5 Cleaning Rules That DESTROY ADHD Brains (and 10 that actually help you declutter)

If you're ADHD, your executive function level is about a 30% deficit age- wise from a neurotypical brain. A 20-year-old, their executive function skills might be 30 to 40% their age younger. So, you're actually dealing with like a kind of 12year-old, which is why you might have teenagers and you're thinking, why is this not working? You don't grow out of your executive function difficulties. I think you just find ways to manage it. Ha Granger is the ultimate ADHD coach >> and viral sensation spreading her ADHD message to millions online. >> As an ADHD advocate and renowned public speaker, >> she is an expert in all things ADHD. >> Our ADHD brains don't have enough dopamine. Cleaning and sorting and life admin is really really boring. So we can think of a hundred things as much more fun. The idea of little and often or doing a little bit every day is wonderful in principle, but I do think that there are better ways. Can that trigger like a shame response cuz you've kind of like not fulfilled a promise to yourself? >> I think there's two things there. You've got the shame of not actually doing it, but also the shame of >> Huge announcement just before we start. Tickets to the ADHD Chatter podcast live theater show are selling fast. I'll be joined on stage by three leading psychiatrists and we'll be unpacking all things ADHD, how to process a late diagnosis or DHD and of course the dreaded rejection sensitivity dysphoria. I really hope you can join me for a night full of validation, laughs, and insights, and one that will remind you that you're not broken, just different, and that you have always been enough. It's on the 19th of May in London. You can find a link to the tickets in the description. I can't wait to meet you in person. >> Ha, welcome back. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. >> You've been very busy since you were last here. >> Yes. Yeah. I think it's been a couple of years now. And I was on tour last year. So I did 27 Dates in theaters with a show called ADHD Unmasked. And then I'm going to go on tour later again this year with a show called ADHD Unfiltered. It's been busy, but it's good to be back. >> That's good. How do you manage the the complexities, the stress of touring? Was that quite a lot? >> Do you know what? It was a lot, but equally, I've got an amazing husband, Kelly. He was at home sorting the kids out. I saw all the pets out. So actually, I feel slightly spoiled that I was just away. I could just concentrate on the show. Obviously I went home etc but I was kind of away for sort of you know 10 11 12 days at a time and it just meant that actually I could concentrate on what I was doing. So I loved it. I had like the best time. I met so many people and I got to speak about ADHD every night on on stage. So for me there was nothing better. >> Sounds brilliant. And what was the state of the house like when you got back? >> Actually spotless was it? >> Yeah completely. He runs a military a military ship going on at home and yeah, I would say Kelly is a lot tidier than I am, >> but I don't like mess >> but I kind of can't help it. >> Kelly is your husband and is he neurotypical? >> So, he is Kelly's autistic and ADHD and maybe that's why it's so immaculate cuz everything's got a base and he knows exactly what >> his own ying to his own yang. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But Kelly was diagnosed in his 40s as autistic ADHD. So he's ADHD and then I'm ADHD. I was diagnosed in my 40s and then we've got two teenagers who are now 14 and 16. So truly neurode divergent house which obviously can be interesting >> and that's what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about five >> cleaning hacks. >> Yes. >> That don't work for neurody divergent brains. But then also the really helpful part is like what does work. >> Yeah. Because I think there's so much like I'm an ADHD coach and I just hear this a lot from my clients saying like my house is a mess and then obviously if you've got a messy house it's a messy brain which then impacts work or your family and just kind of feeling that you can't settle when you're at home if your house is a mess. So actually as you said with the five that don't work and kind of why because I think there can be this perception that you might watch some you know Tik Tockers going oh this is how you clean your house clean influencers which you are amazing but then you sort of think well why is that not working for me why can't I do that and if you got a ADHD brain like me there are reasons why >> yeah I feel like a lot of the neurotypical advice assumes that you have some kind of manager going on in your head and not just five raccoons with a whiteboard. board. >> Yes, this is it. If the raccoons have remembered the pen off the whiteboard cuz they may not have done or one of the raccoons broke the whiteboard. But yeah, I think this is it. And that's the the point I think is really important is for people to not feel bad and wonder, well, why is my house a bit of a mess or why can't I keep on top of things? And I always say that actually I think, you know, having ADHD, I find it really hard to be an adult. Like I'm 48 now and I just still find adulting really difficult. I have to do it and my husband has to do it and you know we run our business perfectly autistic so we're really busy and then we've got the teenagers as well who want to live in a nice clean house. If you go into my daughter's bedroom it is spotless. It's she's autistic ADHD as well and it is spotless and I think that's quite unusual with teenagers. So I feel quite blessed but yeah I think it's just not having that shame that can be you know involved sometimes with your home. >> Yeah. Gosh. I mean if shame was a motivator I think we'd all we'd all have spotless houses right? Yeah, I think so. But would we? >> I think we'd like to we'd feel the shame, but actually the energy and the executive function, etc. might not always play out like that. But yeah, >> shame plays a huge part in it, I think, >> cuz everyone's got different cleaning styles, right? I suppose I think mine's like I'll just have a random burst of energy at an unpredictable time and probably get a little bit done in some areas, but then I'll just lie down >> for like four or five hours and that'll be my day done. >> You're done. Can you almost when you're doing it, can you almost feel yourself waning? >> Cuz I can kind of feel like you're like, "Oh god, the batteries are going to run out soon." >> I'm scared of getting halfway through a task, I've made more mess than when I started. Then the dopamine runs out and I'm looking at a wardrobe that is now in a worse state than when I started. >> I think that should be part of the diagnostic criteria. It's like how far along do you get with cleaning or sorting? Is it messier than it was before? Because you're right. is that kind of you get everything out and then you put on a random hat or something you found from years ago or you found this that and actually you've got completely sidetracked. Everything is in a mess and much worse. But I think the intentions there so I think that's the difficult part cuz you want a tidy house. Most people do anyway. >> Absolutely. Right, Hester, let's get into it. The number we're going to go reverse chronological order. So we're going to start with number five. >> Yes. >> A a strategy a cleaning strategy that doesn't work for ADHD. Why it doesn't work and then what does work instead. >> Yes. Perfect. So the fifth tip that doesn't work is do a little every day. Like do you think that's a nice idea? I feel like it's a nice idea and sometimes my brain feels like it's a nice idea, but they forget or we forget that we had that agreement with each other. >> This is it, isn't it? I think that's a lovely idea. And that is the type of neurotypical cleaning advice you'd get, isn't it? Sort your home out. Do a little bit each day. Keep on top of it. like the amount of times I have the intention to hoover every day and I'm like we've just got a little wizzy round hoover for downstairs or hard floors isn't too difficult and then I'm like or I could just do something else less