts expert he is a space law specialist and has extensive experience in space Insurance Neil has advised governments as well as National and International Space agencies welcome Neil um our third panelist is Dominic rora uh the senior insurance underwriter for space related products and industries that ex Exel his responsibilities include negotiating and managing insurance contracts with Worldwide customers and his Specialties include contract negotiation and insurance portfolio management hi Dominque and last but not least we have Hamza Hamid um he's a senior policy manager for satellite and Telecommunications at access partnership in Singapore he is a Pakistani lawyer currently serving as the chair of the space generation advisory Council and before joining access partnership Hamza worked as a legal consultant at The International Institute for the unification of private law in Rome he led the effort towards establishing an International System of secure transactions law for the space sector while also advising governments on issues related to spacecraft financing blockchain law and crypto law hi Hamza I'm so glad you're all here have I left anything out from the introductions or are you happy happy okay good thank you let let's get cracking so my first question is to Dominique if that's all right um so given the evolving Space Landscape uh what were the standout Trends um and developments in 2020 3 from the perspective of insuring space assets so thanks for for inviting me first of all uh for 2023 I would say it's a mixed bag because uh on the one hand the business is booming I mean the number of launches is uh is increasing more and more each year uh the number of satellites launched is is always uh is always always increasing uh we're seeing new launchers like uh the maiden Flight of the H3 and the Starship um this which were earlier this year uh we have a vcon in December we have ear and six next year we're seeing many uh many startups as well like uh the um EPS or smaller launches like uh the RFA or space in in Europe rocket lab in New Zealand we have new generations of Technologies with uh softwar defined satellites new types of missions going to the moon going to to asteroid mining permanent space stations that that kind of things um now when I look at it from my own window as an insurer uh the big issue that has been uh on every one's mind since the middle of the year year is profitability uh it's no secret that there's been a number of major losses this year and many people are reviewing their plans um we have reviewed them at X EXL and we have decided to continue our commitment to this line of business going forward uh but and the challenge is now to work with uh with Brokers and with our clients to find a way that's sustainable for everybody that's right thank you does anyone else want to add anything I forgot to say that you know the questions I direct it to um someone all the time but everyone else is free to chip in um right just following on from this Neil I would like to ask you from a liability insurance perspective how have events in 2023 such as increas in um space launches as well as increase in space that influence the risk lens that c like landscape I can speak English uh for space operations yeah so um just looking at uh back across 2023 and this number keeps changing almost by the day we've had 87 uh Falcon 9 launches and now 20 it's launched 284 times so there's a massive increase in the Cadence um Falcon 99's being the um most successful these are stats from Wikipedia so you can you might need to sense check them a 99.3 success rate um and in terms of the numbers of of launches I mean we going back to um maybe 2010 2014 that sort of um period we used to see far fewer launches so with the likes of the Aran 5 proton and C launch were the main launch Vehicles launching to Geo now we've the focus is really on low earth orbit um so we've had a number of trans uh transport emissions which take small um satellites up to low earth orbit multiple payloads and I think the in terms of um the trend certainly um if you look at the EA debris report is for an increase in the amount of debris so more more um debris I think greater congestion um around the 550 kilometer altitude uh level um but certainly in terms of um losses and I I would say this not in terms of liability because there's been relatively few over over time but the losses have come from Geo and they've all come from post loss or post separation uh events um in terms of what I describe as the new space Arena and that's one of the areas that we really focus on um there's been a couple of insurers have certainly declined to underwrite new space and that's largely for reasons of congestion in the in the low earth orbit area I'm not sure whether that's something that will be sustained but it makes um issues like maneuverability much more important important um there's much more of a focus on that um now from the insurers that are engaging with the new space community so I'd say those are really um the fact of driving um a change in sort of the liability um environment um as far as space insurance is concerned right thank you and I have a general question to anyone in everyone here um how do you see the European regulatory environment uh evolv for insuring space assets and what impact might this have on insurance strategies good question um I I'll take that one then nobody else is going to um so I think um in terms of um European regulation I think there's much more harmonization now we're seeing um space agencies actually collectively working together and um I think we've got a great um UK space agency um Steve's worked very hard on um on the things he's been doing but I think um my perception is that there's a lot more collaboration rather than sort of um competitive um you know everybody still wants to see business move to their country but I think there's more collaboration now than than we've ever seen thank you and before I go sorry sorry just to come on that sorry to interrupt um yeah just to just to talk about perhaps the UK perspective on on things um just just for just for a minute I think um uh obviously as as Neila said you one of the key elements is around collaboration and there is a lot of collaboration across across the different jurisdictions and um particularly now we're where missions are involving more than one jurisdiction so for example one of the the key things that's being looked at at the moment one of the uh the key Services Under development from a technological and delivery perspective is around active debring removal for example where you over the course of time what we will be seeing is that there will be uh you to remove satellites uh you there will be jurisdictional issues relating to those those sorts of operations and so one of the things that we've been working on from the from the UK perspective is given given you know within such operations they are highly complex from a technical perspective uh but when you then include other jurisdictions that complexity increases so how can you how can you manage that complexity in a way which is both fair and Equitable um but also you reduce the the the the the burdens as much as possible so one of the things that we've been looking at uh for example is working with New Zealand on a on a joint Arrangement um in terms of setting out the principles for how such missions would be managed from a practical point of view because obviously we've got the context of international law in particularly on the looking at the liabilities uh that arise through such missions potentially third party um how can you share those liabilities in a fair and equable way um when you may be removing objects for example the law was 50 60 years ago and there had been no intention of removing those or interacting with those with those objects in any way shape or form and then take into account both yeah the the the legal and Regulatory Frameworks for the jurisdictions involved in that particular in in that particular Mission so I think one of the things that we are seeing is that where you you have this um these greater interactions between different space objects from different jurisdictions that from The Innovation perspective then yeah we also need to follow that up with with uh with with other regulatory Alternatives than what otherwise be been put in place previously so again that that's one example of areas where there is you this increased collaboration between the between different between different jurisdictions that's great thank you very much just you know quickly chime in here I think what what was mentioned is is so important particularly from a legal and and Regulatory perspective I think when you speak of space Insurance you really have to you know ask yourself the the thinking that a lot of States deploy behind why you know States put minimum requirements particularly for third party liability insurance on on Space operators and satellite uh operators and in all of that like like Steve said comes from international law It's a combination of the outer space treaty and the ability convention both of which then create these obligations for states to uh you know authorize and continuously supervise the activities of of space companies from within their jurisdictions and and under the under these treaties States can be held liable for an unlimited amount should there be you know damage caused by one spacecraft to another spacecraft or or or something of the sort and and that's where these insurance requirements stem from and then at the same time uh outer space law has this concept which which says once a launching State always a launching State and so when you see all of these Innovations come through where multiple jurisdictions are working on projects together where in the future you know satellites start to change ownership in space space objects start being deployed on celestial bodies that might trade ownership collaboration Corporation is so important and then the establishment of the types of uh regulations and schemes like like Neil and Steve were talking about that that showcase States working together having joint programs that that offers certainty to to the status of these spacecraft so I think you know the regulatory developments even in Europe point to this direction and are really really uh promising to see and then I think should continue in this direction to continue to promote Innovation right thank you um Hamza I will stay with you because my next question is um to you so um we we see collaboration obviously International collaboration but we also see collaboration between government policies and the insurance sector right um so what role do these policies play in spurring Innovation yeah I think you know just just building on from from what said having worked a lot with governments in my past life and now uh a lot with the private sector in in my work at access part parip that that collaboration and cooperation between governments and the private sector in shaping policy really does play an important role in in stimulating Innovation and in being an enabler for Innovation so think government policies are what put together uh the environment in which things such as base insurance but but policy in general operates and I think government policies can stimulate in innovation in the space sector by setting ambitious goals and standards so for instance policies that encourage or mandate sustainability practices such as debris mitigation push companies to develop new technologies and methodologies to pursue these activities I think similarly policies that facilitate new forms of space activities like on orbit servicing lunar exploration also open up new markets for innovation I think there's also a lot of role government policies play in sparring and encouraging Innovation through promoting programs for startups and smaller companies that are often at the Forefront of innovation but sometimes that the financial resilience that that larger companies have um at the same time I think um from from a government perspective it's always very important to balance regulation with flexibility and it's only where you strike that balance correctly that you continue to encourage Innovation but at the same time you cannot under regulate because then then then the risk that you're sort of promoting within the industry is is greater and I think finally and then you know this we already talked about um International collaboration and standard setting from a government perspective can always you know encourage uh growth within different markets to happen together and then thereby you know resulting in the creation of businesses that work across borders and then contribute to growth I think the space sector is inherently Global and international collaboration policymaking is essential and and that can come through industry initiatives and in in talking to the industry