boring. And I think the key point is we're lacking in dopamine. Our ADHD brains don't have enough dopamine and cleaning and sorting and life admin and whatever else is really really boring. So this is the problem is we're lacking in dopamine. So we can think of a hundred things is much more fun than doing that. So the idea of little and often or doing a little bit every day is wonderful in principle. And obviously with ADHD brains, everyone's different, aren't they? So it might work well for someone. I don't know anyone yet with ADHD, any of my clients who go, "That works perfectly." But I do think that there are better ways. >> It it it's it requires consistent executive functioning and working memory, right? And otherwise, you're just going to forget. >> Yes. And this is it. I think you've just hit the nail with the working memory as well. So the executive function challenge is if you're um if you're ADHD, you've your executive function level is about a 30% deficit age- wise from a neurotypical brain. So what I mean by that is you might have let's say I'm really bad at math by the way, but let's just take a 20-year-old, right? Their executive function skills might be 30 to 40% their age younger. So you're actually dealing very bad at math, like I said, with like a kind of 12y old, right? which is why you might have teenagers and you're thinking why is this not working or you might be a young adult. I I personally think that actually you don't grow out of your executive function age and your difficulties. I think you just find ways to manage it. Um, and I think a lot of ADHDs feel much younger than they are and they feel quite carefree and actually executive function with the working memory, like you said, remembering that you had that deal and actually even if you do remember it, there can be that slight PDA of just going, do you know what? Actually, no. And you kind of screw yourself. You're a bit like, well, no, I'm not you. You're telling me to do that, but I'm not going to do that. >> Yeah. >> Again, I can think of more exciting things to do. >> You're in such a good mood when you do some cleaning. If I if I hoover my flat, if I take a vacuum cleaner around and I and it looks really nice and you're in that high dopamine state, it's so easy to tell yourself, I'm going to do this every single Friday at 4:00 cuz that's worked. Yes. >> But then Friday at 4:00 comes around. You're distracted by looking up the mating habits of blue whales on Google and forget to hoover or you just skip it. Yeah. >> And then but that can that trigger like a shame response cuz you've kind of like not fulfilled a promise to yourself. >> Yeah. I think there's two things there. You've got the shame of not actually doing it. So, as in now my house isn't as lovely and nice and tidy or my flat isn't as clean as it was, but also the shame of, oh, for goodness sake, once again, I haven't done it. I've not kept my promise to myself. And I'm sure you've talked about this before, but by the time you were 12, a child with ADHD will have received 20,000 more negative comments than their peers, their siblings, etc. Whether that's you're lazy, must try harder, you know, stop fidgeting, tidy your room, it's a mess, etc. And I always say those people, those children with ADHD grow up to be adults. And that's why there's a lot of shame, a lot of stigma involved. So you've almost got the two different sides of it. You've got the shame of going, do you know what? I really can't be bothered. Actually, I really cannot be bothered. And then also the I can't believe once again, I'm lazy. I hear this so many times from clients. I'm lazy. You know, I should just try harder. And when when you actually unpick it all, there's so much going on and you're not lazy at all. It's just actually then the following Friday at four o'clock you might have had an absolutely manic week. You're flat out whatever and you just don't have the energy for it. >> So what is the solution to this? What is what is an ADHD friendly alternative? Is it rather do a little every day? Is it like wait until someone's due over in 5 minutes and then do it all at once? >> I was thinking about this. I was thinking my house is never tidier than when someone is going to come round in half an hour. But you can trick your brain into thinking that. So, I fake pretend someone is coming around, right? >> Fake pretend someone's coming over. >> So, I'll be like, >> "How do you do that?" >> You literally So, I will say to Kelly, I used to do this before I had ADHD, not knowing. And I'd say to Kelly, my husband, right, let's pretend someone's coming over in 20 minutes. Quite a small amount of time. It's slightly like the Pom Pomodoro technique, which we'll talk about in a minute. But you, so you just madly go for it for 20 minutes. And I think what happens if you tidy over a long period of time and there is no end time to it. It just takes ages because you're like well I've got 2 three hours. So you will take 2 3 hours to do it. Whereas if you go right I've got 20 minutes. You know, the quickest thing to do is pick up everything off the floor if you've got stuff off the floor or maybe do the laundry or wash up things that are really quick, impactful, but you pretend that someone is coming over and somehow sometimes that can just trick your brain into the dopamine kicking in. But also put on some really good tunes like make it really fun. Don't because it is really boring even if you're neurotypical but some really good tunes quite loud and even have specific cleaning tunes that you know these are the songs that really get me going you know like people have running playlists. >> Yes. >> Have a cleaning playlist like come up with something that works that you are like I love this tune which is going to keep you tidying a little bit longer but you have to limit the amount of time and that's when you're most impactful because you're like bam bam bam the dopamine you got that focus. >> Yeah. Gosh, who knew Eminem could be such a motivator? He's my sort of cleaning companion. >> See, I he'd love that. See, that's body doubling as well, isn't it? Which I'll probably talk about in a bit. >> Could you like artificially not artificially I suppose it's an expensive way to do it, but could you force someone to actually come over? Um, like could you order delivery? Um, so someone's, you know, someone's coming in 30 minutes and you know they're going to see at least the port inside. >> I just want to say, do you invite your delivery person in? >> Come on, Simon. would you come? Let's sit down at the dinner table and have that nande. >> Come and look at my sitting room. Um, yeah, I know what you mean though. There is that there is that thing, isn't there, where actually you open the front door and sometimes depending how, you know, big your or small your hall is, you can see the mess. I can, you know, you can see all the coats hanging on the banister or whatever. So, anything like that works. But also, I mean, we might as well talk about body doubling now because that just made me think of it with a delivery driver. But actually having someone with you, might be a friend, family member, they don't have to actually do it. And I used to do this with the kids when they were younger. They were like old enough to tidy and to tidy their room, but actually they would just be a bit bored and kind of go off task. And so I would just sit on the bed. I used to do this with my son and I would just sit on his bed while he tidied. And not that I wouldn't help him or couldn't help him, but actually he could do it. He'd just get a bit bored. And even now sometimes I'll say to him if he's not doing anything, can you just come with me? Like I've just got loads of random bits to do around the house and I just will you just come with me and he'll just come up and down the stairs. I'm delivering the washing. I'm doing it's just like a buddy just having someone that keeps you on track so that I'm not then you know the worst thing you can do if you got ADHD is sit down. I can almost be like I'm going to No, don't sit down. Don't do not sit down cuz you know you're never getting up again. And it's just someone to keep you on track. But body doubling or maybe with your delivery driver. >> Maybe that's a cheaper way to do it. Or maybe the fact that that's just a sign that I don't have any friends or buddies to call up, so I have to fake one. >> Maybe you could be like, "Don't bring me an Andando. Just come down for a couple of hours and hang out. This is all we need." >> Body doubling is fascinating. It clearly works because I've heard so many people talking about it and I' I've experienced it. You know, my my partner is in the room. It helps you just get over that procrastination hump. Like, do we know how it works? >> If I'm honest, there is some kind of neuroscience that I'm not amazing with. I think it's the fact that it's someone there to keep you on track. Does that make sense? So, I did it. So, I've been with my husband for 24 years now. We've been married for 18 and neither of us knew we were neurody divergent, >> but I would say to him, I've got some really boring emails to do. Like, I've got whatever it is. It can be life admin. Oh my god, I've got to renew my car insurance. >> Can you just like be with me while I do it? It's almost like a handholding thing. Or if something really like I've got to go and make dinner, right, will you come with me? Or he's like, come on, let's go make breakfast together. Like, it's almost just having a buddy. So there must be something in your brain that like I said I'm not a neuroscientist or anything that just kind of triggers that whole okay actually someone is here and maybe then you're not going to be as distracted so they just keep you on track. >> It makes a lot of sense. It's like an accountability buddy in a way% >> I suppose. Also you don't want to let the person down. >> Well exactly watching you empty the the dishwasher. I don't want to let you down. I'm going to do this right now. I've got the motivation and let's let's get those plates out and put them away. And the thing is, it sounds like, doesn't it, that everyone's just done and they're watching while you do all the cleaning or the cooking or whatever. And that's not the case at all. But I think sometimes actually you don't need the person to help you. You just need that person to help you almost say keep on the straight and narrow, but kind of keep keep focused on what you're doing. >> And they don't need to be in person, do they? They could be perhaps like on on on a laptop screen just in silence while you go through your emails. >> Yes. Yes. Well, that literally you can do I keep talking about this. We've got a a big um it's a group called Norfick Women with ADHD up in Norfolk obviously where I live and we keep saying we need to set this up where you can just have someone that either you know on FaceTime or they're on Zoom or whatever just keeping you on track. You can do it with work as well but you can do it with you know sorting the house out and just you can either do the same thing at the same time but actually you don't need to. It just keeps someone on track. The other thing you can do as well, which is really nice, is message a friend or if you're part of like a community or a group or whatever and say, "Right, I'm going to set myself a bit of a challenge. I've got to tidy my dining room or living room or whatever. I've got to do this in an hour." And what you do is you share photos. So, I say this to my um ADHD clients quite a lot. Take a photo if you can and I quite often get them to send it to me of what the room looks like before and then take a photo afterwards because visually you can then see the impact that it's had which I think is really important and it's also really good for you to remember how much you like this clean tidy room. >> Does that make sense? Cuz you forget what it looks like almost sometimes being tidy and it's really good for children or teenagers where you take a photo and go this is what it looks like. It's almost when I say tidy your room, this is what I expect it to look like, if that makes sense. >> Yeah. No, it does. Absolutely. I suppose you object permanence in a way can make you forget about the the original mess and therefore the sort of the reward of it now being clean can disappear, too. >> Yeah. Cuz you just you just don't see mess sometimes, do you? That's the thing. You I did it the other day. I was really laughing cuz I was like I kept seeing this phone charger on the stairs. And I have to say, we're pretty good in our house. I'm probably the worst. But it is it's not messy cuz I'm not great with mess. Every now and again I'm like, "Okay, this is like like let's have a tidy." But actually things have got a place. I think that's the key point. But you're right, object permanence, out of sight, out of mind can be really difficult. So you even can forget cleaning products, you can forget stuff. But there was a phone charger on the stairs and I sort of walked past it and I kept thinking, "Oh, and then yesterday packing my bag to come into London today and I was like, I need a phone charger. Sure, there's one on the stairs." And I picked it up and I was like, that's why I left it there. I knew it was going to come in handy. But actually, I think it's having the photos, being able to identify it. I think also removing that shame. So, actually going, do you know what? My house is in absolute state at the moment. My kitchen is awful to a friend or whatever. Do you want to come and like, you know, be online with me whilst we do this together and get through it? I always say like safety and numbers. >> Definitely. It definitely works. I've had loads of experience with body doubling. You kind of just feed off someone's energy. Yes. And the whole out of sight leads us on to the point number four quite nicely which is out of sight storage. So we put stuff in a in a in a drawer in a cabinet in a cupboard close the cupboard thinking right that's it that's done. Um and then of course we just forget that it exists. >> Yes. >> Like why why does that happen? >> So I was just going to say really quickly before we go on to why. When I was little obviously I didn't have ADHD. I wasn't diagnosed till I was 40 uh 43. And I remember I'd get like a new school shoes or something and I used to put them at the end of my bed on the floor and I realized probably a year or so later that was because of object permanence. If I put them in a cupboard I'd almost forget they existed. Right? So there's just this real thing in your brain. I don't know whereabouts it is that just we don't see it anymore. So therefore it doesn't belong. It's not real. We can't it it just doesn't exist. Okay. You can do this with people as well, which is why sometimes people find it really difficult to stay friends with people etc. because they just don't live near, they don't see them very often. So in their mind, the person doesn't exist anymore. So when you've got items, say for example, I always think vitamins is quite a good example, something that you need to take every day. Actually, having them in a cupboard like somebody else would, maybe neurotypical people, that feels like it would work, but we then just forget that the vitamins exist. So what we then end up doing is having everything out that we need on the sides in the kitchen for example or visual somewhere but then the trouble is you then have lots of mess and clutter and it can feel someone can come in and it can feel quite cluttered. So it's about having a space for everything. It's about knowing that actually if I need to find that that is on that shelf in that cupboard and it's being because maybe you don't need it that much. So sometimes I look at things and I'll think actually why is that on the side? Because I don't use it even every day. So actually I don't need it out. But I think there can be that worry that we're going to forget things. So you just put everything out. You leave everything out for that fear. >> Gosh, the vitamin pills felt deeply personal, Ha. Because I have many I know for a fact I have many outofdate vitamin boxes in my cupboards. Like for me it's like my cleaning has four stages or it used to. I think it's like step one panic clean, step two, hide everything, step three, forget where they are, therefore buy them again. And I I remember I bought all of my vitamins again and I went to put them in in the same cupboard only to