where governments collect advice and and learn where the industry is moving towards and then put together regulation that complements the growth of the industry rather than restricting it and then I think from from an insurance perspective which is you know what we're talking about in this webinar regulations and requirements for space Insurance need to be mindful of the nature of the space industry at any given point in time we we see jurisdictions where still the minimum requirement for third party liability what was set where the space industry was all Geo and then you know those GE stationary sat third party liability requirements might work for operators that are big and produce one satellite every three or four years but just don't work or are not feasible for small satellite operators that might be thinking of launching multiple satellites every year so I think regulation evolves and Industry feeds into that so I think that collaboration and cooperation there is super important thank you very much sorry can I just just um s reinforce what Hamza said there I think um there a couple of key things are I think one of the things is flexibility and certainly looking from the UK perspective um one of the things that we've tried to to really do in terms of our regulatory framework is to keep it outcome focused so rather than prescribing how the way the operators do things is actually these are the sort of things you need to consider and then demonstrate to the regulator how you're mitigating the risks uh down to to as low as reasonably practicable from the UK perspective and so in that way um using the framework we've got the legislation and the guidance Etc and all of course set it within the context of the international legal framework as well is that we've been able to apply those Frameworks to to um to situations and Mission types where we haven't got extensive guidance in place for example so for example looking at uh you know the licensing of large constellations um in orbit demonstration missions for active debut removal things like that so I think the UK very much views regulation as a key enabler activity because otherwise from the UK perspective such activity will be prohibited and so keeping it at that level which you know leads to the outcome Focus then gives us that flexibility to to adapt over time but I think also another thing that ham pointed out as well is keeping that under review and that's one of the things that the UK is doing at the moment so we've got the space industry act uh 2018 that's been in place now for five years um but we're now at a review point for that so we're engaging extensively with the space sector to say okay we've started to use that that piece of framework yeah that that groundbreaking legislation to support launch activities from the UK and satellite operations things like that is that is it does that still deliver what you as a sector need how does it need to adapt to keep up with the pace of development so by actively reaching out to the sector and engaging and saying what do you need to help support what you intend you what you want to do on both the the the the legislation but also other things as well uh in terms of financing and things like that plus the insurance Market things like that um gives that that and taking that real holistic approach um really I think yeah provides that that endtoend capability Etc that um that the sector is really looking for so that's certainly something we're looking to do from from the UK perspective I would add one thing on that is that as an insurer uh the way we see ourselves in that in that respect is to provide our expertise to the uh to The Regulators uh all over all across Europe uh just to provide our own input just like manufacturers and operators need to provide their own inputs uh and at the end of the day we um we need to find a solution together that is uh that is workable for everybody uh where and where each player each stakeholder uh can uh well can take his own responsibilities and uh you know uh keep the risk manage the risk transfer the risk U across the board in a in a consistent and in a consistent manner in some in a way that is efficient and a way that is that is sort of common across across all jurisdictions I would say right thank you and so just come on that as well I think one of the interesting um we we do a lot of work with yusa for example and and the work they they uh do is is invaluable in terms of um providing technical assistance and things like that to to new space varing Nations um so the UK has funded a number of different projects in that particular area and one of the things that that unua doeses really Advocate is putting in place these legal Frameworks to provide the clarity to operators Etc and so we've certainly been engaged in a number of uh conversations with with a number of jurisdictions to help them into that process of either introducing uh new um new regulatory Frameworks along with other other space VAR Nations as well so again that that sense of collaboration come comes into this as well um but then also for those who are looking to update as well and one of the one of the um the key topics that's always discussed is actually liability and insurance so um so I think it's it's certainly an area that's gaining a lot of traction and interest obviously how that then ultimately translates into regulation Etc is to be seen but I think it's certainly an area now where uh uh a large number of nations are really looking at this very seriously now as the number of operators uh increases within within jurisdictions so I think yeah to underline what doni said there I think you that discussion between all the parties is really important to understand that there is that support needed Etc so we've certainly done a lot of doing a lot of Engagement with insurers um around particular policy areas for example so I think that that's really key moving forwards as well thank you um Steve I I want to stay with you if that's all right so um just to talk about the consultation for a bit so the UK space agency launched um a consultation on modifying its third- party liability model um could you give us um the background of this consultation and tell us what will happen after it closes on the 7th of December what are the global implications of this yes thanks R um yeah so um in terms of the the consultation it's it's quite a a broad ranging consultation actually so it's looking at a number of