find the original set of vitamins that I just had to spend another 50 60 quid on. >> Yeah. Yeah. And this is it. There's, you know, the old ADHD tax, the cost of everything, you know, it's like a fake tax, but the cost of rebying vitamins because you put them in the cupboard and forgot. or I will look in cupboards and be like, I know there's a particular cleaning product in here. I cannot find it, so I'm just going to buy it again. There's that. And then you look and you go, hold on, we've already got three of those exact same cleaning products. I don't need the same. And I think there's this perception, isn't there, that if I find the exact right cleaning product or cloth or storage solution, my life is going to be perfect, right? Oh my god, it's going to all be answered. All my prayers are answered. And we know that's not the case. And I think that's why it's really helpful to understand your brain, understand what works, but take away that shame. I'm always talking about being kind to yourself and being kind about yourself. And I think that is what understanding ADHD and your ADHD brings is the kindness. So actually, you don't then beat yourself up about it when you have forgotten that those vitamins are in there or something random's in a cupboard. But I think it's the whole object permanence and out of sight, out of mind. You have to bear that in mind because actually otherwise you are going to constantly keep rebying vitamins or whatever it is because they just you know it's okay as long as everything's got a place. It's when lots of things everywhere that's when the problem starts. >> Yeah. No, definitely. I think my memory and I have an agreement now which is like my memory says do not rely on me. I will not succeed. You will not remember that this new thing you've just bought is in here. >> This is here cuz you just forget about it. Literally you shut the cupboard. It's the same when you write things on a notepad. So if you wrote like a cleaning schedule out on a notepad, the minute you shut the notepad, that list no no longer exists. You have to have it open. You have to have it on a whiteboard maybe with or without the raccoons you mentioned earlier. You know, a clipboard on the fridge, something like that that's then open and then you can see it. So if you are going to write down a cleaning list of things that you want to do, actually make sure it's there because that object permanence is going to kick in as well with lists, etc. on notepads. >> A quick word from our sponsor. We've all had that nightmare. You're on that final warning from that friend. If you miss their birthday again, your friendship is over. Fenito, and you do miss it. Even worse, you miss their wedding and you were giving the speech. The speech you forgot to write. I can change. You plead with them and they say, "No, you can't." Well, actually, you can. How? Teemo app. That's how Teemo app has organized me in a way that's made me unrecognizable to my nearest and dearest. What? ADHD. Temo is designed by neurode divergent brains for neurode divergent brains. And you can tell it's built to adapt to your neurode divergent way of thinking and be flexible to your way of planning. And now it's even more simple with the AI planning assistant. A simple voice prompt when you have to plan something. And the new AI planning assistant smoothly transcribes it into an easily digestible list of instructions to guide you. Give it a go and use the link in my bio for 30% off. Just a note though, this code is only applicable on the web browser, not on the smartphone. Back to the show. So for this point, what is the solution? Is is there a solution? Is it just a case of keeping everything visual? >> Yeah. Do you mean with object permanence? >> With stuff that you want in your life, but you don't want to put it away. You don't want to put it in that cupboard because you literally might risk forgetting that it exists. >> I think it's perfectly okay to have it out as long as it is as long as there's a place for it. And I I think what then happens is people then think, actually, do you know what? I'm going to buy some more storage solution because that's actually what the issue is. And actually, it might be that you've got so many things and it's that's not the issue at all. So, you probably need to have a bit of a clear route. But actually, it's perfectly okay to have certain things out like vitamins that you know you're going to need to take every day and you're just going to forget that they exist. But I think the problem happens when you then the vitamins are not where they normally should be on the sideboard. They have somewhere else and you've moved them and that's where they don't live. And then that's when your system becomes a mess because you just keep putting everything in there because you're worried you're going to forget everything. >> Yeah. So is it like you're keeping things like the vitamins at the location of where they are used? >> Yes. So for example, you need water with vitamins. So you probably need them in the kitchen where it's near the glass where it's need near the water. But also don't forget that maybe actually your routine is to take your vitamins first thing in the morning. So actually would it make sense to have them by your bedside table so when you wake up in the morning that's the first thing you do. It's about creating routines that work for you even if they maybe look a bit strange to other people. Doesn't matter does it? No one else is going to know. But actually if that's where you take it to you have your vitamins or maybe you have them last thing at night. So again maybe it's you know in the bathroom as you're doing your teeth next to your toothbrush or it's by your bed. Whatever works for you. I think it's going through your house and thinking how do I live my life? What works? What doesn't? Actually, like we rearranged all our cupboards a little while ago cuz I was like the I think it was Kelly was like the dishwasher's there and the glass are there and but actually we take the bread out there to make sandwiches for my son and then the plates like it just didn't flow. So kind of think about how you live your life or is it that you actually take your vitamins at work? So do you have your vitamins at in your desk at work or in your work bag or whatever works for you? I think that's about that's what it needs to be rather than oh this is you know you your vitamin should be in the kitchen cuz that makes sense. >> How do we go about decluttering the cupboards? The stuff that I call it my shame cupboard because I've got a lot of cupboards that are full up with stuff like the vitamins. They they're still there and they've got date and there's so much shame associated with like what's in those cupboards. I'm sure archaeologists will probably study them one day and be like oh like what are all these things? But is it just a case of you need to just have a day where you just find the energy and and empty them so you have like new space to to deal with? >> It's giving me Monica from Friends her cupboard. Yes. Do you remember the cupboard of doom? Um the thing is you've already spent the money on them. Okay. So that money's already gone. So you holding on to them isn't going to make any difference. Okay. It's like with clothes for example. I have a lot of clothes and you look and you go, "Oh, but I won't get rid of that item of clothing cuz I spent money on that and actually so but it's not it's just cluttering up your home which then clutters up your brain and your space and then you can't think as clearly cuz there's just stuff everywhere." So maybe that would be a really great body doubling situation where you just have someone else that just go but you don't need those. You know, it's like this special cardboard box that you get sent something in the post and you're like, "Well, that's a handy cardboard box." That's how you can tell you're getting old, isn't it? Oh, good cardboard box. Maybe I'll need that one day. Actually, it's just about thinking with the vitamins, just bin them. Just go through the cupboards. If something's out of date, bin it cuz you're not going to use it anyway. But by holding on to it every time you open that cupboard, you've got that shame. You see them and it's a reminder. And actually, just by getting rid of it, whatever it is, or out of date food in the cupboards or stuff in the fridge, like you've already spent that money, it's already gone. You holding on to the item because you feel bad about getting rid of it isn't going to change anything. M I used to think that I had an emotional attachment to the things that are in my cupboard. Even it doesn't make sense. Why would I have an emotional attachment to out of date vitamin pills? But there's something that I felt sad at the thought of throwing them out. >> But actually, what I realized was when I did throw them out, out of sight, out of mind kicked in and I didn't miss them. >> No. >> And I feel like, you know, there are sad consequences to a mind like that. But I feel like with with objects >> if you actually have that moment where you do discard and get rid of them like you you don't miss them. >> No. >> Typically. >> No. And and I completely understand. I think that's a very you know that can be a real neurode divergent trait is we take objects that have no soul or spirit or energy and put sort of emotions onto them. We were buying um Teddy's a couple of months ago, like a jelly cat. And when the guy put it in the carrier bag, I was like, "Please, can you make sure it can breathe?" >> He was just like, "Yeah, no, that's fine." Like, >> valid concern, >> of course, cuz it's a bear and you put them in a plastic bag and that's just dangerous, you know. But I think there is that thing of it's the same when like the kids were little and you'd take their teddies away and like you'd be in the, you know, you'd go away for a couple of nights and then we'd always like make sure that the bags weren't fully zipped up so that the animals could breathe. And you know or I think it can be that you attach certain emotions or memories as well. So you know with the vitamins it might be that that was part of you when you were like going to the gym loads or wanted to be really healthy. So actually you put this attachment that if I bin them that means I'm no longer going to be healthy or no longer going to go to the gym. And actually that's not the case at all. And you know, I bet if anyone's listening to this and they looked in their fridge or their fruit bowl, all of the fruit, all of the vegetables, the chances are there's a soggy cucumber in there somewhere or there's a you know, sad looking pepper or whatever just by keeping them because you're like, "Oh god, that's a waste." It's not going to a bring I was going to say the cucumber back to life, but you know, it's not going to you just bin it and get rid of it and move on. And I know now being diagnosed later in life, I'm a lot better at that. Like I was going through the fridge the other day and a few bits of food had gone out and I felt this real guilt because it's food waste and I don't like that at all. And then there's almost that frustration of actually well I've spent money on this and we forgot to eat it in time cuz I looked at the date and I thought it was a different date and you know just typical stuff and I just b it and thought I shouldn't feel shame. And if you spoke to a neurotypical person they wouldn't think anything of it. They just bin it and be move on. Whereas we're like oh god should have eaten those bananas. I'll save them for banana bread. You're not going to. So just get rid of it. the same with the vitamins. >> I never thought I'd be psychoanalyzing why there's out of date vitamins in my cupboard, but I think it's so true because I have such a bad memory. I don't remember many things, but those vitamins in my cupboard act as a visual prompt, a visual memory prompt. The fact that I had fun with my partner at a year ago when we were talking about this me this this health kick we were going to go on together and that fun trip to the supermarket where we were really excited in that aisle picking up the vitamin D pills. And yes, they've gone out of date and they can't be taken anymore. still there reminds me of that nice memory whereas otherwise because my memory is so bad I would forget that event and I think that whole >> memory and you know like you said the working memory but also those thoughts and I know my husband Kelly talks a lot about you know he's so busy like for example when the kids were younger he can't remember them sometimes in certain situations and actually as you say these random items act as a prompt to spark that memory off which makes you really happy but there's you know what there's an amazing program. I think it's still on Netflix called The Minimalists. Right now, minimalists is not normally a word you'd associate with ADHD is, but they're absolutely amazing. Two American guys. And basically, whenever I watch that, I get really inspired. And it's like, actually, you don't need the memory of the vitamins cluttering up your cupboard because you're with your partner, you've got that memory. And but like sometimes it just needs unlocking, doesn't it? So actually what you then might do is come up with a new health journey or go together and buy some more vitamins but then put them in a place that you can see them so you remember to take them and actually that memory will then sort of be elongated and go on for longer. >> So interesting. I feel like it can be such a subconscious process too. I never even thought the fact that I'm keeping those vitamin pills because of that memory association. It's not until some something perhaps reminds you and it could be so small like you smell something you like snaps you back to a childhood memory that you have completely forgotten. It might be so abstract you can't even visualize like the details of the memory. But the feeling comes back like the feeling of happiness or joy or love comes back in that moment. And actually that's why I'm hoarding those pills. It's nothing to do with the fact that I can't throw them out. I just don't want to lose the memory of that feeling. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean we could psycho analyze this, couldn't we? For days. It's so interesting, isn't it, though? But you're right. I mean there's loads of research isn't there around smells and memory and you know even from when you were younger all like you know mowed lawns and oh my god that was a great summer we had and we played in the garden and it was brilliant and loads of fun and all that kind of thing and I think you know equally smiles can then have negative impacts as well but you're right it's those memories that we put on things and that's sometimes why it's quite difficult to part with things that someone else you know if anyone's got small children and a collection of stones and sticks that child will remember exactly where each stick came from and to someone else it might just be a But to that child, especially, you know, if they're neurody divergent, they will know exactly where that stick came from and exactly where that stone came from. And actually, we keep them. And I think it's about being respectful with things like that. You don't just bin them because you think they're sticks and they don't matter, you know, but then again, maybe they're in the garden and they're not on the sideboard in the kitchen kind of thing. So, it is really interesting, isn't it? >> Yeah. No, I suppose if you do need to get rid of things, you could always take a photo of it and perhaps put it in an album. So, you have an album of associated memories. I can take a picture of my vitamin pills. >> Yeah. Exactly. I think I really have lost plot. >> Yeah. And I think but that's a really great one with like children's artwork and stuff and if you've got children that are coming home each week with these projects and actually keep them for a couple of weeks, put them up on the fridge or wherever, but take a photo and then actually you can create really cute books or whatever or have them on your phone or print them out. >> You don't need the actual item. I think you know when we we moved about 18 months ago and it was such a good time to just go through everything and I had my like A-level photography project well we moved a couple of years ago so I was like okay I've had this for like 30 years and I was