different specific proposals uh the primary one of which is to move from the the largely fixed approach to to setting liability limits for satellite operations uh moving towards a variable limit of liability so the UK government has already said that that is what it intends to do so this consultation looks at a methodology for how it it intends to do that and the key element that's really being focused on as part of this is sustain sustainability which is you know probably the one of the if not the the key topic of conversation at the moment within the sector and so uh what we're looking at is um developing a methodology that looks currently looks at two stages so firstly uh and more work would be needed on this as well if it's agreed to take this methodology forward is to um develop a baseline Insurance amount uh so it would be one of 50 million pound 20 million pounds or zero uh which would look at um the what what we terming the sort of the sustainability risk of emission so look at the generic risk of the activity being undertaken and developing a methodology for assessing the risk of a particular orbit in which that activity will take place that would then develop a risk Matrix score uh which would set a Baseline and then the second stage which we also Consulting on as well would then be to look at the mission and ask a number of sustainability related questions with respect respect to that mission so look at uh a number of key areas the UK government is looking at this stage to prioritize with regards to sustainability so looking at the maneuverability of satellites um what is the post Mission disposal timeline uh What uh additional measures that are being uh have been adopted for trackability of the satellite how much engagement is there with operators with those operating in the same uh Orbits for example and so that assessment would then ultimately lead to one of those three uh limit liability being applied in the um in in in an operator license so that that focus on sustainability is is really the key driver uh behind that and increasingly um you know the UK government is looking at other potential leevers as well that can be used uh to to incentivize the uptake of more sustainable practices as well so one one of the things we're looking at in the consultation is views around uh reducing um operator license application fees uh to reflect that sustainability Focus as well so that's that's sort of primary sort of focus of what we're looking at but also the consultation looks at um other issues around longer term space sustainability as well um so questions as fundamental as um looking at how we Define what sustainability is because there are um it's such a broad subject um and we could probably spend two or three webinars of this length discussing discussing that on its own so you obviously have things around definitions in long in the long-term sustainability guidelines for example uh but there are other definitions elsewhere so so you from that basis then some of these key questions around sustainability we can then look to build a longer term framework um and then look to to to use things like the insurance and liability framework as a as a means to incentivize um the adoption of of of these different practices so one of the key things about the frame we're looking to adopt is that it is flexible it can respond to to Future uh policy considerations uh as we go along so it's not intended to be set in stone uh but yeah over a period of time it can then as domestic and Global thinking on sustainability develops it can then be used to incentivize um you how how operators then look to uptake new new thoughts Etc on on sustainability and things like that thank you right um I will now turn to Neil if that's okay so how does the involvement of government as examplified by the uksa recent consultation affect liability insurers and what considerations should be made in response um well I think the the the um activities of the UK space agency exemplary um and welcome the approach they've taken it's been the just to sort of um expand upon some of the things students said it's been a very inclusive um uh consult ation period with industry um and it's it's thrown up a number of innovative solutions as well things like um what's term the mutum mutual model um there's been broad engagement um that's what I've certainly witnessed um the impact for I think liability insurers is probably negligible um really in terms of um things that been done so just to sort of go back to sort of talking about that Mutual model the mutual model is essentially um it's very much like uh something which is used in shipping so you have um in shipping you have ship owners that have um their own um they pay into a a mutual fund and that fund is used uh then to settle liability claims unfortunately there's been very few uh liability claims but the the idea would be to expand upon that and adapt something like that um in terms of um how that would affect insurers I think it would have negligible impacts and certainly there's there's very defin def itely um a need for commercial insurance um but I think there's also a need for um engagement in new areas so thinking in terms of um CIS lunar activities um you know things that we haven't really encountered at the moment um we're very lucky that the community space Insurance Community I work with very um Adept to taking on new risk profiles and looking at different things so I think we've see an expansion certainly in terms of CIS lunar activities um and I'm not so sure that we need sort of um necessarily extra regulation but I think if I had to pick one thing that I'd like to see happen in terms of Regulation that would be sort of across um multiple jurisdictions be the introduction of um Salvage rights um we use those um on the on the surface of the Earth in terms of um as the treaty known as the the Treaty of the laws of the sea and what that says is that if you've got a ship that's um uh maybe stranded on rocks then somebody could come along and rescue it um and obtain rights over that that vessel so you'd either sell it back to the owner or or they pay for um the removal so I that I think would be a great sort of initiative to take forward then use towards the um uh the the debris um issues that we're all trying to engage with um to move forward and actually s of then you actually make debris valuable um people would go and Salvage it and then um you know ultimately repurpose it retask it or or have it used and um re you know reused in space so I think there's um that would certainly serve I think the um the interests of the community in general but it's um I think moving to anything that involves an extension of or a new treaty I think is is going to be a stretch at the moment so maybe it's something that could be sort of added on but I mean the laws of the sea um that's a treaty that's very been very widely adopted so I don't know why we can't just s borrow some of those principles and maybe attach that to one of the existing conventions or treaties thank you can I just yeah just add on to Neil's pointsa You may um yeah I think one of the things that uh that Neils mentioned there is is the mutual model that's one of the alternative approaches that we're looking at for provision of third party liability insurance um and I think one of the things that we're looking to do is is is to look at again look at things holistically so rather than looking purely at the you the the change of approach to liability limits is also looking at um you're looking these alternative potential models provision of third party liability insurance plus also other initiatives as well that are being developed thinking in particular around the space sustainability standard for example and about the interrelationships between those those different elements so very much taking that sort of holistic approach um to to thinking about these things in combination and what then what the overall benefit for that is with regards to the provision of insurance both in terms of potential cost but also the availability of insurance as well um and and also the the consultation we're looking at you know looks at suggestions for exactly the sort of thing that that Neil was looking at given the different concepts that that um are being discussed within the sector at the moment around for example creation of a a circular economy in space um how can you stimulate demand for active Debby removal Services um there a lot of questions in the consultation around yeah how yeah how how can we do that could we for examp Is it feasible for example um to set targets um for the REM for the removal of debris over particular sizes for example to stimulate demand how can that how can that such Services then be funded in the longer term as well uh through financial instruments or or or or other mechanisms as well so yeah very you know very much would welcome suggestions um from from um people listening to to to this uh to this session about how we can address some of these really quite fundamental questions uh around longer term sustainability as well so uh you know this is a real opportunity for those uh who wish to to to really engage and help shame sorry help shape uh UK government policy on this area for over the coming decades really so um yeah so have a look at the UK space agency website please do uh please do uh follow the link through of the consultation there and we'd very much welcome uh all suggestions on on this front thank you I think you know I found it really interesting listening to about Steve and and Neil I I would I would just wonder you know I think one of the challenges that that industry and in particularly new space often encounters when going out to Market to you know find Space insurance for whatever Innovative thing they want to put up into space is that risk profiling often can be quite challenging which leads to to premiums being high and then the cost of getting an insurance policy sometimes you know be a big burden and I think the the types of uh ideas proposed in in the UK consultation particularly with varied Insurance levels and risk-based assessments certainly is a step in the right direction and and I think you know but but I I wonder if the sustainability standard that's being developed and then the sustainability standard that sort of Drive the assessment towards what that third party liability requirement should be but then also um be a driver to bring down insurance premiums I'm I'm not sure and perhaps domini can can answer that better sure the um I think in terms of um if you're just talking about the mutual model then um there's definitely efficiencies to be created from that but you know it would still require Commercial Insurance um but one of the other sort of I think great benefits of that is but you know if you're talking about a club um of um operators you you're going to be inclined to letting people that have got good practices and that goes hand inand with the whole uh sustainability um idea you know it's you know if you're a good actor then you can come and join this club and if you join the club you'll benefit um from you know s of hopefully a better um Insurance experience shall we say yeah for my for my part I would say that insurers always look on a Case by casee basis at the risk profile so obviously this year has been uh has been very challenging and it has been the proof that the premium levels uh in the recent years were not adequate uh so there's an effort to be made there but all things being equal otherwise uh we we are in a process always to review the risk profile for each individual request and each individual client and adapt the product that we sell at the pricing level to to the risk to the risk profile that the client wants to uh to transfer to us so at the end of the day uh it's a balance between what the U what The Regulators are request in terms of uh of insurance coverage uh or or risk mitigation and what the client wants to transfer to insurance and what we what we can offer it's always ta made can we stay with you Dominic um so we talked about the um space Insurance Market not being profitable in the past five years um so can you talk about pricing and amount of claims maybe and and give us an idea how the insurance business can get back to profitability sure um so I mean it's I mean it's been anpress that 2023 has been a very difficult year for for insurers in the in the space line of business uh just to give a few bpark figures uh we're looking at more than $900 million in claims for for 2023 uh with premiums uh anywh between 550 and 600 Millions so clearly clearly not enough premium to pay for the claims uh and let alone the operating expenses and the uh and and the return on Equity that our shareholders would expect uh if I take a a longer term uh re riew uh since 2019 globally the market has lost money uh say for every dollar in uh in premium that we have