like why have I got this and Kelly was like I don't know but we've moved that from a lot of different houses to house I don't need it to remember that I've got a photography A level I'm rubbish at photography still even now but I don't need why am I keeping this and I think there's this real sometimes Sometimes you just need to have a real switch and just go actually what is the basis? Why am I keeping it? And if you're ing and aaring though, if you're thinking, do I bin it or do I not? Just keep it. And then maybe you go, right, I'm going to put this somewhere. If you've got the space, I'm going to give it 3 months. I'm going to give it 6 months. If I've not even thought about it or not even used it, do I really need it? >> Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. There's a lot there, isn't there? Like I suppose it's why people keep hold of like their old teddy bears or their old blankets because it's such a dopamine reminder of of like happy times. Yes. >> And if we're like dopamine seeking beings even even if it's like a minute memory like we're not we don't want to throw it out. It's such a knee-jerk reaction to keep it in our in our world. >> Yeah. I mean we I feel like you've been around. We have a loft full of teddy bears and that was like I don't know if you ever see it on um on social media people like I have the um uh stuffed teddy autism and like my kids are autistic and my daughter is the other day I was like we maybe need to go through those at some point and she was like absolutely not. We're like okay fine they're fine. Like we've got the loft it's fine but I think it's when you're running out of space so then maybe you tackle the things that don't have all those emotions and memories. And this sounds really silly and it might seem a bit mad, but um I have I've had tons of clothes over the years. That's one of my dopamine seeking is shopping. So I'm trying to get rid of stuff and I'm trying to go through the woods and I'm thinking what's going to work? And how I framed it which fits with your vitamins and their emotions is I was like this dress or this jacket is in my wardrobe and it is not living its best life, right? and it needs to run free and it needs to go and be with someone else where it gets worn and shown off and is living its best life. And all of a sudden I could get rid of loads of stuff because I just was like it's sad in my cupboard. It doesn't get shown and then I sold a bunch of stuff on vintage or whatever and I'd have people message me and going oh my god this has brought me so much joy and I'm like yes and quite often I'd put on the post you know needs a good home. So if anyone understood this fabulous jacket it needs a good home. So I think it's it's just about not keeping everything but being selective. >> Yeah. Yeah. And separating things that I do have that emotional memory attachment to it compared to things that perhaps don't. But you just don't have the executive function to return them. >> Yes. >> That could be the the ADHD test, right? It's like how good at your returning online purchases. >> ADHD tax right there. Yeah. I think this is the thing the whole returning purchases. Um, and a really good tip for that is if you equate, right, if I go to the post office to return this item, and that item's 50 quid, would I go to the post office, which is a mile away for £50? Yeah, I probably would, actually. So, you almost And then if you even if that doesn't fill enough, you then go, what else could I spend £50 on? I did this with a client a while ago, and they were um quite young, so they were like, well, that would be x amount of beers. That would buy me eight beers. I'm like, so is that now worth returning that item? Well, yeah, cuz that's like a night out, right? So, you almost have to not quite trick your brain, but switch it. But I think again, you know, the returns policies, I mean, I could go on about this for ages, Alex, but I think there is this issue with us buying things and then not able to return them for an executive function skills and it feels too much effort or maybe you've got to go and speak to someone or oh my god, trying to get the return code. That in itself is such a challenge that they make it really hard, don't they? Oh, you're making me like get get quite angry cuz I've been the victim of this a lot and it's so complicated. Do you think buying stuff is fun because we we're looking like, okay, we're going to feel good with those new trainers or that new computer game is going to make me feel good. But do we not get excited about the prospect of money returning to our bank account? >> No, because the executive function challenges are so much the difficulty because it's not just the executive function, it's transitions. So, actually like I live in a little village outside Norwich. So, actually, I've got to take this item. I've got to I've tried it on and it doesn't it doesn't fit. I've now got to put it back in its bag. I've got to go online, get the code, remember to screenshot the code. Now I've got to sell a tape up. I've got to get in the car. Got to get out. I've got to queue at the post office. I've now got to talk to the post person, which doesn't bother me, but it might for some people. And then I've got to send it. How? Like all of those steps there are just too many. Whereas actually if you just could, you know, click your fingers and it was returned, you do it, but there are so many steps. So even sometimes the £50 or 20 quid or whatever it is isn't enough because actually all those challenges and you just think or you leave it to the last minute you know procrastination leave it to the last minute the dopamine kicks in to eventually do it and then it turns out you thought you had 30 days and it's only 28 days >> done that quite a few times you'd be so stressed you'd go do all of those steps you'd finally return the thing for £50 and then to kind of like soothe the stress you'd go home via the supermarket and spend 60 quid >> exactly this isn't it this is the trouble but I I think it's about being kind to yourself. As long as you can afford it and you're not getting into masses of debt, it's okay to go, do you know what? I've done it again. But it's not the end of the world. Obviously, if you're getting into masses of debt or it's causing real problems from a financial perspective, that's obviously an issue and something else that needs to be approached. But actually, it's again about that kindness filter of just going, do you know what? I've done it again. But then maybe try and remember those steps beforehand so that you think, actually, do I really need this? Shall I wait? Let me see. Maybe try it on in store, which can fill a lot of effort. Actually, rather than buying it online and getting it sent, kind of try and think of a few other solutions instead. >> It's the saying, isn't it? I've got like all of my investments are tied up. All of my money is tied up in investments that all those Amazon boxes that you either haven't opened because oh, I don't even know what's in them anymore or you can't return them. >> No, the ASOS parcels just piled up. >> Should we move on to number three? >> Yes. >> The third one, and that's deep cleaning planned marathons. So, actually likeuling a day to reset the whole flat. Let's say we do the whole flat on a Saturday. >> Yeah. >> Does that work? >> No. >> Question number two. >> No. I think the thing with that is though all good intentions and you're like, I've got a day off or it's the weekend. I'm going to spend all day doing that. Right? >> So, we've not got enough dopamine there to, you know, because we've just got all day. So, what does all day look like? Does that mean till 10:00 at night? Are we going to have intraception challenges where we're going to forget to eat and drink and actually stop and rest? And you can have the best intentions in the world, but actually you don't know what week you're going to have. You don't know what energy you're going to have. And we know us ADHDers like to change our plans and we can wake up on a day and think I had all this planned and actually I'm not feeling it today. And that is the problem with marathons. It it just doesn't work for us. So we need to have sprints. We need short