received uh we've paid a120 cents in claims um and even more than that some players have uh have said that they have lost money every single year since since 2019 so the uh the obvious conclusion of that is it's not sustainable and something needs to be done so each and every uh participants in this market uh can take uh can take a different view some uh some companies some of some of our competitors have decided to withdraw to reduce their exposures at AA we've different we've taken the different approach that where we intend to remain a top tier player uh and uh so that means you know uh continuing the relationship and the level of support that we that we enjoy with our clients uh but we need adjustments in uh in the way we do business with our clients um and the easy answer would be to drive rates up uh and that's certainly an an element of the answer uh but it's not the only one so the the other elements would be uh to review with to discuss with our clients what is their risk retention and uh what if they are ready to accept more risk in U to or to retain more risk in order to uh to keep their premium uh in a um their premium at a reasonable level or or perhaps review the way they they do risk prevention uh like uh preventing the risk of of debris and risk of collisions type of stuff so all in all uh we need to go back to profitability and that's something that we need to do uh as a collaboration with Brokers and with clients thank you does anyone want to add something to this yeah i' just um would like to make a distinction between um the space Insurance market and the liability Market they they are two very separate um market so a liability Market is is purely looking after liabilities um and Don's talking about um the market for uring assets which is a different class yeah good point you and so just to just to add on to that one again one of the other things that um our consultation is also looking at as well is to uh pick up one of the themes that um our former Minister Freeman uh was talking about in engaging with on with the insurance sector is around looking at other opportunities uh that may exist within the space Insurance Market as well um uring other forms of activity as well so again that's one of the other things we're looking at as well so from the UK government's perspective our primary focus is on um is on the third party liability Market given our legal International and domestic legal obligations but certainly one of the things we also want to encourage as well is you is sustainable environment in the orbital sense but also sustainability from companies perspective as well making sure their their businesses can can Thrive and flourish so you how can Insurance play a role in helping to to facilitate that as well so I think again really trying to take that holistic approach um to say you how how can um companies keep themselves on a sustainable footing and again you the role that insurance can play Within that I think I'd add to that um in terms of I think we're seeing a lot more not just distinction between insuring assets and liability and as stevenh um mentioned there that um Insurance can certainly be used as an enabler commercial enabler um to help um people grow their businesses it just takes a little bit of innovation and ax are Exel are very good at that um and you know Finding finding ways to um actually increase commercial capabilities as well so coming up with new ideas and new products thank you very much I don't think I'm going to ask any more questions because I heard that there were some questions coming in from the audience if that's okay okay the first question is given the need for greater jurisdictional cooperation what are the main obstacles to that happening and that's from John so the main obstacles um well I think it's just International cooperation at the moment you know um the geopolitical um scene at the moment is quite fractious um so I think you know it's it's perhaps not the best time for cooperation but I think um just to um as I mentioned that idea of you know Salvage rights that's something which um you know many states have already um signed to up to in terms of the laws of the sea so I don't know whether it's sort of an easy easy win but I mean I think there's certainly sort of mileage in that and that would be I think sort of something that would bring on more commercial activity for people to clear up space if you make de valuable thank you I think the one thing that I I think that's completely correct but the one thing that I would certainly add to that is that you know one challenge when it comes to setting harmonized rules for things such as third party liability requirements for satellites certainly is the the level of development within a a country's space economy right so the most developed space economies have a different set of Industry stakeholders to set requirements for whereas emerging space economies sometimes have a different set of operators that that they need to keep in mind to to then set standards and regulations for and and when when you think of uniform standards I think those are harder to to put together for an industry that's so different in in different parts of the world I think what's more important is collaborative programs and Joint initiatives where where governments you know put together schemes where operators can participate in uh as as a group and that allows them to then have access to better markets and and then also feed into each other's uh systems and and I think there's a lot of ways that that can be encouraged and I think we've talked about some of those in this call but but I think it's important to you know recognize that different parts of the world are in different stages of development of their space economies and that will always impact the rules and regulations that are being put together dealing with different operators thank you yeah just just some um thoughts myself I think um obviously when it comes to International cooperation uh there are different levels of international cooperation so obviously we have the uh you cop structure uh to discuss things with you with all all space varing Nations Etc so there's a regular Cadence of meetings and updates and U and progress on those fronts and obviously then you have things like bilateral uh or slightly multilateral arrangements so for example in the context of visa for example so there is a lot of international collaboration that happens uh naturally