bursts like you know like 20 minutes, 15 minutes, maybe half an hour if you can sustain that. But just staying in one area rather than going I'm going to tidy the whole flat because that's never going to work. And like you were saying earlier, it's going to you're going to get everything out of every cupboard. You're going to go really all deep dive and actually everything's just going to end up in a mess >> and you're probably going to burn out as well. Like you might you might do it cuz you're all very all or nothing but then you're probably going to need like three business days to recover if you do to get through it. >> Exactly. And then that's your weekend when you're meant to be resetting and chilling and just doing nice things anyway. And yes, obviously life gets in the way and we need to do cleaning and things, >> but actually as you say, if you're then that then impacts your Sunday and then maybe your Monday or maybe your Tuesday, that's just not worth it. Like you're just going to burn out like you said and then there's going to be that guilt and that shame spiral and kind of round and round it goes. >> So you're saying rather than doing a whole day like little sprints, like a five minute timer. >> Yes. Yeah. I think timers are amazing. Anything that where you can like gify it M >> so whether it's you go right I'm going to do this for 5 minutes 10 minutes and I'm going to see how quickly I can do it so I'm going to see how quickly I can do the hoovering if I set my timer for 5 minutes or what you can do is do songs like I was saying so you find two great songs or an old song that's 5 minutes go right until the end of this song I know I've got to try and get as much done and then don't forget the rewards right and we need a reward quite instantly and the reward can be really small it can just be like and now I'm going to make myself a cup of tea or now I'm going to have that snack I don't believe that food and drink should be rewards as in you cannot have that until you've done it. But I just mean, do you know what? I've got that little chocolate bar on the side. I'm going to have that bag of crisps or that apple or you know, whatever it is. Actually, that's going to be my reward for doing it. Cuz we like rewards, don't we? I also think if you've got partners or maybe you live with flat mates, a thank you. Like I know that my me and my husband quite often will be like, "Just so you know, I've done the washing up today and I've done the hoovering and I've done the laundry." And we're like, "Oh my god, thank you." If anyone else heard us thanking each other for doing these things which other people just think are normal things, they'd probably think it's madness. But actually, when he's just like, "Oh, look. Isn't the kitchen tidy?" You know what I mean? It's just that like, "Oh, yeah. Just that little spike a day for me." >> Yeah. Such a good idea. I feel like my RSD is so bad. I I wouldn't want to let the timer down. >> Okay. Yes, I know what you mean. And also, timers don't always work if you're autistic ADHD, if you're ADHD, cuz actually a timer can feel like panic. So timers may work with some people and for other people they may just be like absolutely not. I am not putting myself under 5 minutes of pressure. This is too much. But maybe you just keep a rough eye on the time and think right it's 11:00 now. I'm going to give it till 11:15 and see how I get on and then decide whether you want to stop or continue. But actually if you just go right but it's about you know taking a room at a time and an area at the time rather than it being I'm going to tidy the whole flat. What about one surface at a time? Like rather than doing the whole kitchen, we just we'll do that little surface over there. Does that break down the overwhelm and get help you get over the start line? >> So that's June bugging, right? So I love June bugging and I think it's got the best name ever. And it's to do with I think little bugs in America, these June bugs in America and basically they tap tap tap tap tap and they keep focusing on the same area of a wing shield. Obviously I had to Google it when I read about this technique and I was like oh my goodness me. So gene bugging is quite amazing and it's basically you take one area. So you might take a table in your kitchen or your dining room or wherever. But actually if it's a big table you just take that one section of the table like you said or a worktop and what you do is you go through and you'll take an item off it. You'll pick it up. Say for example if we look at your lovely shelves you take an item and then you go right that doesn't belong here. I need to go and put it in the bathroom. Right? But then you do not do anything else in the bathroom. You almost have to be quite blinkered and be like, "Right, do not get distracted." And then you go back to the starting point again. Let's say it's the worktop and then you put the other item away and you just keep doing that. But you don't get yourself sidetracked. You keep coming back and June bugging. And if you almost visualize that, that can help because what we can do is we go, "Right, I've seen, you know, we need some new L rolls in the toilets. They're in the kitchen at the moment cuz we've just been for a food shop. So, I'm going to take those up there." Then you're up there in the bathroom going, "Oh, actually that sink needs a bit of a clean." So, okay, I'm going to start to clean the sink. But then you're like, I need a new sponge for that. So, I'm going to go downstairs. And then you're looking at something else under the cupboard and you're like, I've seen a leaky tap. And all of a sudden, you're fixing this leaky tap and actually all you wanted to do is put the toilet roll in the bathroom where it belongs. >> So, June bugging is a really great visual. Just think of yourself like a little bug. Keep coming back to that one spot and then eventually you'll have a tidy area because what ADHDers do is we just go, "Oh, I'm going to tidy." And actually anyone else comes in, it looks like nothing has changed because we've just then focused a bit in the bedroom and a bit in the bathroom and a bit in the kitchen. We've not June bugged. So it's a really great technique. >> That's so good. I feel like it's incredibly expensive sometimes if you like go off on a side quest. It can pull you away from the main thing. Your story there reminded me of when I was cooking spaghetti a couple of months ago, cooking spaghetti on the pan sim simmering away. Yeah. >> And I thought I've heard some advice and that's to clean as you go. So, I got the spoon that I was stirring the spaghetti with and I went over to the sink to clean the spoon. I thought, you know, I'm I'm an adult now. I'm going to work on my executive function. I can clean as I go. Cleaning the spoon under the tap and I realized that I need to get the sponge. The sponge looked really dry. So, I picked up the sponge, put it under the tap, rung all the water out of it. Noticed that the water was really horrible. It was a horrible color. And I thought, how often do you have to replace your sponges? Cuz that's gross. Went on Google, how often do you have to replace your sponges? Apparently, you have to replace them all the time. way more often than I thought. >> I know. I want to know how long you had that sponge for. >> So, I go on Amazon to buy some new sponges, >> of course. >> Get distracted by some glasses, which I thought that set of glasses will go nicely with my with my cutlery. >> Um, this takes 15 minutes. >> Yeah. >> And I'm spaghetti at >> Yeah. Suddenly I go back to the the hob and my spaghetti is horrible. You know, it's it's it's water ridden. Um, and my garlic is charcoal. >> Yeah. >> Like, it's so risky, isn't it? How do you because this is the second point which is clean as you go which which I think is terrible advice and doesn't work for people with ADHD for this particular reason because clean if if you go off on a tangent on a side quest like you can forget about your primary task. >> Yeah. And we just forget exists because we've now moved on because we're bored of cooking. So spaghetti does take them ages to cook and it's a bit boring. So actually we've gone dopamine seeking like you said the side