um and as mentioned we we have the we have the overarching legal framework but again we can work within that context on a bilateral basis and one of the things for example we're looking to do with that template is is it it's something that could then potentially be picked up by other countries as well and use and adapted to their own particular uh domestic legal Frameworks but again there's also other elements as well that can also um be you look to fill some of these gaps as well so we've got things like guidance rather than rather than laws um we also have um uh commercial contracts for example uh where you can you can work across jurisdictions Etc take into account legal differen legal differences between systems so I think there are a number of ways to to to sort of make progress on on some of these issues which can then again be disseminated out over time so I think I think there are um there are there are me methods in which which to do this and again other initiatives as well linking back to the space sustainability standard um which um yeah I think is getting a lot of interest internationally as well uh where you can then develop you some common Frameworks by other means as well so I think I think there are there are different ways in which you you can have those common goals achieved um and I think the main thing is and this is one thing that we you working with um the people who were developing the space sustainability stand is making sure that UK government policy and the aims of the standard are Al aligned in the same direction because what you can't have is one you National Frameworks giving one set of rules and then other commercial Frameworks and initiatives going in another Direction so I think this is where as we discussed earlier on that engagement between the sector and all parties is actually really important to make sure that we're all aligned and moving in the same direction course thank you do we have more questions I'm sure we do okay David wants to know space cyber security Insurance why is this not required why is this so unpopular interesting question okay so I'll go for that on for a moment and Neil you're you're welcome to pitchin I'm sure you'll have comments on that uh I would say it's um at this point in time Cy cyber security Insurance uh generally speaking uh is is a developing Market uh I mean even uh even on the ground and if if we're talking about cyber risk on uh in uh in factories or property property insurance anything like that so those are this is a new uh a new type of insurance that is being developed uh for space uh I would say that there's been there's been some demand but not not that much so there's since there was uh there wasn't that much demand um there hasn't been that much uh there hasn't been any offer yet as far as I know simply because uh because the question was not there uh now I I guess eventually it is is something that's going that's going to become uh a real a real request from our clients and it will be uh it will become a product thank you Neil would you like to add something to that yeah sure so at the moment um cyber cyber risks are expressly excluded in um launching an orbit policies um I think there there is scope certainly for some sort of right back of cover but then you know it needs to be priced and I think the insurers are are much more focused on um the technology that they're um they're working with rather than looking at sort of um I suppose the outputs if you like and sort of how those are managed in terms of you know working with how the compu what's what's actually being done with the um the satellite or spacecraft so I think I think it'll come in time but at the moment it's um it's expressly excluded and um you know if it was to be included it need to be priced separately certainly absolutely and I would add that I've I've discussed cyber risk with with a number of clients and so far uh it is sort of out there and uh and a theoretical concern but uh but most clients are telling me that their their major client is uh their major concern is the satellite actually working and the the risk of having a Cyber attack against uh their their satellite is perceived as being fairly remote at at this point in time thank you for that I think that the other part of that question was why is it not required right so I think under international law it doesn't say what type of insurance is is required so if you read the outer space treat and the liability convention it talks about two types of insurance one is you know or two stages one is pre-launch one is postlaunch I think then it sort of becomes the responsibility of governments to then develop their own uh regulations and and rules and and that's where requirements for things such as third party liability or launch or you know particular types of operations of a spacecraft come in and and so whether or not should it be required is is a question that that governments will I'm sure eventually need to address but I think Dominique is quite correct in in pointing out uh the amount of risk uh cyber security at the moment poses to space operations yeah thank you okay now we have a question I think it's Ruth um so are the various green ratings useful SL informative uh to the insurers um I think we've not quite got to that stage yet where we're actually actively um using those um there's Stephen I think it's correct to say that it's still not being implemented but the the idea is that it would be I think certainly if you've got um if you're if what we're talking about is the the red like Amber green situation then if you talking about in the green situation potentially you'd have no liability insurance or no liability insurance required if you're down at the um the lowest of those levels so um I think that we're still that waiting for that to come I don't think it would be um a slam done you know if there was an insur if there was an insurance requirement at the lower level that it you could just say right you've got a green rating so it will impact the pricing you know there's a number of different factors that are involved it's just another indicator of where you you are on you know on that scale so you know it's it wouldn't prevent it wouldn't prevent insurers in my opinion from still taking a close look and and assessing the risk that's their job I completely agree with that it's uh I mean it will become eventually uh an input to our analysis but uh but right now it's uh it's a bit early to do that uh the best the best we can do is uh is really look at the uh General attitude of our clients towards uh you know space sustainability and uh and you know de uh deorbiting the spacecraft when they're at the end of life and making and taking all appropriate measures uh that we can think of to uh U to limit the risk of Deb but uh but taking it's very it's more a sort of informal uh informal parameter that we take into account rather than the hard one I think i' just add to that as well in terms of you know if you've got good sustainability practices um that tends to point to sort of like a company that would be perceived as being careful and you know that's what insurers want is you know operators that are careful and um you know manage their risks um you thoroughly and you know say so that would influence but um it's not going to be the only measure and I think it might be interesting also to see how different um policy drivers also have that sort of feedback into into the insurance premiums Etc so for example uh two of the areas that we're considering in the UK at the moment is um whether it would be a mandatory requirement for all UK licensed satellites to have propulsion and also to look at uh you reducing the the current 255e guideline for de aiting down to a a lower number of years so depending on obviously what that's an an ongoing conversation but obviously depending on the outcome of that um yeah it'd be interesting to see how that then may translate into the insurance premiums Etc of course you it also Loops back into the into the variable liability limit approach that we're looking at as well in terms of those assessments and then it be inter to see how that then translates through into the insurance as well so yeah that that's something I think would be interesting to see moving forward thank you we have one last question uh I mean we have more but time for only one more um so Nicholas is asking given that most UK satellites to Leo are licensed um under I say 1986 how does the current UK consultation feed into those decisions especially regarding sustainability um yeah I'm happy to take that one Ria so um so the approach that we're looking at uh would apply to licenses under either of the acts um under which UK licenses can be issued so whether that's the space act or the or the space industry act with regards to satellite operations um so yeah we're looking at looking it under under under anything that be UK licensed thank you I think to that the um just quickly the um that in terms of um having some sort of retrospective effect it's um I'm not a fan of that um if you're licensed you've already obtained your license but um I think certainly I mean it may be the case that the like requirements have have changed and that um something new required but um retrospectively that's um I think you've already committed to um your activities once you you've launched under the 86 act absolutely yes I think you what we' be looking to is apply all of these new policies Etc to things that are Beyond a certain date um so things for example around propulsion Etc obviously you can't can't apply respectively so yeah um so I think from the equity point of view uh then we'd be looking to to apply these new approaches um including the insurance requirement uh and the methodology to Applications received after after a particular date right thank you very much and now we don't have time for more questions I'm very sorry about this but we have to go to the closing remarks so Hamza is there a message that you want to leave us with after this panel yeah think thank you very much I think it's it's clear that as the space industry continues to evolve and and change the way we think of insurance both in terms of requirements and the market for space insurance will evolve and and develop to to cater to the needs of these emerging space Technologies and and new space more generally and I think it's really nice to see governments moving in that direction so I think the UK consultation and and some of the provisions that that are being talked about are really forthcoming and then Inspire confidence to the industry but at the same time you know efforts towards collaboration cooperation only need to increase in order to ensure that more entrance can move into the market and that actors within the space actors from all parts of the world can easily get get access to insurance and continue to grow their business so I think space insurance is certainly an an evolving and an emerging field and I think there's a lot more to come thank you very much does anyone else would like to add something just add to that I think we're um we're lucky um to work in this um space Insurance Market it's full of bright minds and bright people um and um we're certainly no strangers to Innovation that's great Dominic yeah I was just going to say that Spa insurance has been an enabler for innovation uh and for economic growth for the last 500 years or so uh it's been demonstrated that the uh uh Mar uh Maritime uh business Commerce uh has been has been enabled by insurance and clearly insurance is there and will be there to uh to enable the development of the space economy thank you and Steve would you like to add anything uh well thank you very much yourself here for facilitating this session been hugely interesting and also uh to to fellow uh panelists here as well and also to access partnership for putting on this session you I think you know there's never a boring time to be involved in space um but you know at the moment there's you there's so many hugely exciting things uh to get involved with and I think you know looking at sustainability looking at you know what stakeholders doing I think you know this partnership approach moving forward um is going to be absolutely key and insurance is going to be absolutely V and helping to support industry to to um and you know to to help industries Thrive to help space uh you uh be be managed Etc so I think yeah um lots of potential opportunities in in the offing um challenges as well um but I think yeah working together we can we can overcome those and uh yeah provide a really vibrant space sector to help uh benefit humankind and Planet as well thank you thank you very much for today's panel sh for sharing your expertise as well and I would just like to encourage everyone to like And subscribe to access partnership for more webinars like this thank you very much thank you thank you everyone