quest. Ooh, what what's going on over here? and then you just get into that and down that rabbit hole and then you forget actually what you're doing. So it's a bit like when you're cooking or something like that. It's a bit like the gene bugging. You are just cooking and that is what you need to be doing. And maybe you've got someone body doubling with you and they're in the kitchen whilst you're cooking or maybe you're on the phone to someone, you know, catching up with them whilst you're cooking, but it's just about focusing on the task in hand because we love to have lots of different things on the go because that's what excites our brains. But actually that's not very good for getting any tasks finished or having spaghetti for tea. Yes. So that that's a brilliant solution, right? So it's kind of like complete the task that you're doing. So in this case, like make the spaghetti, make the bolognese, eat it, and then perhaps rely on body doubling to do all of the cleaning in one go afterwards. >> Yes. Exactly. Or if you've got someone with you, it's like divide and conquer. That's what I always say. So if you're doing the cooking, then your partner's doing the cleaning. So then they can wash up as you go because you're still focusing on the spaghetti. But it's when we're trying to be all things for all people and pull ourselves in different directions that can be the trouble. >> Yeah. Gosh. Task switching can be expensive for us ADHDs. >> It can. And then also the transition to get back into it as well. That's the thing. So you can change tasks and we can do that quite quickly. But it's really difficult getting back into it. And actually it's that understanding actually I'd forgotten I was even cooking spaghetti. What was I even doing here? Because you're now down a rabbit hole of Amazon and glasses. >> My sincerest apologies for interrupting your hyperfocus. Tickets to the ADHD Chatter podcast live theater show are selling fast. I'll be joined on stage by three leading psychiatrists, and we'll be unpacking all things ADHD, how to process a late diagnosis, or ADHD, and of course, the dreaded rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. I really hope you can join me for a night full of validation, laughs, and insights, and one that will remind you that you're not broken, just different, and that you have always been enough. It's on the 19th of May in London. You can find a link to the tickets in the description. I can't wait to meet you in person. Right, Ha. The final one, the final bit of advice that is terrible for us ADHDers, and that is rigid daily cleaning schedules. For example, Monday we'll do the laundry, Tuesday we'll do the bathrooms. >> Like I feel like any schedule that has more than two steps for me just gets kind of filed in the I'll circle back to this in 2029 cabinet and just forgets forgotten about. >> Yeah. Well, firstly, where is this schedule? Is it written down? Is it on a notepad? Is it in our brains? Because if it's in our brains, it's never happening, is it? We've just forgotten about it already. And again, you know, there's that thing, isn't there, where it's like, oh, I clean on a, you know, I'm going to do all the laundry on a Monday, but what if we need something for the Wednesday or something for the Thursday? Or if you're running a family, you know, you've got a whole household and there's PE kits involved in school uniforms or football kits at the weekend. Actually, it doesn't always work like that. And if you are neurody divergent as you well know you know your children may probably well be very much so. So it's that kind of thing as well that almost the whole house has to be involved in that because actually you can be like well you know I'm going to do the washing on a Monday but actually your kids haven't told you they've got piles of stuff in their room or whatever but you know it's about having then a laundry bin that then everything goes in there etc. But I think being really targeted with it is great but actually we just try and self-sabotage. So it's like well no actually and again a bit of the PDA kicks in of like actually no I'm not going to do that because you've told me to as in you yourself you're telling yourself and your brain you know and I think that can happen is the self-sabotage and then you just like no I'm not going to do that today or it then throws you when you need to do the washing more than once a week and you're like well hold on it's now a Thursday and I've got to do washing as well because you know there was more PE this week or sports or I spilled something down myself whatever it is actually that can then be really difficult so I would advise against that. >> Does it help to have to buy multiple items of of things that you use regularly like phone chargers in every room? >> Yes. >> Cleaning sprays and sponges in every room, >> school uniforms, just multiples of things which I know is really difficult and know really, you know, it can be really challenging, but actually the grief and the effort and the energy that it takes. I know that we used to have like spare school ties because the chances are we'd have lost a school tie somewhere along the way. And actually, you then always find it. I have multiple of the same lip glosses I want in my bag, one in the car. You know, I keep lots of things in the car because I know that actually I'm probably going to need them in there. So, yes, multiples of lots of things, if you can afford it, I think is really important and it just makes life a lot easier because then you have a phone charger in the sitting room, in the bedroom, you know, in the car, for example, whatever, then you've always got something with you. Whereas, I think if you've got this just one item, this precious item that you're, you know, you're just always going to lose it, aren't you? Which is really frustrating. Yeah, definitely. I feel like it takes away the sort of I'll do it later barrier. >> Yes, because it's right there, isn't it? You can then just plug your phone in or you can then, you know, with the kids as well, I think it's really helpful to get them involved and be like, "Right, there we go." You know, I just remember we literally had five lots of school uniform. So, you know, five lots of shirts, I think three pairs of trousers to be fair. But then there were just no, everything was hung up. You could see it visually. You know, if you're a grown-up and you're trying to plan your outfits for the week, you know, have them hanging up so you can visually see that's what I'm going to be wearing today and then you know it's clean, etc. rather than trying to scrub around that morning. >> So, so helpful. What's some closing advice, Ha, for anyone watching, anyone listening who who is neurody divergent and and trying to keep their house in order? What's some closing advice for them? >> Be kind to yourself little and often. And I think it's like you don't need to reinvent the wheel. I think there's a real perception of I need to like scrub the bathroom from top to toe. You know, actually, is it okay just to whiz around with a quick bathroom wipe? I know they're not the most environmentally friendly, but actually ADHD attack, etc., just whiz around. You're going to feel a lot better for it as well. And I think it's about remembering the shame that there is no shame. It's okay. You know, body doubling is great, but I just think remembering just be kind to yourself because it's hard enough, isn't it, having ADHD without then stressing over having a tidy house. Yeah. Yeah. Phenomenal advice, Ha. Thank you so so much. Just finally, I'm going to deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest where they wrote a letter to their younger self. And if you kindly read it for us. >> Okay, >> there we go. >> Thank you. Okay, to the next guest. Right. ADHD is not what you think it is. All brains are more different than people think. Be open. Dot dot dot. There is greatness in there. Love heart. I love that. >> Wow, what a closing sentiment. >> Actually, give me goosebumps. I don't know who wrote that, but that is amazing. >> Ha, on behalf of everyone struggling to grapple their brains and keep their house in order, thank you so much. >> Thank you. Thank you so much.